Topics

Do we really want the ARRI LF ?

Mako Koiwai
 


s35xFF expander

I would test a lot before using any such device.


*********

Basically just a tele extender. We already use a 1.1X to cover 6K with RED Epics. They have specific optimized ones for the 24/290 and 17/80.


makofoto, s. pasadena, ca

Art Adams
 

The lens illumination guide is a great tool, and they've only recently added support for the LF. I, too, hope that other lenses will be added in the near future. Each image is captured in camera, they aren't emulations.

The one thing to be aware of is that the default view is at close focus, while the critical end is at infinity.

I was surprised to read that Altered Carbon, which is shot on the Alexa 65 in 5K mode, uses Canon cinema primes for wider shots and Cooke S4s for longer lens work and closeups. Ultra Primes look like they'll cover the same area beyond about 20mm or so. (I believe the crop factor is 1.4-ish.)

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area

miga@...
 

I just went to a presentation on the Alexa LF at the Berlinale. During the presentation a tool on the ARRI website was shown that I hadn't noticed before. It's a tool that can tell you which part of the sensor will be illuminated by which lens. Unfortunately, the tool currently only shows results of ARRI's own lenses, but they are working on getting other brands in there as well. On the camera-end it works for all types in the Alexa & Amira family. 
I thought it was a promising tool, since it will take away the uncertainty of will this lens cover the UHD part of the LF sensor. It's found under: https://www.arri.com/camera/alexa_mini/tools/arri_lens_illumination_guide/

Hopefully they will add support for a broad range of other and older lenses soon. 

--
Miga Bär
DI / Image-Postproduction
Amsterdam, the Netherlands

Rodrigo Lizana Lamarca
 

That's called "shoot VariCam ".

Haha. That’s true. Very fond of the old Varicam. Got the first DVCPRO HD One back in 2004 if I’m not mistaken. Real game changer at the time. It was 720p only and there was the very same arguments over 720p versus 1080psf from the Sony 900 as today with 2k and 4k. Maybe that’s when the resolution/pixel war really started.

Rodrigo Lizana
Pixine Ltda.
Santiago
Chile

Mitch Gross
 

On Feb 6, 2018, at 1:21 PM, Rodrigo Lizana Lamarca <rlizana@...> wrote:

I think that most people (not big rentals) are waiting for a true S35 4k Arri


That's called "shoot VariCam ". 

Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager 
Panasonic Media Entertainment Company
New York


Thomas Gleeson
 


Daniel writes:  "If the producer wants the latest-greatest, you can either use an LF or have him taken out back and shot. Your call. ;-)"


I want to work with your producers. My experience has always seen me arguing for better (more expensive) cameras and lenses. Maybe its just my world but producers usually prefer cheaper over than "Latest-greatest." Although they especially love cheaper and latest and greatest.

Do not read my argument that using shallow focus is somehow a replacement for blocking, staging and direction. My argument is simply that a larger sensor will allow me more focus separation when I choose to use it.

IMHO it can be a beautiful thing seeing focus separation on wide FOV shots. It adds a wonderful sense of depth. But pick your poison.

Many Thanks
Tom Gleeson
Sydney DOP

 
_._,_._,_

Daniel Drasin
 

Thomas Gleeson writes:  "No one is likely gonna make you use an Arri LF if you don’t want to. All the XTs and Minis aren’t going to be taken out the back and shot."

If the producer wants the latest-greatest, you can either use an LF or have him taken out back and shot. Your call. ;-)

In my semi-retirement I tend to deal with lightweight clients who don't care what tools I use as long as we get the job done. Not everyone has that luxury.


Geoff writes:  "Any competent cinematographer can make the viewer look where they want whatever the focal length and stop."

Sometimes it depends on blocking, staging and direction, but for the most part I'd agree. I shot two feature docs on mini-DV with Really Small Sensors, and at no time did lighting and composition fail to deliver the goods. There were very few instances where I'd have wanted shallower DOF and couldn't back the camera off far enough. Decades of shooting 16mm docco were very good discipline in this regard.

Mr. Toland... Mr. Gregg Toland.. to the white courtesy ouijaboard, please...


Dan "Always in focus, whether you wanted it or not" Drasin
Producer/DP
Marin County, CA

Thomas Gleeson
 

OMG so much old man grumpiness! Damm kids with their fandangled gadgets. No one is likely gonna make you use an Arri LF if you don’t want to. All the XTs and Minis aren’t going to be taken out the back and shot. No one will force you to shoot wfo on every shot. The LF and large sensor cameras will suit some gigs and not others. I so hate to say it but its just another tool in the box.
Undoubtably somebody is gonna shoot their whole show super shallow and that wont be to ever bodies taste. I’m looking at you “Altered Carbon.” IMHO I don’t believe super shallow suits narrative drama although it can be very effective in quick cut TVCs. But I believe having focus separation on wide lenses is a major win as it creates a wonderful increased sense of depth. Try it.
I have shot some TVC’s with the Monstro (love it) but I am yet to shoot a major project with a bigger than S35 sensor but I am thinking of exploring new possibilities. I have always disliked that wide shots with infinite focus intercutting with shallow close ups. While longer lenses on S35 don’t really need to be shallower IMHO wider FOV shots do. I am thinking of the possibility of a variable stop protocol where the widest lenses are set at F2 maybe the mids at F2.8 and longer lenses at F4 or F5.6?
Another possibility is only using the full frame of the sensor for the widest lenses and incrementally windowing down the sensor as the lenses go longer? It all sounds fun to me?

So if anybody gets an Alexa LF for Christmas and wants to regift I’ll have it as I would love to play.

Sent from my combobulator
Tom Gleeson
Sydney DOP

 

I spend quite a bit of time pointing out that background and location is part of the story telling.  If you see a person in a white coat with a lab behind them you don’t really need to explain that the person is a scientist.   

Michael J Sanders: Director of Photography 
  
Reel/credits  www.mjsanders.co.uk   M:07976 269818   Linkline Diary: 020 8426 2200    twitter: @hackneydp 

On 7 Feb 2018, at 06:27, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:

I’ve had people say they need the backgrounds to be out of focus to make sure the audience is looking in the right place, that’s just plain crap.

Geoff Boyle
 

I’ve made myself unpopular in the past by saying in workshops that long lenses & open apertures are the retreat of the incompetent.

 

It’s easy to light a shot where all you can see is a head, it’s easy for the art department when you can’t clearly see the background, it’s easy to match shots when most of the shot is soft.

 

Easy does not mean good, in fact easy is often the enemy of good.

 

Whilst I have shot commercials and movies wide open most of my work has been in the T4 to T5.6 range. That’s with ISO 500 rated at 320. More recently with cameras rated at ISO 800 but exposed at ISO 400.

 

I’ve had people say they need the backgrounds to be out of focus to make sure the audience is looking in the right place, that’s just plain crap. Any competent cinematographer can make the viewer look where they want whatever the focal length and stop.

 

/rant off

 

Geoff Boyle

DP

Netherlands

 

From: cml-general@... [mailto:cml-general@...] On Behalf Of Rakesh Malik
Sent: Tuesday, 6 February 2018 18:35
To: cml-general@...
Subject: Re: [general] Do we really want the ARRI LF ?

 

Thank you. I've long believed that the obsession with pointlessly shallow depth of field is a result of people replacing "blocking, framing, and lighting" with "rule of thirds" and calling it done.


 

Argyris_Theos_cml
 

s35xFF expander

I would test a lot before using any such device.


Argyris Theos, gsc
DoP, Athens Greece,
theos@...
+306944725315
Skype Argyris.Theos
www.vimeo.com/argyristheos
via iPhone

Mark Kenfield
 

I'm a little confused by the ire around this. People banging on about needing the absolute latest in camera technology, but complaining that it doesn't allow older lens technology to keep up with it.

Cooke S7s
Leica Thalias
Arri Signatures
Zeiss CZ.2 Zooms
Angenieux Zooms
Hawk65 Anamorphics
Panavision Primo 70s
Panavision Sphero 65s
Panavision System 65s
Ultra Panavision 70 Anamorphics
Super Panavision 70s
P&S Technic 1.5x Anamorphic Zooms
Sigma Cine Primes
Tokina Vistas
Schneider Xenons
Canon CN-Es
Zeiss CP.3s
Celere HS
Rokinon Xeens

You could not (reasonably) argue that we're limited in high-quality lens choice for Vistavision-sized sensors these days. There are both pristine modern optics and coatings, and majorly funky vintage options available.

And if you absolutely, positively MUST have S35mm coverage with 30% more resolution than Arri's S35mm offerings can give you - there's Sony, Red, Panasonic and Canon to turn to (all of whom have excellent offerings available).

So surely we're spoilt for choice here... or is there something I'm missing here?

Cheers,

Mark Kenfield
Cinematographer
Brno, Czech Republic (for two more days)

www.dreamsmiths.com.au
mark@...
+61 400 044 500

Colemar Nichols
 

Marc Shipman-Mueller wrote:
“The original D-20 sensor development was partially funded by an EU project. Since then, continued sensor development and camera development costs millions. “

I get that we want something new from Arri, but there is no rush.  There are still many stories that can be and should be told with what we have.  I’m currently shooting a period piece on the Alexa Studio and D-21 with 40+ year old glass and couldn’t be happier with the footage.  Arri’s digital cinema products have been the best for over 10 years and still are.  

Colemar Nichols
DoP
New Mexico

Rita Aguilar
 

I just saw an ad by Bandpro announcing a new s35xFF expander by IBE optics made to address the problems of s35 lens coverage on the LF sensor. This may have some drawbacks such as loss of resolution and loss of light (maybe up to 2 stops) but it also lets one use the wider angle lenses that don't cover the LF sensor. 

Pedro Emauz
DF / DP
Lisboa, PT


On 06/02/2018, at 22:20, Tim Sassoon via Cml.News <tsassoon=aol.com@...> wrote:

I presume ARRI are developing a new sensor, but that especially for a smaller specialist company (i.e. not Sony) with high performance expectations, that’s a multi-year task.


Tim Sassoon
Venice, CA




On Feb 6, 2018, at 1:44 PM, Michael Brennan <hd24@...> wrote:

Maybe bolting two existing sensors together costs more than developing a new one, is that your point? 

Tim Sassoon
 

I presume ARRI are developing a new sensor, but that especially for a smaller specialist company (i.e. not Sony) with high performance expectations, that’s a multi-year task.


Tim Sassoon
Venice, CA




On Feb 6, 2018, at 1:44 PM, Michael Brennan <hd24@...> wrote:

Maybe bolting two existing sensors together costs more than developing a new one, is that your point? 

Michael Brennan
 

Come on Greg, are you saying ARRI have not demonstrated they are, in comparison, spending less $$ on sensor development than others?

Introducing a new camera using a sensor the development cost of which is presumably well and truely paid for over a decade, yet at a stella price? 


None of us pretend to know everything about everything, but as customers we can compare the value and features of cameras and their price points.

Maybe bolting two existing sensors together costs more than developing a new one, is that your point? 

As I said in my post, “on the face of it”....


Mike Brennan
DP
Melbourne

The contents of this email are confidential

On 7 Feb 2018, at 5:02 am, Greg Lowry <cml@...> wrote:

Sometimes the ignorance on display here with respect to what goes into
technology development is stunning.

Greg Lowry
Scopica Group
Vancouver

p.s. Not sure why my message was sent twice. I'm sending it again with
the typo correction.

On 6 Feb 2018, at 1:38, Michael Brennan wrote:

On the face of it, why the compatibly high prices if they haven’t
spent apparently spent a dime developing a new sensor in a decade?

The sensor was designed by an entity partially funded through
government in the first place!

Rodrigo Lizana Lamarca
 

Yes you’re right. Dark was shot with Alexa 65 and Ultraprimes, lenses that goes from 8mm up to 180mm. But there are many other s35mm lenses that might not work. Superspeeds ?. 2.1 Zeiss ?. S4’s ?. 12x Optimo ?. What about 2x anamorphics ?. All this lenses are industry standards.
I think that most people (not big rentals) are waiting for a true S35 4k Arri or a new camera with significant improvements in the color/DR deparment. I prefer the second over 4k any day. Also I’m still having a hard time to make clients shot Arriraw or UHD because of the extra data/cost. So I guess the extra resolution is not really a priority for most of them !.

Rodrigo Lizana
Pixine Ltda.
Santiago
Chile

Nick Morrison
 

I don't think it's accurate to say you have to shoot Alexa LF with Large Format lenses.

A number of s35 sets cover more than you think.

Look at these two articles by Arri themselves, about the filming of the German thriller "Dark" for Netflix:

http://www.arri.com/news/news/netflix-series-dark-a-full-arri-package/

http://www.arrirentalgroup.com/news/news_11_2017_04.html

Notice in the second article, they mention shooting Alexa 65 windowed down to 4.3K (ie very close to Alexa LF):

"Another aspect that enabled us to go with the ALEXA 65 was that we didn’t use the full 6.5K sensor, we used only about 4.3K, which eased data storage and widened lens options. I tested a lot of lenses and felt that the ALEXA 65 with the Ultras gave us a cinematic look with the right contrast and texture I was after for DARK." 

And notice they shot...on Ultraprimes (which I believe have very wide coverage from 28mm upwards, no?).

As 28mm on FF...has a FOV of 18-19mm on Super 35...

___________
Nick Morrison
Founder, Director & Lead Creative
nick@...
646-236-7884
smallgiant.tv



Rodrigo Lizana Lamarca
 

I guess the real question is do you need to own it. If you’re a big rental house with lots of client shooting for Netflix then it should be a must for you. Not sure if Netflix accepts a mix of cameras, say an Alexa 65 as A camera and a Mini for some specific scenes like car interiors, drones, etc. I assume yes otherwise Arri would have to develope a Mini LF. But for people who’s not shooting for Netflix, I can’t see this as good investement. If I’ve understood what I’ve read so far, you can’t achieve 4k with most s35 lenses on the Alexa LF. So you need LF lenses too. With S35 lenses you should be getting the same image as with a regular Alexa. So for big rentals yes, it should be a must. For small rentals with no Netflix productions, I doubt it. Specially with the uncertainty of what Arri might come up with in the s35 area in the next years.

Rodrigo Lizana
Pixine Ltda.
Santiago
Chile

Greg Lowry
 

Sometimes the ignorance on display here with respect to what goes into technology development is stunning.

Greg Lowry Scopica Group Vancouver

p.s. Not sure why my message was sent twice. I'm sending it again with the typo correction. > > On 6 Feb 2018, at 1:38, Michael Brennan wrote: > >> On the face of it, why the compatibly high prices if they haven’t >> spent apparently spent a dime developing a new sensor in a decade? >> >> The sensor was designed by an entity partially funded through >> government in the first place!

Greg Lowry
 

Sometimes the ignorance on display here with respect to what goes into
technology develop is stunning.

Greg Lowry
Scopica Group
Vancouver


On 6 Feb 2018, at 1:38, Michael Brennan wrote:

On the face of it, why the compatibly high prices if they haven’t
spent apparently spent a dime developing a new sensor in a decade?

The sensor was designed by an entity partially funded through
government in the first place!

Rakesh Malik
 

​"I am beyond over that. A concept pushed so far it now mostly just looks 
stupid, large colored blobs of unrecognizable nothingness floating in 
the background. From the POV of a consumer of images (not a set dweeb) 
it's way overused and boring. Find some other clever way to draw my 
attention to the subject, perhaps with blocking, framing, and lighting."

Thank you. I've long believed that the obsession with pointlessly shallow depth of field is a result of people replacing "blocking, framing, and lighting" with "rule of thirds" and calling it done.

-----------------------------

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 8:47 AM, Bob Kertesz <bob@...> wrote:
On 2/6/2018 6:21 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Smaller sensors become problematic once the size of a pixel gets much
smaller
than around 5 micrometers or so, because diffraction starts to limit your
resolution especially at smaller apertures.
I've been waiting for someone to mention this. Once you start closing
down, light bounce and collision/scatter off the edges of the iris
combined with very small pixels lowers effective resolution. In a very
practical sense, at around F8 with a 4K sensor with very small pixels
you may as well be shooting 2-3K in terms of resolving power. Your
mileage may vary.

And all the kids love the reduced depth of field.
I am beyond over that. A concept pushed so far it now mostly just looks
stupid, large colored blobs of unrecognizable nothingness floating in
the background. From the POV of a consumer of images (not a set dweeb)
it's way overused and boring. Find some other clever way to draw my
attention to the subject, perhaps with blocking, framing, and lighting.

-Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California

DIT, Video Controller, and live compositor extraordinaire.

High quality images for more than four decades - whether you've wanted
them or not.©

* * * * * * * * * *

Art Adams
 


On the face of it, why the compatibly high prices if they haven’t spent apparently spent a dime developing a new sensor in a decade?

I find this line of thinking bizarre.

Is the LF just a bigger Alexa? Yes.

Is the LF just a smaller Alexa 65? Yes.

Has this sensor survived eight years with only minor modifications? Yes.

Does it deliver a look that is effectively the gold standard against which all other cameras are judged? Yes.

Is it really hard to make a sensor that does the same thing but crams more pixels into a smaller form factor and yields the same results? Yes.

Does it have enough processing power to run a small city? Yes.

Does it have wireless control and video built in and certified in a hundred countries. I believe so.

Are they working on this? Probably. They would be dumb not to.

Are they going to release it before it’s ready? No.

Will you have to buy it knowing that some key features are not going to be available for, say, six months? No.

Are any other cameras this solid, to the point where you can bake it, shoot with it for weeks in a dust storm or in the arctic, pour coffee through the cooling fan and melt it in a truck fire and expect it to continue running? No.

Are the only changes to the LF in the sensor? No.

Is any of this cheap? No.

Do Arri cameras have a longer lifespan, both physically and in popularity, than any other camera on the market for most of the last decade? Yes.

I spent time with the LF and lenses last night. The camera is basically an Alexa SXTW as far as usability. The lenses are pretty spectacular. LPL is going to be a big thing.

The LF is not for everyone. It’s a really cool camera, and it’s different, but it’s a premium camera. That’s fine. They make other cameras.

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area

Bob Kertesz
 

On 2/6/2018 6:21 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Smaller sensors become problematic once the size of a pixel gets much
smaller
than around 5 micrometers or so, because diffraction starts to limit your
resolution especially at smaller apertures.
I've been waiting for someone to mention this. Once you start closing
down, light bounce and collision/scatter off the edges of the iris
combined with very small pixels lowers effective resolution. In a very
practical sense, at around F8 with a 4K sensor with very small pixels
you may as well be shooting 2-3K in terms of resolving power. Your
mileage may vary.

And all the kids love the reduced depth of field.
I am beyond over that. A concept pushed so far it now mostly just looks
stupid, large colored blobs of unrecognizable nothingness floating in
the background. From the POV of a consumer of images (not a set dweeb)
it's way overused and boring. Find some other clever way to draw my
attention to the subject, perhaps with blocking, framing, and lighting.

-Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California

DIT, Video Controller, and live compositor extraordinaire.

High quality images for more than four decades - whether you've wanted
them or not.©

* * * * * * * * * *

Scott Dorsey
 

Smaller sensors become problematic once the size of a pixel gets much smaller
than around 5 micrometers or so, because diffraction starts to limit your
resolution especially at smaller apertures.

So going to larger sensors does start to become important starting somewhere
in the 4k range. Plus, the larger sensor means dust and dirt are not as
severely enlarged. And all the kids love the reduced depth of field.

There is some rather brief discussion at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffraction-limited_system
but there's a much better discussion in Mees' book.
--scott

Scott Dorsey
Kludge Audio
Williamsburg, VA.

Shipman-Mueller, Marc
 

Please. The original D-20 sensor development was partially funded by an EU project. Since then, continued sensor development and camera development costs millions. And going from a Super 35 to a large format sensor is a huge development effort. Don’t confuse “we are still using the brilliant basic photo site technology” with “we just repurpose existing stuff”.

 

---

 

On the face of it, why the compatibly high prices if they haven’t spent apparently spent a dime developing a new sensor in a decade?

The sensor was designed by an entity partially funded through government in the first place!



Marc Shipman-Mueller
Product Manager Camera Systems

ARRI
Arnold & Richter Cine Technik GmbH & Co. Betriebs KG
Leuchtenburgstr.32, 14165 Berlin
www.arri.com
Tel.: +49 30 8119-5223
Fax: +49 30 8119-5225
Email: msmueller@...


Get all the latest information from www.arri.com, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube.

Arnold & Richter Cine Technik GmbH & Co. Betriebs KG
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martyna K
 

Its a nightmare to shoot hand held with, not possible to put on a gimbal (which i prefer to steadicam), and how am i suppose to use it in a small car... something worth addressing... i cant believe we going back to making cameras big and bulky. It makes me desperately annoyed.

Also working with vintage glass, especially zeiss super speeds, Im already struggling to accommodate Red cameras in their 6K... keep seeing edges of every older lens out there

Perhaps would be good to look into adapting old glass... or i suppose i should just fight with producers to shoot on film. I keep getting asked to shoot in 4K over and over and seriously struggling to convince money people to shoot arri these days.

Best
Martyna Knitter

Michael Brennan
 

On the face of it, why the compatibly high prices if they haven’t spent apparently spent a dime developing a new sensor in a decade?

The sensor was designed by an entity partially funded through government in the first place!


Mike Brennan
DP
Melbourne

George Hupka
 

As someone who does more documentary work, I'm completely in agreement with Geoff.   If I ever need shallower DOF than S35, that to me is a specialty rental.  There are actually many times in the doc world that I would love to have a S16 sensor/glass, but having the right tool for the job seems to be passé these days...

Personally, an Amira or Alexa Mini with an S35 4K sensor (5.2?) would have been something I could justify buying.   Right now the Venice looks a lot more appealing... Or maybe I'll just pick up some used Alexas cheap from people who really, really want a lot of K's in their image.
--

----------
George Hupka
Director/DP
Saskatoon, Canada
Listmum, Cinematography Mailing List

Feli di Giorgio
 

I think the problem is that there still is no s35 DCI 4K Alexa for productions that demand 4K capture.

You still can’t shoot 4K Netflix or Amazon shows on a s35 Alexa body.

If you need 4K and want to shoot Alexa your only options are the LF in FF mode or going all out and shooting the A65.

I hate to say it but Arri may have miscalculated here, by not redesigning the sensor to properly deliver a s35 window.

And before everyone jumps on me as an Arri hater, I am firmly in the ‘Better pixels, not more pixels’ camp and adore my old Alexa EV (and my ancient IIc)...

Feli di Giorgio

VFX / Bay Area


On Feb 5, 2018, at 15:25, Thomas Gleeson <lensboy235@...> wrote:

If you want to go VistaVision (full frame) size sensor hire the LF and if you plan to shoot S35 go the SXT or Mini ? Why would you hire a more expensive LF then window it ? Its the same sensor technology. Lots of productions will suit S35 and others will suit larger sensors.

Steve Oakley
 

because of the need for 4K delivery now… and not just Netflix.

you bring up the other point  : the most non-standard number is the price.  before you say its a mostly rental house item, there are plenty of folks out there that own various flavors of RED, Sony, Canon and even Amiras / Alexas personally. They have an economic model that works for them. clearly this doesn’t fit into that model but producers will be asking for it because they heard the buzz.  sure there are a few DP’s that have bought more expensive film cams back in the day, but thats a handful of people.

Now if you are renting it, the rate for the basic body is gonna easily be 2X the price of almost any other camera. Ditto the rates of the  new primes if they are even available.  On a very practical sense, if you could have a just as good camera package for 1/2 or less as a rental and could then spend that money on : another crew person or three, upgrade the catering, or not worry so much about the OT you can’t avoid, etc I think you know how the money is better spent… assuming you aren’t working in the money is no object world which is pretty small.  

as an owner/operator, its money _out_ of the DP’s pocket,  there is less incentive to rent some one else’s gear when you can use your own and make the money on it.

as a rental house, do you want to dump $250-300K into a set of lenses that fit on exactly ONE camera right now… whats the ROI period ? generally pretty ugly compared to other glass thats 1/2-1/5 the price, in demand, works on all ( or most ) of your cameras in inventory.  so to get the glass to go out, you have to price competitively which would extend the return period into a rather long time frame for the most part… maybe this glass will be so amazing everyone wants it, or maybe not.

so besides the issues present about non-standard frame sizes, image coverage, limited lens selections, overall production workflow there are some economic things to consider which I think are not to be underestimated in the cameras market success.

Steve Oakley
DP / Editor / Colorist / VFX Artist
Madison & Milwaukee WI
920 544 2230


On Feb 5, 2018, at 5:25 PM, Thomas Gleeson <lensboy235@...> wrote:

The new Arri LF sensor certainly has some gotchas when windowed down to S35 but as it will live mainly as rental camera who cares? If you want to go VistaVision (full frame) size sensor hire the LF and if you plan to shoot S35 go the SXT or Mini ? Why would you hire a more expensive LF then window it ? Its the same sensor technology. Lots of productions will suit S35 and others will suit larger sensors. Pick your poison.

Thomas Gleeson
 

The new Arri LF sensor certainly has some gotchas when windowed down to S35 but as it will live mainly as rental camera who cares? If you want to go VistaVision (full frame) size sensor hire the LF and if you plan to shoot S35 go the SXT or Mini ? Why would you hire a more expensive LF then window it ? Its the same sensor technology. Lots of productions will suit S35 and others will suit larger sensors. Pick your poison.

Feli di Giorgio
 


I don’t think that’s going to happen because the size of the photo sites is fixed in hardware and dictates the image circle of the UHD / 4k window. 
You can’t physically change hardware with a software update. The LF sensor is what it is. 

I understand how Arri ended up here. Given that they carried over the existing sensor the UHD/4k window is dictated by the size of the individual photo sites. So, unless they redesigned the sensor with a greater pixel density they didn’t have much of a choice.

Feli di Giorgio

VFX / Bay Area



On Feb 4, 2018, at 10:02 PM, Diego <hifidg@...> wrote:

Ok, here is what I believe is happening (maybe making a crazy guess, but looking at their marketing and client fidelity I think this makes a whole lot of sense):

They are making their first large format for sale camera, thats ALL!

Punchline: They will wait another year or two years to make a “firmware update to the LF” that will have a 4096 pixel count windowing option, this release I believe will also be covered by most s35 glass they themselves have so much invested on (I mean... do you guys REALLY think they would have put out those insanely expensive Zeiss Master Anamorphics without knowing that their investment in R&D and manufacturing wasnt gonna pay off for years to come? This is Arri we are talking about, no?) and in that same year - god I wish I knew when this is going to happen - release their 4K (or 4069 aka “Netflix and VOD friendly” set of cameras -btw, screw you Netflix if anyone is listening) Mini and Amira versions to give the previous owner operators of these “older” model cameras the opportunity to recover their investment. And at the same time before the release, they will be building a market for LF cameras and LF glass of their own with the new mount THAT EVEN PANAVISION has agreed to make adaptors and lenses for...

Diego Gilly
Cinematographer
Instagram: @dgilly
LA / NY

_______________________________________________
Feli di Giorgio - feli2@... - www.felidigiorgio.com





Jordan Cushing
 

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 05:13 am, Jad Beyrouthy wrote:
they might add a s35 4k compatible workflow for their existing lenses.
I don't see how this would be possible without a sensor upgrade.  Perhaps that's in the roadmap, but as it stands it would be the same as an up-resed Alexa. 

Talking to people at the BSC show, there wasn't as much enthusiasm about this camera as one might have expected.
--
Jordan Cushing
DOP
London Milan

Jad Beyrouthy
 

Good point Diego! 

Launching a large format Alexa with the same color fidelity and performance arri’s customers are used to makes a lot of sense. 

It gets arri back in competition with the new large format cameras and lets them get into Netflix and other networks market.

The updates will come later as usual with arri they might add a s35 4k compatible workflow for their existing lenses.

I see this camera as a very versatile tool that gives productions a variety of formats and lenses.

Cheers!


Jad Beyrouthy
Cinematographer | Colorist
M: 00961 3 083975
E: jad@...
W: www.greenbeansproductions.com
W: www.jadbeyrouthy.com 
The company accepts no liability for the content of this email, or for the consequences of any actions taken on the basis of the information provided, unless that information is subsequently confirmed in writing. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.

On Feb 5, 2018, at 08:02, Diego via Cml.News <hifidg=yahoo.com@...> wrote:

Ok, here is what I believe is happening (maybe making a crazy guess, but looking at their marketing and client fidelity I think this makes a whole lot of sense):

They are making their first large format for sale camera, thats ALL!

Diego
 

Ok, here is what I believe is happening (maybe making a crazy guess, but looking at their marketing and client fidelity I think this makes a whole lot of sense):

They are making their first large format for sale camera, thats ALL!

Punchline: They will wait another year or two years to make a “firmware update to the LF” that will have a 4096 pixel count windowing option, this release I believe will also be covered by most s35 glass they themselves have so much invested on (I mean... do you guys REALLY think they would have put out those insanely expensive Zeiss Master Anamorphics without knowing that their investment in R&D and manufacturing wasnt gonna pay off for years to come? This is Arri we are talking about, no?) and in that same year - god I wish I knew when this is going to happen - release their 4K (or 4069 aka “Netflix and VOD friendly” set of cameras -btw, screw you Netflix if anyone is listening) Mini and Amira versions to give the previous owner operators of these “older” model cameras the opportunity to recover their investment. And at the same time before the release, they will be building a market for LF cameras and LF glass of their own with the new mount THAT EVEN PANAVISION has agreed to make adaptors and lenses for...

I mean, this sounds -from a marketing and client loyalty standpoint- like an absolutely brilliant move from Arri in my opinion... And they get to keep that magic sensor and pixel size I, and many more are such massive supporters of... i mean... 🔝🔝🔝🔝

But then again. Maybe Im wrong 😂

Great thread this one! Thanks again Geoff, you rule!

Best,

Diego Gilly
Cinematographer
Instagram: @dgilly
LA / NY


On Feb 4, 2018, at 10:27 AM, Feli di Giorgio <feli2@...> wrote:



On Feb 4, 2018, at 9:51 AM, Michael Sanders <glowstars@...> wrote:

I suspect Arri will have taken this into consideration during product development :-)

Michael J Sanders
Director of Photography/Cinematographer  

Of course they did, but that doesn’t change the fact that apparently their UHD window won’t be covered by the image circle of most s35 lenses. If you’re fine with that then you’re covered (no pun intended), but for others this could be a problem. I have a substantial investment in s35 glass, so this is something of concern to me.



Feli di Giorgio

VFX / Bay Area


_______________________________________________
Feli di Giorgio - feli2@... - www.felidigiorgio.com




On Feb 4, 2018, at 8:47 AM, Feli di Giorgio <feli2@...> wrote:

Just how useable is the s35 UHD window, if in most cases you lose all focal lengths below 35mm? Who’s going to shoot a show without wide angle lenses? And is UHD even enough for Netflix or are they insisting on 4k DCI @ 4096?


_._

Gavin Greenwalt
 

“Just how useable is the s35 UHD window”
Feli di Giorgio

 

Yeah it’s quite a bit larger than a true s35 sensor.  Arri’s UHD window is 31.7mm (vs s35’s 24.9mm) which is similar to the coverage when using a 'standard’ (6k Dragon is 30.7mm) RED chip. There are a lot of older s35mm lenses that don’t cover Dragon 6k.  

 

Alexa gets a big benefit from the large photo sites it has plus the Dual Gain Architecture, as it is averaging noise in the chip/A-Ds.  
- Jim Houston

 

Large photo sites aren’t that much of an advantage.   At an equal resolution yes big pixels would give you an advantage but usually smaller pixels means proportionally more pixels and more pixels means noise averaging from down sampling.  Signal theory says your down sampled Signal to Noise Ratio is n-samples * SnR of each sample.  So if you had an 8k sensor vs a 4k sensor you would have 4x as many samples and your SnR would be 4x higher by down sampling to 4k from 8k.   

I also suspect that by this point every modern sensor is using dual gain. 

Gavin Greenwalt / VFX
Seattle, WA



From: Feli di Giorgio
Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 8:47 AM
To: cml-general@...
Cc: Feli di Giorgio
Subject: Re: [general] Do we really want the ARRI LF ?

 

 

 



On Feb 4, 2018, at 4:33 AM, josephmastrangelo@... wrote:


But the main motivation for its existence would appear to be to get around current Netflix guidelines, and that's where it's not a complete success story, because a lot of Super 35mm glass won't cover the full frame format. I see that Arri are touting the UHD windowed mode that should work with lenses 35mm and up, but this is still restrictive, and my understanding is that not even UHD capture is high enough resolution for Netflix original content - it has to be 4096 pixels wide.

J Mastrangelo
Focus Puller
London, UK

 

 

If I am understanding this correctly, then this is quite worrying.

 

Just how useable is the s35 UHD window, if in most cases you lose all focal lengths below 35mm? Who’s going to shoot a show without wide angle lenses? And is UHD even enough for Netflix or are they insisting on 4k DCI @ 4096?

 

What about those who have invested in purchasing their own s35 glass and suddenly find themselves in a situation where they lose all focal lengths below 35mm, because they won’t properly cover the UHD s35 window mode? 

 

What if you want to shoot with vintage glass like a Cooke 18-100 or Zeiss Super Speeds mk3, Super Baltars, Cooke Speed Pancro etc?

I doubt that most of that glass will properly cover the UHD window, below 35 or 50mm. I know for certain that the Cooke 18-100 barely covers the current S35 Alexa. Is all of that glass suddenly rendered useless and the palette of lenses that we draw with  drastically reduced? 

 

 

Feli di Giorgio

 

VFX / Bay Area

 

 

_______________________________________________
Feli di Giorgio - feli2@... - www.felidigiorgio.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just how useable is the s35 UHD window, if in most cases you lose all focal lengths below 35mm? Who’s going to shoot a show without wide angle lenses? And is UHD even enough for Netflix or are they insisting on 4k DCI @ 4096?
 
What about those who have invested in purchasing their own s35 glass and suddenly find themselves in a situation where they lose all focal lengths below 35mm, because they won’t properly cover the UHD s35 window mode? 
 
What if you want to shoot with vintage glass like a Cooke 18-100 or Zeiss Super Speeds mk3, Super Baltars, Cooke Speed Pancro etc?
I doubt that most of that glass will properly cover the UHD window, below 35 or 50mm. I know for certain that the Cooke 18-100 barely covers the current S35 Alexa. Is all of that glass suddenly rendered useless and the palette of lenses that we draw with  drastically reduced? 
What I saw from the first videos posted by Arri it's that ultra DoF creaminess that remembers me DSRL world... I was convinced that in the new cameras would be incremented Dynamic Range, more ND filters built in, and for sure 4K for S35 lenses (with new pixel technology)... Nowadays you can use arri signature primes, Thaila or Cooke s7 with future modified mounts (LPL), no mini version because of the sensor/processor and larger mount... simple you can't be lightweight in FF.

____________________
 
Luigi Tadiotto
DP
Italy, Venice

fitzmaurice@...
 

I can't wait to test the LF against the Varicam, Large format is nice for a look but to Feli's point I really like having options about what glass to use. There is definitely going to be people that insist this new camera is the only way to shoot but this has been an issue since digital cameras over took film. Ford/Chevy thing. I really wish ARRI would have just made a new sensor that was 5.2k super 35 4:3 ARRIRAW at about half the size of this new camera. The way I shoot I like to use different glass for different moods, My last movie I used Cooke Pancros with Black Satin #2 filter and then the commercial after the movie I used Zeiss Ultra Primes. Lenses have so much character that it will be a bummer not to have options. Maybe TLS will start rehousing old Hasselblad lenses ;-)

Michael FitzMaurice
Cinematographer
Los Angeles, Ca

Nick Morrison
 

I understand the concern about viability of s35 lenses on LF sensors, but I do think we'll also see a growth in high end expanders that will help extend the life of these classic sets of glass.

I also think this move by Arri, Sony and RED into "large format" sensors makes sense - and follows historic trends.

Filmmaking embraced 1.33 for decades, but quickly evolved into widescreen formats when challenged by TV.

I think today's rapid growth in cellphone imaging is having a similar effect on high end cinema, and driving us towards larger formats. From "Tangerine" to RED's Hydrogen cellphone that will shoot raw video, the trends are clear. Powerful cinematic tools are being democratized, and the film industry is responding w/ larger, more dynamic sensors that are beyond the public's grasp.

These cameras are more expensive, their formats more unique, and their workflows less accessible. In an age where content is king, content creators are king-makers, and the tools clearly matter. Yes you can make a movie on your iphone, but no one will doubt it will look a 1000x better if you shoot it on an Alexa LF.

I personally welcome these developments: larger sensors open up new opportunities for filmmakers creatively and visually.

My only hope is Arri, Sony, and RED work hard to extend access to these elite imagers. One of the glories of the democritization of cinema has been the flurry of new voices and stories being told. It would be great to see this trend continue, even as top flight cameras get more rarified and elite. 

_____________
Nick Morrison
Founder, Director and Lead Creative
(646) 236-7884
smallgiant.tv

Feli di Giorgio
 



On Feb 4, 2018, at 9:51 AM, Michael Sanders <glowstars@...> wrote:

I suspect Arri will have taken this into consideration during product development :-)

Michael J Sanders
Director of Photography/Cinematographer  

Of course they did, but that doesn’t change the fact that apparently their UHD window won’t be covered by the image circle of most s35 lenses. If you’re fine with that then you’re covered (no pun intended), but for others this could be a problem. I have a substantial investment in s35 glass, so this is something of concern to me.



Feli di Giorgio

VFX / Bay Area


_______________________________________________
Feli di Giorgio - feli2@... - www.felidigiorgio.com




On Feb 4, 2018, at 8:47 AM, Feli di Giorgio <feli2@...> wrote:

Just how useable is the s35 UHD window, if in most cases you lose all focal lengths below 35mm? Who’s going to shoot a show without wide angle lenses? And is UHD even enough for Netflix or are they insisting on 4k DCI @ 4096?


_._

 

I suspect Arri will have taken this into consideration during product development :-)

Michael J Sanders
Director of Photography/Cinematographer  

reel & credits @ www.mjsanders.co.uk   

mobile:   07976 269818   
diary:      020 8426 2200


On Feb 4, 2018, at 8:47 AM, Feli di Giorgio <feli2@...> wrote:

Just how useable is the s35 UHD window, if in most cases you lose all focal lengths below 35mm? Who’s going to shoot a show without wide angle lenses? And is UHD even enough for Netflix or are they insisting on 4k DCI @ 4096?

JD Houston
 


On Feb 4, 2018, at 8:47 AM, Feli di Giorgio <feli2@...> wrote:



Just how useable is the s35 UHD window, if in most cases you lose all focal lengths below 35mm? Who’s going to shoot a show without wide angle lenses? And is UHD even enough for Netflix or are they insisting on 4k DCI @ 4096?


Requirements are for 4096 photo sites across the frame.  That is easy to do with Bayer pattern cameras.


Jim Houston
Pasadena, CA


Feli di Giorgio
 




On Feb 4, 2018, at 4:33 AM, josephmastrangelo@... wrote:

But the main motivation for its existence would appear to be to get around current Netflix guidelines, and that's where it's not a complete success story, because a lot of Super 35mm glass won't cover the full frame format. I see that Arri are touting the UHD windowed mode that should work with lenses 35mm and up, but this is still restrictive, and my understanding is that not even UHD capture is high enough resolution for Netflix original content - it has to be 4096 pixels wide.
J Mastrangelo
Focus Puller
London, UK


If I am understanding this correctly, then this is quite worrying.

Just how useable is the s35 UHD window, if in most cases you lose all focal lengths below 35mm? Who’s going to shoot a show without wide angle lenses? And is UHD even enough for Netflix or are they insisting on 4k DCI @ 4096?

What about those who have invested in purchasing their own s35 glass and suddenly find themselves in a situation where they lose all focal lengths below 35mm, because they won’t properly cover the UHD s35 window mode? 

What if you want to shoot with vintage glass like a Cooke 18-100 or Zeiss Super Speeds mk3, Super Baltars, Cooke Speed Pancro etc?
I doubt that most of that glass will properly cover the UHD window, below 35 or 50mm. I know for certain that the Cooke 18-100 barely covers the current S35 Alexa. Is all of that glass suddenly rendered useless and the palette of lenses that we draw with  drastically reduced? 


Feli di Giorgio

VFX / Bay Area


_______________________________________________
Feli di Giorgio - feli2@... - www.felidigiorgio.com





josephmastrangelo@...
 

I think this camera is going to be hugely popular. A full frame Alexa, say no more. It's a great creative option for us and I'm sure the results will be stunning.

But the main motivation for its existence would appear to be to get around current Netflix guidelines, and that's where it's not a complete success story, because a lot of Super 35mm glass won't cover the full frame format. I see that Arri are touting the UHD windowed mode that should work with lenses 35mm and up, but this is still restrictive, and my understanding is that not even UHD capture is high enough resolution for Netflix original content - it has to be 4096 pixels wide. Yes, there is full frame glass out there but I imagine it is in relatively short supply and a lot of people won't appreciate the narrowing of their know lens options.

It's fascinating to see how wedded to this sensor Arri are. In order to deliver true 4K, they have had to make the sensor bigger, forcing us into large format cinematography. It makes sense of course because even after 8 years its images are still industry leading. But surely at some point they are going to have to 'upgrade' to a newer sensor with a tighter pixel density like every other camera manufacturer has over the intervening years.

J Mastrangelo
Focus Puller
London, UK

Will Weprin
 

Well Congratulations to ARRI on their new camera, which is very impressive indeed. I am particularly pleased that they chose not to sacrifice photo site size and continue the excellent overall image quality with the best coloromitry in the business. 

However, I have to pause and ask; do we really want this large format game? Recently, I have watched a lot of “large format” shows both on the big screen and at home to wrap my head around it. Productions shot with the ALEXA 65, 65mm film and IMAX and I have to say this ultra shallow depth of field thing is really bothering me. I will say that the shots with deep focus in large format are absolutely stunning. There is a spacial quality and a sense of depth that is really amazing. 

These ultra shallow depth of field shots are driving me crazy though. Usually it is impossible to make out anything in the background, it is just a mush of color and it is very claustrophobic to watch. With Super 35, we have always been able to achieve pretty shallow depth of field with fast lenses, but you can still tell what is in the background and it can be beautiful. Anamorphic has also been a wonderful way to achieve a different, more impressionistic bokeh as well. Large format reminds me of 3D, where all you can look at is the actors nose because that’s the only thing in focus and the rest of the production value is lost. 

There is a heightened resolution to faces and a nice smoothness to them at the same time. I am not saying that is good or bad, but it is measurable. Again the deep focus shots are amazing, especially the wides, but shooting large format with deep focus requires a lot more light. It’s an expensive way to shoot with cameras, lenses and/or film being more expensive. Is it necessary? 

With film 65mm film, we got more resolution, and rich color not to mention those expansive wides. With digital though, we haven’t been lacking in resolution for years, 

Take a look at the new Netflix show Altered Carbon to see what I am on about. Shot on ALEXA 65. 

Am I the only one who feels this way? Maybe so.

Will Weprin
ICG LOCAL 600
Director of Photography
Color Grading

ARRI AMIRA PREMIUM CAMERA PACKAGE AVAILABLE!

(510)-685-7224
willweprin@...
www.weprinfilms.com

On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 12:21 AM, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:

I know that this will probably get me a load of grief but…

 

I was at the launch of the LF on Friday and it’s a lovely camera, as are all ARRI cameras with the exception of the 16BL!

However, I’m not sure that we need another non-standard image size. ARRI have been really good in the past in ensuring compatibility but now they launch a camera that, well, why launch it?

I realise that producers have learned to ask about numbers instead of pictures, thanks RED, but it’s really sad to see ARRI falling into this trap.

In the June camera tests the Alexa and the F65 stood out as the best images regardless of resolution.

So Sony have introduced a camera that gives is F65 images in a better format and 3 perf, 4 perf & FF image sizes where ARRI have brought out something a bit bigger than FF with a non-standard sized UHD facility.

 

I’m sorry ARRI, I think you’ve lost the plot. FF Is a pain for AC’s and really isn’t required for most work. What we needed from you was, well, a camera with the Alexa look and the Venice image sizes.

 

ARRI has had a huge lead in image quality for a long time, combine that with their complete system and they’re almost unbeatable, almost.

 

Unless they make a major mistake and in making that mistake hand the market to a competitor.

 

I think that they may have just made that mistake…

 

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle

Sysadmin

Argyris_Theos_cml
 

Reading on their site: “maintaining the ALEXA family’s optimal pixel size for highest overall image quality

This means they played safe: they added additional pixels to get their 4K resolution, without touching the pxel characteristics.

The image look will probably be unaffected.

Anyone who knows Alexa, will shoot LF without doubt.

In this context, they have a point.

Time will show

Best

 

Argyris Theos, gsc

DoP, Athens Greece

tel. +30 6944 725 315

skype: Argyris.Theos

www.vimeo.com/argyristheos

 

Jonathan Belinski
 




I think that they may have just made that mistake…

 

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle

Sysadmin

_._,_._,_

I dont know how big a "mistake" this was but as a CML member since near inception I look to this group for guidance. I agree with Geoff that at this price point the camera seems to be directly addressing Netflix and other 4k + delivery networks. I know nothing of the lenses but the tech specs on the camera are underwhelming at the price point. Not just talking my book but the Red 8k Helium/Monstro have demonstrable improvements in latitude, speed, resolution, color space. This feels like a stop gap measure. I dont believe in the space race for K's and severely miss shooting on 5245 stock for low grain (sorry I mean noise). I love Arri products  (particularly their lighting of late) and I buy into their philosophy of having a battle tested sensor that always delivers. However as an owner of several Red cameras (not by accident) I think they are pushing the technology further and faster. No knock on Arri. I think most people prefer the organic image and reliability of an Alexa but we have gotten to the point of splitting hairs. The Arri Sky Panel is probably the best single  product I have ever owned but I prefer to shoot with that light with a Red 8k sensor. Everyone has their preference and by no means am I trying to start a product battle. Exceptional work has been done by both cameras in the field. I'm just not sure what you are getting extra for the money in terms of impact. Honest question 

--
Jonathan Belinski
Director of Photography
Belinski Media LLC
phone: (917) 882-0126
email:  belinskimedia1@...

Geoff Boyle
 

I know that this will probably get me a load of grief but…

 

I was at the launch of the LF on Friday and it’s a lovely camera, as are all ARRI cameras with the exception of the 16BL!

However, I’m not sure that we need another non-standard image size. ARRI have been really good in the past in ensuring compatibility but now they launch a camera that, well, why launch it?

I realise that producers have learned to ask about numbers instead of pictures, thanks RED, but it’s really sad to see ARRI falling into this trap.

In the June camera tests the Alexa and the F65 stood out as the best images regardless of resolution.

So Sony have introduced a camera that gives is F65 images in a better format and 3 perf, 4 perf & FF image sizes where ARRI have brought out something a bit bigger than FF with a non-standard sized UHD facility.

 

I’m sorry ARRI, I think you’ve lost the plot. FF Is a pain for AC’s and really isn’t required for most work. What we needed from you was, well, a camera with the Alexa look and the Venice image sizes.

 

ARRI has had a huge lead in image quality for a long time, combine that with their complete system and they’re almost unbeatable, almost.

 

Unless they make a major mistake and in making that mistake hand the market to a competitor.

 

I think that they may have just made that mistake…

 

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle

Sysadmin

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