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Red being disruptive again

Tim Sassoon
 

https://www.eoshd.com/2018/02/foxconn-partners-red-build-affordable-consumer-cinema-cameras/

Tim Sassoon
SFD
Venice, CA




On Feb 11, 2018, at 3:17 PM, Con Filippidis <con@...> wrote:

Congratulations Geoff, well deserved and well overdue. All the best.

Thank you for all you do for the art and craft of cinematography. We all appreciate it I’m sure.

Con Filippidis
DoP/Cinematographer
Melbourne, Australia

Mark Warmington
 

"Compressed Raw" strikes me as something of an oxymoron.

-- 
Best,
Mark Warmington


e: mail@...
m: 07793942273


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:24 PM, Tim Sassoon via Cml.News <tsassoon=aol.com@...> wrote:
https://www.eoshd.com/2018/02/foxconn-partners-red-build-affordable-consumer-cinema-cameras/

Tim Sassoon
SFD
Venice, CA




On Feb 11, 2018, at 3:17 PM, Con Filippidis <con@...> wrote:

Congratulations Geoff, well deserved and well overdue. All the best.

Thank you for all you do for the art and craft of cinematography. We all appreciate it I’m sure.

Con Filippidis
DoP/Cinematographer
Melbourne, Australia

Justin Black
 

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 6:02 AM, Mark Warmington <mail@...> wrote:
"Compressed Raw" strikes me as something of an oxymoron.

As does "prosumer 8K"

Justin Black
DP
Toronto

Argyris_Theos_cml
 

It's the same thing again:
My mam bought me a Red, so now I am a DP
Not sure if this can work twice

Argyris Theos, gsc
DoP, Athens Greece,
theos@...
+306944725315
Skype Argyris.Theos
www.vimeo.com/argyristheos
via iPhone


Compressed Raw" strikes me as something of an oxymoron.

Art Adams
 

There's no such thing as uncompressed raw. Even log encoding makes raw files smaller, so it could be considered a dorm of compression (although it's the most benign).

--
Art Adams
DP
San Francisco Bay Area



On Feb 13, 2018 at 6:02 AM, <Mark Warmington> wrote:

"Compressed Raw" strikes me as something of an oxymoron.

-- 
Best,
Mark Warmington


e: mail@...
m: 07793942273


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:24 PM, Tim Sassoon via Cml.News <tsassoon=aol.com@...> wrote:
https://www.eoshd.com/2018/02/foxconn-partners-red-build-affordable-consumer-cinema-cameras/

Tim Sassoon
SFD
Venice, CA




On Feb 11, 2018, at 3:17 PM, Con Filippidis <con@...> wrote:

Congratulations Geoff, well deserved and well overdue. All the best.

Thank you for all you do for the art and craft of cinematography. We all appreciate it I’m sure.

Con Filippidis
DoP/Cinematographer
Melbourne, Australia






Art Adams
 

Now they can bypass mom and buy it themselves. 

--
Art Adams
DP
San Francisco Bay Area



On Feb 13, 2018 at 7:19 AM, <Argyris_Theos_Cml> wrote:

It's the same thing again:
My mam bought me a Red, so now I am a DP
Not sure if this can work twice

Argyris Theos, gsc
DoP, Athens Greece,
theos@...
+306944725315
Skype Argyris.Theos
www.vimeo.com/argyristheos
via iPhone


Compressed Raw" strikes me as something of an oxymoron.

Tim Sassoon
 

Compressed RAW is simply compression of the original un-de-mosaic’ed file. G half the sensor resolution, and B and R half of that. RED throws a wavelet at it. Prosumer 8K is no more or less likely than Prosumer 1K - nothing but pixel count.

Here’s the deal with this announcement: Foxconn would like to become more than a mere assembler of other make’s toys, for which their customers reap the profit, not them. They want to be a Canon, a Nikon, a Sony, a Panasonic. BUT - they have to tread carefully, lest their existing customers start worrying about where the IP for this new venture is coming from, Chinese firms being rightly suspected of trying to steal anything not nailed down. Tying up with RED makes enormous sense, because then the question is settled - it’s RED’s IP, so worry not. And of course, RED themselves would like to become the next Apple.

So will the combined effort be called RedFox?


Tim Sassoon
Venice, CA




On Feb 13, 2018, at 3:50 AM, Justin Black <contact@...> wrote:

"Compressed Raw" strikes me as something of an oxymoron.

As does "prosumer 8K"

Jeff Kreines
 

The lesson RedFox will learn is that the demand for an 8k consumer camera is pretty low. Most consumers will be happy with their 4k iPhones.

This lesson was learned painfully back in the day by Fisher-Price when sales of their My First Panaflex tanked. Cute color scheme, tho.

Jeff Kreines
Kinetta
jeff@...
kinetta.com

Sent from iPhone.

On Feb 13, 2018, at 4:30 PM, Tim Sassoon via Cml.News <tsassoon=aol.com@...> wrote:

So will the combined effort be called RedFox?

Tim Sassoon
 

I presume that by the time the RedFox or RedConn comes out, 8K 120fps will be a standard offering; no longer the bleeding edge. And they’ll be in the scrum with GoPro (if still in business) and everyone else. I hope that the bleeding edge is doing lightfields, UHDR and hyperspectral by then, not just piling up pixels.


Tim Sassoon
Venice, CA




On Feb 13, 2018, at 3:45 PM, Jeff Kreines <jeff@...> wrote:

The lesson RedFox will learn is that the demand for an 8k consumer camera is pretty low. Most consumers will be happy with their 4k iPhones.

This lesson was learned painfully back in the day by Fisher-Price when sales of their My First Panaflex tanked. Cute color scheme, tho.

brent finley
 

Was discussing this with a co-conspirator in skydiving… who sometimes jumps a Red.  A friend of ours recently jumped with an 8K Weapon at 60 FPS…   and said the footage looked like a really nice video camera…

Do we really need 8K TVs in our living rooms?  At some point, aren’t our eyeballs just not good enough to see the difference?  Just because TVs can get bigger doesn’t mean people can suddenly afford bigger houses and bigger home theater rooms so they can mount a 16 foot TV and sit 20 feet away from it.  Just go to the movies.

At some point the resolution numbers don’t matter any more to my eyes (that are not getting better with age)

My footage rep at Getty said they don’t foresee anything but 4K being handled there for the next few years…

Suddenly buying a 5K Red on eBay for $9,000 doesn’t seem like a bad idea to produce some nice slow motion 4K.  The 4K specs at 120 fps seem to be the same on the newer 6K and 8K models, so buy a cheaper model camera and go shoot some skateboarders…  or surfing with a 600mm lens.

Brent Finley
Chandler, AZ.
Photo-sonics rental.

On Feb 13, 2018, at 4:45 PM, Jeff Kreines <jeff@...> wrote:

The lesson RedFox will learn is that the demand for an 8k consumer camera is pretty low. Most consumers will be happy with their 4k iPhones.

This lesson was learned painfully back in the day by Fisher-Price when sales of their My First Panaflex tanked. Cute color scheme, tho.

Jeff Kreines
Kinetta
jeff@...
kinetta.com

Sent from iPhone.

On Feb 13, 2018, at 4:30 PM, Tim Sassoon via Cml.News <tsassoon=aol.com@...> wrote:

So will the combined effort be called RedFox?

Michael Brennan
 

The contents of this email are confidential

On 14 Feb 2018, at 10:45 am, Jeff Kreines <jeff@...> wrote:

Most consumers will be happy with their 4k iPhones.
Until the day they can zoom into the 8k image in replay mode. No doubt consumer apps will develop that crop enlarge and edit a movie from “content” within the wide frame:)


Mike Brennan
DP
Melbourne

Glenn Lee Dicus
 

It all comes down to marketing.

If they market 8k as the necessary ingredient for the Ken burns effect, people will buy it in droves. Not that is necessary.

Glenn Lee Dicus
“Data Monkey”
Los Angeles

Steven Bradford
 

On Feb 13, 2018, at 5:02 AM, Art Adams <art.cml.only@...> wrote:
Now they can bypass mom and buy it themselves.
At a third the cost of current 8k cameras??

"Foxconn chairman Terry Gou said of the venture: “We will make cameras that will shoot professional-quality films in 8K resolution but at only a third of current prices and a third of current camera sizes”.

That’s still pretty expensive. What’s the current cheapest professional 8k camera cost? One third doesn’t come close to being consumer pricing.

Also, did we lose the future cameras list for this post topic with the transition??

Steven Bradford
Cinematographer/Instructor
Seattle , USA

CineCAS (IMAP)
 

I agree.  Even though you can’t tell the difference between most 4K and HD TV’s from about 6 feet away, it didn’t stop the uninformed public from buying them.  As Redd Fox said, “Don’t be a big dummy”.  (Did I just date myself…)

On Feb 13, 2018, at 8:42 PM, Glenn Lee Dicus <glenndicus@...> wrote:

It all comes down to marketing.

Charles Schner + Cinematographer + Camera Operator
310-399-9246 + 310-994-5429 + www.cinecas.com
New York at the moment

sklba.art@...
 

Anyone else remember when RED promised a 3k camera for 3k? Yeah, about that...

John Sklba
Memphis, TN

Gavin Greenwalt
 

“The lesson RedFox will learn is that the demand for an 8k consumer camera is pretty low. Most consumers will be happy with their 4k iPhones.”

 

Lots of strong opinions on why this will inevitably fail but I had an 8k smartphone 3 years ago. The Lumia 1020 was amazing. I miss the 8k camera. I could do a 4:1 zoom and still have a 1080p video.

 

Gavin Greenwalt

VFX Supervisor

Seattle,Wa

Bob Kertesz
 

Even though you can’t tell the difference between most 4K and HD TV’s from about 6 feet away, it didn’t stop the uninformed public from buying them.

I'm one of those uninformed people who bought a 4K set. The transition point for seeing 4K vs. HD for my 65" set is actually more like 7.5 feet.

I sit 11 feet away, and while the added resolution of 4K is not readily apparent at that distance when the 1080 footage is well made, the other benefits of a modern set (expanded color space, DolbyVision, HDR10, HLG, really good 3D, not to mention real blacks on my OLED, none of which were available on any HD set available a year ago) were some of the deciding factors. The aesthetics of the set, which when seen working in a darkened room looks like a very thin piece of floating glass, were also a factor.

And I like to have the same display technology when watching at home as I use at work.

As for RED, I anxiously await (along with the rest of the entire universe) their foray into the cell phone arena with their $1,500 holographic phone. As Apple is beginning to realize the folly of releasing a thousand dollar phone as sales tank (and why Foxconn is looking for other ventures like an 8K prosumer camera), a $1,500 phone will certainly be a niche product. Entering the non-technical consumer market at the extreme high end of pricing by a company with no previous cell phone or consumer market experience or history is a bold move indeed. I can't wait to see how things unfold.

And circling back to the original topic, I currently don't give a shit about 8K anything. If you can't get it into my house on a regular basis, go away.

-Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California

DIT, Video Controller, and live compositor extraordinaire.

High quality images for more than four decades - whether you've wanted them or not.©

* * * * * * * * * *

Art Adams
 

I think the lesson we all need to learn is that those behind RED are exceptional at making people want the things that they make. Technical specs and practicalities don't come into it.

--
Art Adams
DP
San Francisco Bay Area



On Feb 14, 2018 at 9:58 AM, <Gavin Greenwalt> wrote:

“The lesson RedFox will learn is that the demand for an 8k consumer camera is pretty low. Most consumers will be happy with their 4k iPhones.”

 

Lots of strong opinions on why this will inevitably fail but I had an 8k smartphone 3 years ago. The Lumia 1020 was amazing. I miss the 8k camera. I could do a 4:1 zoom and still have a 1080p video.

 

Gavin Greenwalt

VFX Supervisor

Seattle,Wa

CineCAS (IMAP)
 

Now those are real reasons to upgrade your TV…(except for maybe the 3D but that’s my bias)

On Feb 14, 2018, at 1:41 PM, Bob Kertesz <bob@...> wrote:

(expanded color space, DolbyVision, HDR10, HLG, really good 3D, not to mention real blacks on my OLED, none of which were available on any HD set available a year ago)

Charles Schner + Cinematographer + Camera Operator
310-399-9246 + 310-994-5429 + www.cinecas.com
New York for the moment

JD Houston
 


On Feb 14, 2018, at 5:58 AM, CineCAS (IMAP) <charles@...> wrote:

Even though you can’t tell the difference between most 4K and HD TV’s from about 6 feet away, it didn’t stop the uninformed public from buying them.  

I understand that this is conventional wisdom that derives from the bromide that the eye can only distinguish an arc-minute of resolution.
Lots of press jumped on the bandwagon to repeat this but it is not on solid ground.

Tests don’t support this distinction when applied to TVs.   You can see differences in some shots at 20 feet away…. many shots are not designed
for 4K anyway, or have filters in place on the camera that soften the image, or wavelet compression without enough bits in the stream (which looks soft).

A set of pictures with 4K frequencies (as measured by an FFT) CAN show differences between 4K and UHD, and the UHD image is superior in fine details.
In much available content though, it is true that it can be hard to see any difference - Even in demo reels intended to show the best of UHD.

One example I remember at NAB was a set of scenes from 4K “Life of Pi”  where all the way from the other side of the booth, (and with side by side HD and UHD of the 
same video), I could easily tell that the 4K image looked better in some scenes.  Sparkes on water, a starry sky, drops of water falling off the whale,etc..

Supersampling rules (as the sound guys have known for years).

Higher brightness HDR sets also benefit from higher resolution as the brighter things are, the more you can separate details.

We are nowhere close to matching what you can see out your window.

So anyone with a 4K set should feel good that it is the right direction to go,  even if it is taking time for content to catch up.

Anyone notice now how hard it is to watch SD material from the 70’s.   Audience expectations change as time goes on and some notice 
some things and not others (my brother bragged about a new cable box that showed HD, but he didn’t realize that those were only the channels in the 500s.
So he had still been watching SD for a couple years.  A common mistake.  )

Jim Houston
Consultant
Starwatcher Digital
Pasadena, CA

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