Date   

Arri Cforce Plus motors with different arms?

Saul Oliveira
 

Hello everyone there!

I have seen in the Arri web that they offer some Brackets to mount their cforce Plus motors with arms from Preston (not specifically for Preston but can be us with Preston arms) and for Jerry Hill´s arms.

I always found Arri mount clamp system kind of weak.

Do you use or have seen these configurations working properly?

The brackets are:

 CLM-4 Rod-to-Rod Adapter 15mm, K2.72106.0   for Preston arms

 CLM-4 Rosette Adapter for Hill Bracket, K2.72113.0  for Jerry Hill arms

Best Regards
Saul Oliveira
First AC
Spain


Arri cForce Plus motors compared with Preston´s

Saul Oliveira
 

Hello there!

Did you have a change to compare Arri Cforce Plus motors with Preston motors (speaking about Focus channel) in terms of power and speed?

If yes, what are your conclusions?

Best regards, hope everyone is ok

Saul Oliveira
First AC
Spain


Re: Shooting 8K RAW with a Red Helium

Philip Holland
 

A slightly clearer answer on windowing, cropping, etc.
 
Short explanation about how RED cameras work and it's a bit relevant as the other manufacturers are stepping up their resolution game as well and they are adopting the same sort of mindset generally.
 
RED bodies are multi-resolution/multi-format cameras.  When filming in REDCODE RAW, you select your resolution/format, for instance 8K FF, or 7K WS, 5K HD, or whatever.  Typically the FF format is the DCI aspect ratio of 1.9:1, HD 16x9, WS 2.37:1, etc. 
 
When you select that resolution that is also the format size you are filming at.  This is particularly relevant when filming with something like Monstro where 8K FF is actually VistaVision and around 6K-5K can be considered Super 35mm.  5K for the horizontal FOV purists, 5.5K for the image circle purists.
 
RED allows dual mezzanine or even solo codec recording in ProRes or DNxHR/HD.  If your format is 4K or above you can create a 4K or 2K file.  If you are below 4K you will be limited to a 2K file, there is no upscaling or upsampling.
 
So in short.  REDCODE RAW you are always getting the resolution you are filming at, it is a compressed raw format after all.  ProRes or DNx, you are either getting the resolution you are at or dowsampled to 4K or 2K image.
 
Hope that helps,
 
Phil
 

-----------------
Phil Holland - Cinematographer
http://www.phfx.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0390802/
818 470 0623


Re: Shooting 8K RAW with a Red Helium

deanan@gmail.com
 

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 11:34 PM wey wang <wey.wang@...> wrote:
Compression really only matters when you have high frequency detail in the shot. Things like white water, leaves, a lot of moving grass, that sort of thing. 

Elaborating on that... 
High frequency + high amplitude will stress the encoding and demand a greater percentage of bits per frame for those areas. This will impact shadow areas in frame first with more loss of detail there. 

Motion doesn't affect it. It's the frequency and contrast in the grass that's stressing the compression.

Deanan DaSilva
Playa del Rey, CA

 


Re: Shooting 8K RAW with a Red Helium

wey wang
 

@Rick
I do a mix, depending on the kind of shoot and what's in the scene.

Compression really only matters when you have high frequency detail in the shot. Things like white water, leaves, a lot of moving grass, that sort of thing. 

I'll also adjust based on how many cameras I'm shooting and the kind of content because I don't want my DIT to have to stay super late downloading mags when they don't have to. This also depends on your export settings and presentation screen size. Because, ultimately, we're talking about noise and detail. If something is going to 1080 and youtube, I'm much more willing to go to high compression ratios. If something is intended for theatrical, I'll favor lower compression ratios. Sometimes I'll adjust compression ratio based on the ISO I'm shooting at. The higher the ISO, the lower the compression and vice versa.

In general, I range from 8-16:1

@Adrian
On all reds, the sensor crops when you downres. With the DSMC2 cameras (the ones that can do prores and dnxhd), there is a separate setting for prosres/dnxhd that doesn't affect sensor cropping.

You have your raw r3d resolution (8k, 7k, etc) and then your prores/dnxhd resolution (4k/2k). You are correct that any resolution related to the raw will window or crop.

Best,
-Wey Wang
Cinematographer

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 9:02 PM Adrian O'Toole DOP/ Lighting Cameraman via Cml.News <addotoole=me.com@...> wrote:
The RED Helium doesn’t window when downresed but only when using Shooting Pro Res . The Sensor does window in Raw this maybe explains the confusion from the manual . I spoke directly toRed Europe regarding this last year and they confirmed it even though the manual and online info can be quite confusing especially when you consider the previous versions of Red cams all windowed  . Obviously this doesn’t really help you but is quite useful when deciding which Lens package to use . 


Adrian O'Toole
UK /EU Documenatary Camera
+447788726298
Diary : contact Janie@the diaryagency.com
HEFAT Trained 
USA I VISA 
addotoole@...
www.adrianotoole.co.uk
Skype :adrian otoole
.............................................


On 13 Mar 2019, at 15:00, wey wang <wey.wang@...> wrote:

I shoot RED 8k all the time. The best way to manage filesizes is with compression ratio. When you change resolution, you crop the sensor and will introduce more apparent noise because it's effectively digitally zooming in. This is not to say that you shouldn't shoot at lower resolutions. You should test the camera and see how you like the image at different resolutions and compression ratios.

Resolution and compression ratio are also dependent on your output requirements and expected presentation screensize. The smaller the screen, the more noise is tolerable. 

HtH!

Wey Wang
Cinematographer


On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 7:06 AM Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote:

No, it says the exact opposite, it does not downscale so if you go 4K it will crop…

 

cheers 
Geoff Boyle NSC
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076

www.gboyle.nl

www.cinematography.net

 

 

From: cml-ac@... <cml-ac@...> On Behalf Of Rick Gibbs via Cml.News
Sent: 13 March 2019 13:01
To: cml-ac@...
Subject: Re: [cml-ac] Shooting 8K RAW with a Red Helium

 

Thanks for your comments ...

Upon further reading of the Helium operation guide, I see where it states: "The camera does not downscale from full format when recording RAW."

That says to me we should be able to shoot at 4K, RAW to get the full sensor. Will try this on our next test to see if we can get files down to a more 'civilized' size.

 

Rick G





Re: Shooting 8K RAW with a Red Helium

Adrian O'Toole DOP/ Lighting Cameraman
 

The RED Helium doesn’t window when downresed but only when using Shooting Pro Res . The Sensor does window in Raw this maybe explains the confusion from the manual . I spoke directly toRed Europe regarding this last year and they confirmed it even though the manual and online info can be quite confusing especially when you consider the previous versions of Red cams all windowed  . Obviously this doesn’t really help you but is quite useful when deciding which Lens package to use . 


Adrian O'Toole
UK /EU Documenatary Camera
+447788726298
Diary : contact Janie@the diaryagency.com
HEFAT Trained 
USA I VISA 
addotoole@...
www.adrianotoole.co.uk
Skype :adrian otoole
.............................................


On 13 Mar 2019, at 15:00, wey wang <wey.wang@...> wrote:

I shoot RED 8k all the time. The best way to manage filesizes is with compression ratio. When you change resolution, you crop the sensor and will introduce more apparent noise because it's effectively digitally zooming in. This is not to say that you shouldn't shoot at lower resolutions. You should test the camera and see how you like the image at different resolutions and compression ratios.

Resolution and compression ratio are also dependent on your output requirements and expected presentation screensize. The smaller the screen, the more noise is tolerable. 

HtH!

Wey Wang
Cinematographer


On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 7:06 AM Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote:

No, it says the exact opposite, it does not downscale so if you go 4K it will crop…

 

cheers 
Geoff Boyle NSC
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076

www.gboyle.nl

www.cinematography.net

 

 

From: cml-ac@... <cml-ac@...> On Behalf Of Rick Gibbs via Cml.News
Sent: 13 March 2019 13:01
To: cml-ac@...
Subject: Re: [cml-ac] Shooting 8K RAW with a Red Helium

 

Thanks for your comments ...

Upon further reading of the Helium operation guide, I see where it states: "The camera does not downscale from full format when recording RAW."

That says to me we should be able to shoot at 4K, RAW to get the full sensor. Will try this on our next test to see if we can get files down to a more 'civilized' size.

 

Rick G





Re: Shooting 8K RAW with a Red Helium

Rick Gibbs
 

Thanks for your help.
Thus far we have done all our tests at 12:1 compression.
What compression do you regularly shoot at?

Rick

On Wednesday, March 13, 2019, 3:12:38 PM ADT, wey wang <wey.wang@...> wrote:


I shoot RED 8k all the time. The best way to manage filesizes is with compression ratio. When you change resolution, you crop the sensor and will introduce more apparent noise because it's effectively digitally zooming in. This is not to say that you shouldn't shoot at lower resolutions. You should test the camera and see how you like the image at different resolutions and compression ratios.

Resolution and compression ratio are also dependent on your output requirements and expected presentation screensize. The smaller the screen, the more noise is tolerable.

HtH!

Wey Wang
Cinematographer


On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 7:06 AM Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote:

No, it says the exact opposite, it does not downscale so if you go 4K it will crop…

 

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076

www.gboyle.nl

www.cinematography.net

 

 

From: cml-ac@... <cml-ac@...> On Behalf Of Rick Gibbs via Cml.News
Sent: 13 March 2019 13:01
To: cml-ac@...
Subject: Re: [cml-ac] Shooting 8K RAW with a Red Helium

 

Thanks for your comments ...

Upon further reading of the Helium operation guide, I see where it states: "The camera does not downscale from full format when recording RAW."

That says to me we should be able to shoot at 4K, RAW to get the full sensor. Will try this on our next test to see if we can get files down to a more 'civilized' size.

 

Rick G


Re: Shooting 8K RAW with a Red Helium

wey wang
 

I shoot RED 8k all the time. The best way to manage filesizes is with compression ratio. When you change resolution, you crop the sensor and will introduce more apparent noise because it's effectively digitally zooming in. This is not to say that you shouldn't shoot at lower resolutions. You should test the camera and see how you like the image at different resolutions and compression ratios.

Resolution and compression ratio are also dependent on your output requirements and expected presentation screensize. The smaller the screen, the more noise is tolerable.

HtH!

Wey Wang
Cinematographer


On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 7:06 AM Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote:

No, it says the exact opposite, it does not downscale so if you go 4K it will crop…

 

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076

www.gboyle.nl

www.cinematography.net

 

 

From: cml-ac@... <cml-ac@...> On Behalf Of Rick Gibbs via Cml.News
Sent: 13 March 2019 13:01
To: cml-ac@...
Subject: Re: [cml-ac] Shooting 8K RAW with a Red Helium

 

Thanks for your comments ...

Upon further reading of the Helium operation guide, I see where it states: "The camera does not downscale from full format when recording RAW."

That says to me we should be able to shoot at 4K, RAW to get the full sensor. Will try this on our next test to see if we can get files down to a more 'civilized' size.

 

Rick G


Re: Shooting 8K RAW with a Red Helium

Geoff Boyle
 

No, it says the exact opposite, it does not downscale so if you go 4K it will crop…

 

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076

www.gboyle.nl

www.cinematography.net

 

 

From: cml-ac@... <cml-ac@...> On Behalf Of Rick Gibbs via Cml.News
Sent: 13 March 2019 13:01
To: cml-ac@...
Subject: Re: [cml-ac] Shooting 8K RAW with a Red Helium

 

Thanks for your comments ...

Upon further reading of the Helium operation guide, I see where it states: "The camera does not downscale from full format when recording RAW."

That says to me we should be able to shoot at 4K, RAW to get the full sensor. Will try this on our next test to see if we can get files down to a more 'civilized' size.

 

Rick G


Re: Shooting 8K RAW with a Red Helium

Rick Gibbs
 

Thanks for your comments ...
Upon further reading of the Helium operation guide, I see where it states: "The camera does not downscale from full format when recording RAW."
That says to me we should be able to shoot at 4K, RAW to get the full sensor. Will try this on our next test to see if we can get files down to a more 'civilized' size.

Rick G


Re: Shooting 8K RAW with a Red Helium

Geoff Boyle
 

When we did the CML camera tests we found that for FF we shot the Helium at 7K and the Monstro at 8K.

 

We also shot with the minimum compression we could get, I’m sorry I can’t remember what that was and there doesn’t appear to be info on this in the metadata.

 

They are large files 😊

 

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076

www.gboyle.nl

www.cinematography.net

 

 

From: cml-ac@... <cml-ac@...> On Behalf Of rick_1997 via Cml.News
Sent: 12 March 2019 22:34
To: cml-ac@...
Subject: [cml-ac] Shooting 8K RAW with a Red Helium

 

Hi Everyone,

We're about to start a show with a new Red Helium. I am unfamiliar with this camera. After a few tests, it appears we have to shoot 8K in order to get the benefits of the full frame sensor. Anything less than 8k seems we'd be using less than the full frame (according to the specs). Our DP prefers to record in Raw rather than ProRes. My concern is file size and overloading the DIT process of transferring to HD. The test we did showed a 1 - minute shot taking up 5.5 GB on the card. Compression was set at 12:1. And when we read the file info in Resolve it showed the shot at 4K ... not 8k.

Anyone had experience shooting Red at 8k Raw?
Any pointers would be GREATLY appreciated.
Rick G


Re: Shooting 8K RAW with a Red Helium

vonthomas@...
 

If you're using Resolve free version, you will not get an 8K option, you'll need Resolve Studio for that.  Also, why tax your system, I'd keep it 1080P in Davinci, then export 8K if you need it, but if passing on to an editor, 8K might be a bit too heavy.  I'm grading an 8K feature, but my timeline is NOT 8K.


Von Thomas
Colorist
Mobile Hero Post
Culver City, CA


Shooting 8K RAW with a Red Helium

Rick Gibbs
 

Hi Everyone,

We're about to start a show with a new Red Helium. I am unfamiliar with this camera. After a few tests, it appears we have to shoot 8K in order to get the benefits of the full frame sensor. Anything less than 8k seems we'd be using less than the full frame (according to the specs). Our DP prefers to record in Raw rather than ProRes. My concern is file size and overloading the DIT process of transferring to HD. The test we did showed a 1 - minute shot taking up 5.5 GB on the card. Compression was set at 12:1. And when we read the file info in Resolve it showed the shot at 4K ... not 8k.

Anyone had experience shooting Red at 8k Raw?
Any pointers would be GREATLY appreciated.
Rick G


Re: Arri Mini and cold

Zachary Kertesz
 

Charles, 
To add to a few of the recommendations mentioned earlier which all sound helpful. For the several cold weather encounters I've had, here's a few tricks i've learned.  

The two things you're fighting are obviously cold and humidity, if you warm things up too much you're going to cause condensation. 

Hand warmers are your friend but at the same time are difficult to regulate temperature, keeping spare batteries in an inexpensive insulated cooler bag, toss enough hand warmers to keep the ambient temperature within the normal operating conditions recommended by the manufacturer. 
(anton bauer's are for instance within their current operating range) 
Discharging Temperature-4 to 140°F / -20 to 60°C

This being said, the shark fin to maintain steady 10A should help, and try covering the batteries with some insulating material and adding hand warmers to the mix, you may be able to get a more consistent draw of power from them. 

Secondly if sending the lens set to be re greased is a tall order, there are several types of lens heaters that could assist you in this.  Being that you have super speeds and their telescoping nature it may be difficult to attach, and again subtle temperature shift is what you're after not rapid change, There are lens heaters that attach to a 3 pin fischer output, if you have available from your rental shop. There are also a plethora of 12v cheap models available which use USB or other generic flying lead connections, "Telescope condensation prevention" seems to be the search term to yield the most results. 

Other things to try that come to mind, 
Mylar blankets - handy in any cold or hot environment to keep radiant heat in or out. 
Adhesive flexible rubber heaters 12v/24v (possibly enough to keep your motors warm) 

Best of luck and stay warm! 
z
--
Zachary Kertesz 
ICG 600 Camera Assistant 
NYC


On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 6:39 AM Adrian O'Toole DOP/ Lighting Cameraman via Cml.News <addotoole=me.com@...> wrote:
Hi Charles 

Done many a job in these situations . What Tomasso  says are all good suggestions . If you and use an off camera battery plate cable into the camera and have the battery inside the operators pocket preferably stick a hand warmer in there also . If you have any neoprene with you try and insulate the power cable so it does not become brittle . The operators body temperature should keep the batteries warm . 

All the best 

A


Adrian O’Toole
Documentary  Cameraman
+447788726298
Diary : contact Janie@the diaryagency.com
addotoole@...
www.adrianotoole.co.uk
Skype :adrian otoole
.............................................
eyecandyproductionsltd
Registered Office:
4 Pyegrove,
Glossop,
Derbyshire,
SK13 8RA
Registered in England
No.8974866
VAT reg: 185 4859 57

On 12 Mar 2019, at 10:06, Tommaso Alvisi <info@...> wrote:

Hey Charles,

been there indeed...a few solutions that worked for us in the past:

- performing a re-grease on the SS set with more cold-friendly grease if schedule allows and a facility is near
- using a dual V-Lock parallel adapter plate for using 2x V-Locks and so having more amperes coming off both at the same time
- hands/feet warmer gaffed to the batteries! ;-)

Hope it helps!
T.

Tommaso Alvisi // Cinematographer
info@... // +39 347 1002000




Re: Arri Mini and cold

Adrian O'Toole DOP/ Lighting Cameraman
 

Hi Charles 

Done many a job in these situations . What Tomasso  says are all good suggestions . If you and use an off camera battery plate cable into the camera and have the battery inside the operators pocket preferably stick a hand warmer in there also . If you have any neoprene with you try and insulate the power cable so it does not become brittle . The operators body temperature should keep the batteries warm . 

All the best 

A


Adrian O’Toole
Documentary  Cameraman
+447788726298
Diary : contact Janie@the diaryagency.com
addotoole@...
www.adrianotoole.co.uk
Skype :adrian otoole
.............................................
eyecandyproductionsltd
Registered Office:
4 Pyegrove,
Glossop,
Derbyshire,
SK13 8RA
Registered in England
No.8974866
VAT reg: 185 4859 57

On 12 Mar 2019, at 10:06, Tommaso Alvisi <info@...> wrote:

Hey Charles,

been there indeed...a few solutions that worked for us in the past:

- performing a re-grease on the SS set with more cold-friendly grease if schedule allows and a facility is near
- using a dual V-Lock parallel adapter plate for using 2x V-Locks and so having more amperes coming off both at the same time
- hands/feet warmer gaffed to the batteries! ;-)

Hope it helps!
T.

Tommaso Alvisi // Cinematographer
info@... // +39 347 1002000




Re: Arri Mini and cold

Tommaso Alvisi
 

Hey Charles,

been there indeed...a few solutions that worked for us in the past:

- performing a re-grease on the SS set with more cold-friendly grease if schedule allows and a facility is near
- using a dual V-Lock parallel adapter plate for using 2x V-Locks and so having more amperes coming off both at the same time
- hands/feet warmer gaffed to the batteries! ;-)

Hope it helps!
T.

Tommaso Alvisi // Cinematographer
info@... // +39 347 1002000



Arri Mini and cold

P Debris
 

I have been on a production since November 
Arri Mini
Super Speeds
Almost all EXT.
And I am starting to have motor trouble in temperatures between C -10 and -30 aka F 14 to -22...
I never had this problem with the old
UMC 4a And CLM 3.
The problem seems to be worse if batteries are
-Below 12,5 volts 
-batteries smaller than 190 watts
(Because of flight rules we had to use 90 watt batteries when in Spitzbergen, motors didn’t work at all. Luckily I had brought a FF 4)

Charles Curran 
Norway 


Re: Buying an Arri Alexa Mini

Geoff Boyle
 

As someone who has looked very closely at all the current cameras, I can state unequivocally that the Alexa sensors is still ahead of EVERY other camera in terms of DR.

I showed this clearly at IBC on a very large screen in Dolby Cinema.

Now, this is only one aspect of a camera’s response. There are cameras that have lower noise, cameras that have more consistent colour across exposures, cameras that have dual EI, cameras that have AF, cameras that have more complicated menus! cameras that have more cost-effective recording solutions.

 

I could go on and on, but the point is that a camera is not just one metric, it’s a combination of many and that combination changes from job to job, market to market and crew to crew.

 

It’s that global entirety that matters.

 

So, Alexa ticks the global box for movies, at the moment.

 

Other cameras are more successful in other areas.

 

There is no universal camera.

 

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076

www.gboyle.nl

www.cinematography.net

 

 

From: cml-ac@... <cml-ac@...> On Behalf Of Art Adams

 

>Others have caught up

 

I think this depends on who you talk to and how hard they push the images. I think there are a number of cameras that look really good under normal circumstances. It’s the other circumstances that determine whether you get to go back to work the next day.

 

,_


Re: Buying an Arri Alexa Mini

Feli di Giorgio
 


>>Others have caught up


I still haven’t seen another camera that handles over exposure and highlight roll off as good as the Alexa…

That’s probably because the Alexa has the only sensor that employs a bracketed dual gain read approach.

And just like the camera itself the footage is stupid simple to work with.  It’s also as reliable as a hockey puck.

Personally I like the lower 2.8k resolution. Makes actors, costumes and sets look great and delivers that layer of abstraction from reality that is commonly known as movie magic.


That said I am impressed with the Venice.



Feli di Giorgio

VFX
Los Angeles



_______________________________________________
Feli di Giorgio - feli2@... - www.felidigiorgio.com





Re: Buying an Arri Alexa Mini

Jonathan Gentry
 

>>Others have caught up

>I think this depends on who you talk to and how hard they push the images. 

That's really the point of my response.  It's possible to make a near equiv image, but the effort it takes to get you there is the reason the industry has chosen and stuck with this sensor.  For those that like to tweak, the other cameras can be "fun."