Topics

Mid-level cine prime recommendations

Roy H. Wagner ASC
 

Although I love to learn as much as I can understand about the tools that I use I personally believe that EVERY tool we use is subject to our personal preference and interpretation. I’ve loved eery manufacturer’s product I’ve ever used and embraced the interpretation they’ve afforded me.
I’ve always believed that Cooke’s produce a “buttery” quality (my technical interpretation) although I’ve been able to do the same with Master Primes, Schneiders, Zeiss, Baltars. So much goes in to the final image - stop, backlight, front light, color temperature of light, filtration…..blah, blah, blah.
I admire anyone who ventures into the thankless arena of motion picture lens and camera development. You just cannot make enough money to make it worth while. Thus for all those attempting to help us find the “secret sauce” I thank you from the bottom of my heart.
There is no such thing as the perfect image, perfect glass….. Thank god there are enough of us who have personal signatures that, we think, are different enough to embrace all of the different technologies available to us.

Very Best Wishes to all Dreamers!
Roy H. Wagner ASC/hfRPS
Director of Photography
(310) 614-8362

Mark Sasahara
 

Obviously a catadioptric lens. Duh-uh.

-Mark Sasahara DP, NYC


Mark Sasahara
  marksasahara@...
   718-440-1013
    http://msasahara.com


On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 1:28 PM, Ed David <ed.david@...> wrote:
In the interest of lowering my therapy bill after viewing this thread, I would like to change the topic.

Can someone tell me what lens this cat is using in the photo?


I would also like to use this lens/system combo.


ed david | cinematographer

Ed David <ed.david@...>
 

In the interest of lowering my therapy bill after viewing this thread, I would like to change the topic.

Can someone tell me what lens this cat is using in the photo?


I would also like to use this lens/system combo.


ed david | cinematographer
WWW.EDDAVIDDP.COM   /   917.449.0739

Hanse Inno Tech
 

Hi John,

you are right, sorry about that, thanks for letting me know.

Best Regards,
Steven Kisilevich
Director of Research and Development
Hanse Inno Tech GmbH

Mark Kenfield
 


Every instance of this particular little online fracas I’ve stumbled across has been pretty unpleasant. And my interest in getting in any way involved is very low. But being a lens geek, I’ve followed its development (from afar) with interest. And for the sake of clarity in any further discussion, I’d like to bring others up to speed with the tidbits that I know.


I got to briefly meet Steven just shy of two years ago, when he took the Celere HS lenses on a bit of a world tour, which included a stop all the way down here at the end of the world (Melbourne, Australia). He was very pleasant and engaging, and we had a terrific chat about cinema optics and what Hanse Inno Tech were trying to bring to the table with their Celeres. 


Personally I think the lenses have some fantastic, forward-thinking features (front filter threads, rear net holders, and matched weights across the set for ease of lens changes on Steadicams/gimbals). And I think it’s very telling that we’ve seen some of these very same features appear on new lenses from other manufacturers recently. They’re excellent ideas.


There had at that point, been a suggestion online (on Reduser I believe), that the Celeres might be using repurposed glass or iris assemblies from existing lenses. I asked Steven about this, and he told me to my face that it wasn’t true, and that they designed their lenses in-house, and sourced their optical elements and coatings directly from wide range of suppliers. He wanted to address the rumours head on (which I admired) and told me that he had no reason to lie about it, and I saw no reason to doubt him.


There wasn’t much else to say about the matter until the excellent SALT VV Vistavision Lens Shootout was put together by Matt Duclos, Phil Holland, Evan Grant and Matt Hayslett (you can check that out at the following links if you haven’t already): 


http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?163197-SALT-VV-VistaVision-Lens-Shootout 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eRmqYzJVfU


As you can see from their notes (and as Matt stated earlier in this thread), their conclusion was that the 25mm, 36mm and 50mm Celeres are repurposed Rokinon glass, and the 18.5mm is a repurposed Sigma 20mm f/1.4


Now I only have the test footage itself to go off, so the only comment I can make is that I agree, they do look very similar. But I’ve attached some screengrabs to compare for yourself (personally, I’d recommend watching the test footage itself for a better assessment).


Personally, I have zero issues with rehoused glass. Some of the nicest lenses I’ve ever used have been rehousings, and some of the lenses I lust after most are also rehousings. And frankly, anything that makes good glass more accessible and usable for motion picture applications is a good thing as far as I’m concerned. But I think clarity is important with these things, it informs the decisions we make on set, and if there are potential issues like lenses in the same set that aren’t colour matched because the base optics or coatings are sourced from completely different places - well, that’s an issue for me. Certainly it’s an issue I can deal with, but only if I know what I’m getting into from the outset.



Cheers,

Mark Kenfield
Cinematographer
The Antipodes 

0400 044 500

John Duclos
 

Steven, in the unlikely event that this thread continues, could I ask you to refer to Ducloslenses specifically in future, rather than just Duclos, to avoid any chance of my getting caught up in the crossfire?

 

I thank you,

 

John Duclos
Technical R & D

Camera & Grip Division


ARRI Rental

3 Highbridge, Oxford Road,

Uxbridge, Middlesex UB8 1LX

Tel.: +44 (0) 1895 457100

 

 



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From: cml-glass@... [mailto:cml-glass@...] On Behalf Of Hanse Inno Tech
Sent: 18 March 2018 10:43
To: cml-glass@...
Subject: Re: [glass] Mid-level cine prime recommendations

 

Ladies and Gentlemen, this response is going to be a long one.  We asked Geoff to be allowed to come onto CML and make a formal response.  We will try not to make this a habit.

 

There is speculation here, which we will get to in a minute, Duclos doesn't know everything about our lenses or our glass and with which companies we have signed contracts to supply us with glass. Ultimately, I do not need Duclos to take apart my lenses to show people how we build them, that we can do ourselves.  We have said many times on and off-line that we have an open door policy, anyone is welcome to come and see for themselves.  Duclos has or maybe still has a good name in the industry, but through these tactics, I have to say you are not doing justice to your reputation, rather damaging it.  Maybe it’s time everyone goes about their own business in a friendly competitive way.

 

Some of the places we have had our glass made:

FineOptics in Wetzlar

DD Optics in Wetzlar, does a lot of optical work for the Summilux-C

After that we entered into talks with Befort Wetzlar

We went global sourcing glass manufacturers and currently will remain right where we are. We have been having glass manufactured based to our specifications for a number of years now and will continue to do so.  The exact glass, from which countries with which coatings will remain our business and we kindly ask that others like Duclos try to respect that and mind their own business.  Bottom line, what glass we use, how we assemble and where it comes from, is first and foremost only our business, just like every other company.  If other manufacturers are getting their glass made from similar sources.  I don't have to prove anything, only that Duclos is still fishing.  Partial truths packaged as the full truths can be disastrous and he knows it.  This is where the grounds of speculation are happening, i.e. this goes against CML's rules.

 

We know where many glass manufacturers are getting their glass, such as Leica, Carl Zeiss, etc, just like we know where Hasselblad glass is being made and where many other companies are sourcing glass.  We know of companies in Japan that have Chinese manufacturers make the glass, send it to Japan, there it is assembled and of course made in Japan.  It's a global market, what do people expect.  We were in China for two weeks in December and saw first hand glass manufacturers that got bought out by Japanese companies.  Again, Japanese owned, now being produced in China.  The quality is exceptional, Cinematographers around the world can and will be shooting with these lenses.  Do they care where the glass comes from, no.  Professional Cinematographers only care about the look and feel, is this the right tool for the job at hand, just like a master carpenter.  Sometimes Cinematographers can take the oldest and most difficult of tools and make stunning images come to life.  This is what Dick Pope BSC told me when we discussed his work on the movie "Turner".  He was testing the Celere HS lenses at the BSC Expo in London (we posted it on Facebook), and he was telling us that the Celere's would have been a wonderful lens had he known before shooting Turner.  Mr. Pope was working with a set of older Panchros, his DIT explained that they had Opto-Mechanical difficulties with that set, yet they still made amazing images!

This isn't just about Celere lenses, even though Duclos may be wording it so on social platforms, there is far more at stake here, this goes well beyond Celere lenses.  Duclos knows it, we know it, and the public needs to know it.  Ask yourselves, does Duclos sell lenses and do we sell lenses?  What about other products or products to soon come to market?  We have brought a lot of products lately to the market that might be in competition to Duclos (their visual collimators and our Autocollimators, etc) and more to come.  This should in no way be a reason to pursue these lines of behaviour.  This is unfortunate and as I have listed below, this behaviour needs to stop.  This is not the first time, this is about the fourth time this has happened from Duclos on Social Media.  It is very unbecoming and unprofessional, they are attacks against us and is unfound criticism.  Just because we manufacture and sell similar products as Duclos, this does not mean that the market is not large enough for two or more.  Competition in this regards is healthy and in our opinion needed.  We are trying to change the industry in a positive way.  All we ask, among peers and professionals is please allow us to continue without the unneeded biased opinions packaged as truth.

We have enclosed a scan (please see attachment) from a trade magazine that was distributed in Wetzlar, Germany, talking about Samyang visiting Wetzlar, specifically, Befort-Optic (one of the companies we signed NDA's with for glass), quote from the current CEO Henner Befort, "Samyang approached us and asked if we could make their glass, but at that price point it is just not realistic."  Samyang does not make their own glass either, they shop around just like the rest of us.  We should know, we had a sit down meeting with Fujinon last year at the IBC, with Senior Vice President Homare Kai and Product Manager Hideyuki Kasai as well as in Tokyo, Japan in November and in December Fujinon flew to Hamburg to come and visit us, the Sales & Marketing Manager as well as the Senior Expert for Optical devices.  We have 6 catalogues at our office and more are online, each hundreds of pages, listing 10000’s of glass elements for purchasing.  Yes, some lens elements for many companies, not just ours, are stock off the shelf order by catalogue.  These glass suppliers can mass produce in high volumes which in turn drives the price down.  Anyone who comes to our company, I can show you bills and offers of what individual lens elements cost to be manufactured in Germany and the same lens element out of the catalogue.  As a last note on this subject, requesting glass to be made by these companies also works well.  If you have lens elements you need and they do not offer it which is most of the time, then you can send in a request to have them make these lens elements for you and if they agree that it is in their business interests, they in turn will make and in some cases add it to their catalogue.

I was taught to always question peoples motives to find out what is their angle.  Duclos is strategically attacking and using every forum/platform to make his speculative remarks.  Our commitment and responsibility is first and foremost to protecting our employees jobs, second the company and it's reputation.  CML should not be used as a platform for Duclos selling a version of a story and packaging it as truth.  Truth would be what the Washington Post calls: show us the documents, the originals.  He does not have the paper contracts to our manufacturers, that, he can not show you.  He cannot show you the bills we pay for glass and to whom, etc.  Last but not least, even if, I repeat, if Duclos is up to 50% correct in his assumptions, he is still guessing and speculating about the other 50% or more, which still counts as speculating, i.e. it is not the whole truth as he worded it on CML.  Impossible for him to know the whole truth, therefor by common reasoning, there will always be speculation on his part.

 

We are still learning, especially when someone leaves an anonymous tip for U.S. customs that our lenses have Thorium 232 and that they are not manufactured in Germany.  We handed in all the required documents to the officials at U.S. customs, it only took 3 weeks of work to get the set of lenses to go through and yes, it costed us the NAB trade show last year.  We are learning fast.  I asked for help from the former Deputy Prime Minister of Canada to help us get to the root of the situation, lucky for us he still has connections in Washington otherwise our lenses could have taken months to get to the bottom of things.  Yes, there are elbows being used, but that is o.k. we take our knocks, we shake it off, we learn and continue.  We continue only because we know what we have in store and why we will be happy to share it on the open market all in due time.

 

Since Duclos has already mentioned in REDuser that we threatened him with a lawsuit, this is now open to the public discussion.  Matthew, please you can not be serious?  Playing the wounded or offended party does not become you.  You started this on Facebook by making a post and having us removed so that we could not make a response.  When we called you up on it in Social Media, you apologised publicly.  We left it at that, somehow you couldn’t.  Offline I have a recording from our Skype appointment from the 18th of February, 2017.  When dealing with people with a difficult nature we always take precautions.  Do you really want to go there?  I can post your conversation and your threats online for everyone to see and hear, let them be the judges with your own words.  Do you care to retract your statements, again?  Only after your threats, did we have to pursue lawyers.  You didn't leave us with much of a choice, nor would you leave us alone for some unexplained reason.  We will not sit idly and go down gentle into the night.  We were not the ones singling others out looking for a fight but we are willing to make sure we finish it.

 

We are fortunate that last year we invited a law firm to become share holders of our company and they have a partner firm in Manhattan from which we were told a court summons could be served to appear before a hearing.  We have handed in design protections in the EU.  The internet knows no boundaries, and anyone exposed to the content infringing upon our Intellectual Property would be grounds enough for pursuing a legal avenue and can be subpoena'd to testify.  Worst case for us is that we may not win after two to three years of legal disputes in a German court, but we can sure try!  Our lawyers are partners and as shareholders, they are literally working in their own interest.  Even though I am a spokes person for the company, only because as a Canadian I speak fluent English, yet I am only a minor share holder in the company.

 

If no professional Cinematographer cares where the glass is coming from, then ask yourselves, why has Duclos tried this for the fourth time in Social Media, we are not the ones seeking trouble, nor did we ask for this.  Obviously there is something bothering them.  The only reason we are posting here and everywhere Duclos tries to pop up, we need to set the record straight.  Duclos may have some of the facts, but not all the facts, that is impossible for him to know!  No one outside our company is privy to that information.  Therefore, there will always be speculation with half truths, but never the whole story.  To do that online would be to hand over trade secrets that made us popular to begin with.  No company in the world does this, nor is it asked of them, not from Cooke, not from Leica, etc, then why should we have to.  Judge us not by heresay, biased opinions and slander, rather on the merits of our workmanship, passion, commitment to our customers and our ability to bring new and innovative products to the market.  To put the nail in the coffin, has anyone here on CML ever seen a 135mm lens in T1.5 that covers up to a Monstro sensor, anywhere in the world?  We have attached a few photos to prove we are still making lenses that will keep people guessing and speculating for years to come.  Simple, we built 3 prototypes!  We are no longer in the business of only making lenses but now we are into the manufacturing of precision optical devices to help us and other companies build and service lenses.

 

Thank you for your time, sorry to CML for us having to come in just to clear our good name, thank you for the opportunity!

 

Best Regards,

Steven Kisilevich

Director of Research and Development

 

Hanse Inno Tech GmbH

Hanse Inno Tech
 

Ladies and Gentlemen, this response is going to be a long one.  We asked Geoff to be allowed to come onto CML and make a formal response.  We will try not to make this a habit.

 

There is speculation here, which we will get to in a minute, Duclos doesn't know everything about our lenses or our glass and with which companies we have signed contracts to supply us with glass. Ultimately, I do not need Duclos to take apart my lenses to show people how we build them, that we can do ourselves.  We have said many times on and off-line that we have an open door policy, anyone is welcome to come and see for themselves.  Duclos has or maybe still has a good name in the industry, but through these tactics, I have to say you are not doing justice to your reputation, rather damaging it.  Maybe it’s time everyone goes about their own business in a friendly competitive way.

 

Some of the places we have had our glass made:

FineOptics in Wetzlar

DD Optics in Wetzlar, does a lot of optical work for the Summilux-C

After that we entered into talks with Befort Wetzlar

We went global sourcing glass manufacturers and currently will remain right where we are. We have been having glass manufactured based to our specifications for a number of years now and will continue to do so.  The exact glass, from which countries with which coatings will remain our business and we kindly ask that others like Duclos try to respect that and mind their own business.  Bottom line, what glass we use, how we assemble and where it comes from, is first and foremost only our business, just like every other company.  If other manufacturers are getting their glass made from similar sources.  I don't have to prove anything, only that Duclos is still fishing.  Partial truths packaged as the full truths can be disastrous and he knows it.  This is where the grounds of speculation are happening, i.e. this goes against CML's rules.

 

We know where many glass manufacturers are getting their glass, such as Leica, Carl Zeiss, etc, just like we know where Hasselblad glass is being made and where many other companies are sourcing glass.  We know of companies in Japan that have Chinese manufacturers make the glass, send it to Japan, there it is assembled and of course made in Japan.  It's a global market, what do people expect.  We were in China for two weeks in December and saw first hand glass manufacturers that got bought out by Japanese companies.  Again, Japanese owned, now being produced in China.  The quality is exceptional, Cinematographers around the world can and will be shooting with these lenses.  Do they care where the glass comes from, no.  Professional Cinematographers only care about the look and feel, is this the right tool for the job at hand, just like a master carpenter.  Sometimes Cinematographers can take the oldest and most difficult of tools and make stunning images come to life.  This is what Dick Pope BSC told me when we discussed his work on the movie "Turner".  He was testing the Celere HS lenses at the BSC Expo in London (we posted it on Facebook), and he was telling us that the Celere's would have been a wonderful lens had he known before shooting Turner.  Mr. Pope was working with a set of older Panchros, his DIT explained that they had Opto-Mechanical difficulties with that set, yet they still made amazing images!

This isn't just about Celere lenses, even though Duclos may be wording it so on social platforms, there is far more at stake here, this goes well beyond Celere lenses.  Duclos knows it, we know it, and the public needs to know it.  Ask yourselves, does Duclos sell lenses and do we sell lenses?  What about other products or products to soon come to market?  We have brought a lot of products lately to the market that might be in competition to Duclos (their visual collimators and our Autocollimators, etc) and more to come.  This should in no way be a reason to pursue these lines of behaviour.  This is unfortunate and as I have listed below, this behaviour needs to stop.  This is not the first time, this is about the fourth time this has happened from Duclos on Social Media.  It is very unbecoming and unprofessional, they are attacks against us and is unfound criticism.  Just because we manufacture and sell similar products as Duclos, this does not mean that the market is not large enough for two or more.  Competition in this regards is healthy and in our opinion needed.  We are trying to change the industry in a positive way.  All we ask, among peers and professionals is please allow us to continue without the unneeded biased opinions packaged as truth.

We have enclosed a scan (please see attachment) from a trade magazine that was distributed in Wetzlar, Germany, talking about Samyang visiting Wetzlar, specifically, Befort-Optic (one of the companies we signed NDA's with for glass), quote from the current CEO Henner Befort, "Samyang approached us and asked if we could make their glass, but at that price point it is just not realistic."  Samyang does not make their own glass either, they shop around just like the rest of us.  We should know, we had a sit down meeting with Fujinon last year at the IBC, with Senior Vice President Homare Kai and Product Manager Hideyuki Kasai as well as in Tokyo, Japan in November and in December Fujinon flew to Hamburg to come and visit us, the Sales & Marketing Manager as well as the Senior Expert for Optical devices.  We have 6 catalogues at our office and more are online, each hundreds of pages, listing 10000’s of glass elements for purchasing.  Yes, some lens elements for many companies, not just ours, are stock off the shelf order by catalogue.  These glass suppliers can mass produce in high volumes which in turn drives the price down.  Anyone who comes to our company, I can show you bills and offers of what individual lens elements cost to be manufactured in Germany and the same lens element out of the catalogue.  As a last note on this subject, requesting glass to be made by these companies also works well.  If you have lens elements you need and they do not offer it which is most of the time, then you can send in a request to have them make these lens elements for you and if they agree that it is in their business interests, they in turn will make and in some cases add it to their catalogue.

I was taught to always question peoples motives to find out what is their angle.  Duclos is strategically attacking and using every forum/platform to make his speculative remarks.  Our commitment and responsibility is first and foremost to protecting our employees jobs, second the company and it's reputation.  CML should not be used as a platform for Duclos selling a version of a story and packaging it as truth.  Truth would be what the Washington Post calls: show us the documents, the originals.  He does not have the paper contracts to our manufacturers, that, he can not show you.  He cannot show you the bills we pay for glass and to whom, etc.  Last but not least, even if, I repeat, if Duclos is up to 50% correct in his assumptions, he is still guessing and speculating about the other 50% or more, which still counts as speculating, i.e. it is not the whole truth as he worded it on CML.  Impossible for him to know the whole truth, therefor by common reasoning, there will always be speculation on his part.

 

We are still learning, especially when someone leaves an anonymous tip for U.S. customs that our lenses have Thorium 232 and that they are not manufactured in Germany.  We handed in all the required documents to the officials at U.S. customs, it only took 3 weeks of work to get the set of lenses to go through and yes, it costed us the NAB trade show last year.  We are learning fast.  I asked for help from the former Deputy Prime Minister of Canada to help us get to the root of the situation, lucky for us he still has connections in Washington otherwise our lenses could have taken months to get to the bottom of things.  Yes, there are elbows being used, but that is o.k. we take our knocks, we shake it off, we learn and continue.  We continue only because we know what we have in store and why we will be happy to share it on the open market all in due time.

 

Since Duclos has already mentioned in REDuser that we threatened him with a lawsuit, this is now open to the public discussion.  Matthew, please you can not be serious?  Playing the wounded or offended party does not become you.  You started this on Facebook by making a post and having us removed so that we could not make a response.  When we called you up on it in Social Media, you apologised publicly.  We left it at that, somehow you couldn’t.  Offline I have a recording from our Skype appointment from the 18th of February, 2017.  When dealing with people with a difficult nature we always take precautions.  Do you really want to go there?  I can post your conversation and your threats online for everyone to see and hear, let them be the judges with your own words.  Do you care to retract your statements, again?  Only after your threats, did we have to pursue lawyers.  You didn't leave us with much of a choice, nor would you leave us alone for some unexplained reason.  We will not sit idly and go down gentle into the night.  We were not the ones singling others out looking for a fight but we are willing to make sure we finish it.

 

We are fortunate that last year we invited a law firm to become share holders of our company and they have a partner firm in Manhattan from which we were told a court summons could be served to appear before a hearing.  We have handed in design protections in the EU.  The internet knows no boundaries, and anyone exposed to the content infringing upon our Intellectual Property would be grounds enough for pursuing a legal avenue and can be subpoena'd to testify.  Worst case for us is that we may not win after two to three years of legal disputes in a German court, but we can sure try!  Our lawyers are partners and as shareholders, they are literally working in their own interest.  Even though I am a spokes person for the company, only because as a Canadian I speak fluent English, yet I am only a minor share holder in the company.

 

If no professional Cinematographer cares where the glass is coming from, then ask yourselves, why has Duclos tried this for the fourth time in Social Media, we are not the ones seeking trouble, nor did we ask for this.  Obviously there is something bothering them.  The only reason we are posting here and everywhere Duclos tries to pop up, we need to set the record straight.  Duclos may have some of the facts, but not all the facts, that is impossible for him to know!  No one outside our company is privy to that information.  Therefore, there will always be speculation with half truths, but never the whole story.  To do that online would be to hand over trade secrets that made us popular to begin with.  No company in the world does this, nor is it asked of them, not from Cooke, not from Leica, etc, then why should we have to.  Judge us not by heresay, biased opinions and slander, rather on the merits of our workmanship, passion, commitment to our customers and our ability to bring new and innovative products to the market.  To put the nail in the coffin, has anyone here on CML ever seen a 135mm lens in T1.5 that covers up to a Monstro sensor, anywhere in the world?  We have attached a few photos to prove we are still making lenses that will keep people guessing and speculating for years to come.  Simple, we built 3 prototypes!  We are no longer in the business of only making lenses but now we are into the manufacturing of precision optical devices to help us and other companies build and service lenses.

 

Thank you for your time, sorry to CML for us having to come in just to clear our good name, thank you for the opportunity!

 

Best Regards,

Steven Kisilevich

Director of Research and Development

 

Hanse Inno Tech GmbH

Philip Holland
 

Hello all,

Seems like the questions here are for mostly FF35 or VV coverage glass.  I've been shooting RED VV for around 2 years now and have lots of thoughts and experience.  I own and use a fair amount of the mid-level glass ($,$$$ price point per lens) that's out there and the very good news is many of them punch well above their weight just on a purely optical level.  Matthew posted are somewhat recent Salt VV lens test and it was lit to be a moderate stress test to "reveal some of the gremlins".

Before I spew out some thoughts, just some notes on format size and coverage.  RED VV is the largest image circle out of the recent crop of larger format digital cinema cameras.  If it covers RED VV it will cover the Sony Venice and Arri Alexa LF.

That said, quick thoughts on some decent investments.

 - Tokina Cinema Vista: Actually designed for the RED VV image circle (46.31) and cover generously beyond that if you're super curious.  T1.5, nearly zero breathing during the pull.  Larger than many others, but also designed for a larger format.  Very nice performance wide open and have some nice character to them.  These are a newly designed lenses for motion picture use.  

- Sigma Cine: Smaller than Tokinas and more compact on the body, designed for FF35 (43.27mm-ish) and cover RED's VV format size.  Also T1.5 and a bit more of a compact focus pull with a couple T2s in there.  Their look is modern and clean.  Breathing a bit more than Tokinas as a set, individual lengths are nice in there however.  These are based on their still lens counterparts, the Art series.

- Zeiss CP.3: Mostly T2.1 with T2.9s in there.  Many of the optical benefits of newer lens designs and coatings from the CP.2s in a smaller housing with more consistent character.  They are the lightest weight option here, so if you're working gimbal or handheld they are pretty ideal.  Nice focus pull actually on these.  Also have XD for lens metadata, which is useful for VFX and other work.  Also designed for FF35, but cover RED 8K VV.  In many ways these are Milvus primes taken up just a notch with some added seasoning.

 - Schneider Xenon-FF Primes: T2.1 and one of the earliest in the game on this front.  Also designed for FF35 (RED VV wasn't around yet).  Most cover VV cleanly.  I think the 25mm was the one that has smidge of vignette occlusion at full 8K FF on VV, HD or WS are clear.  I famously have stated these are sort of a sudo modern and classic design.  If you are looking for a modern take on Standard Speeds for a larger format, nice there.  Minimal breathing, nice housing, also designed for motion picture use.  

 - Canon CN-E:  Stock they are EF, Duclos can surgically attach a PL mount and make life easier.  Familiar Canon look from some of their popular still lenses translated into motion picture lenses.  I'm fond of the faster primes overall and that sneaky 135mm.

 - Xeens: Lightweight, but for me there's much better glass out there for a smidge more cash.  I would say these are pretty entry level, but that's just me.  Similarly to Canon, their 135mm is pretty nice.  These are based on the Rokinon Cine DS line, which are commonly used as crash cam lenses due to their rather aggressively affordable price.

I'll clamp things off there for motion picture glass.  All of the above are widely serviceable lenses, meaning lenses you can actually send in and get repaired or serviced all over.  Which to me means they are good investments.  There's a couple other sets out there that are mostly a rehousing effort and even two sets that never came to market, one of which I really wanted.


Honorable and notable mentions as I do use them on the VV.  EF mount isn't exactly the most ideal for motion picture use, but I've gone through great lengths to modify some lenses for a variety of reasons.  

Zeiss Otus Primes: All f/1.4, 3 exist today with more on the way. 28, 55, 85mm equals a nice wide, medium, and tele working set for VV.  Clean modern look and decent focus pull on the 55 and 85.  The 28mm is a shorter throw.  Duclos modified my set with metal gears and 114mm fronts so I can toss them into the helicopter/Shotover F1 setups.  Some of my favorite night work to date has been done with these wide open in the air.  Most land in the T1.5-T1.7 range when actually measured.

Zeiss Milvus: Similar to the CP.3s these can be very, very lightweight.  If that's your goal for your rig, certainly worth exploring.

Some nice vintage still stuff that works well like the Leica-R, Canon-FD, and Olympus-OM.  All are flawed to some extent for motion picture work, but each have their own general aesthetic and the lenses are generally compact.

Side note, I also own the Schneider Cine-Xenar III primes for S35 and those are honestly some of my favorite glass for the S35 format.  To me they are one of the most underrated prime sets out there.  I purchased them over a few usual suspects and have shot some lovely images with them over the years.

Hope that helps,

Phil


-----------------
Phil Holland - Cinematographer
http://www.phfx.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0390802/
818 470 0623


From: cml-glass@... <cml-glass@...> on behalf of Cloudchaser <david@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2018 2:25:00 PM
To: cml-glass@...
Subject: Re: [glass] Mid-level cine prime recommendations
 
I’m wondering why the Cooke miniS4i lenses aren’t in this discussion. I shoot with them a lot and while the 2.8 speed isn’t ideal, the Cooke look is.

-—-—-—-—-
David Mallin, Cinematographer & Educator
(415) 378-7573
On Mar 8, 2018, at 20:25, Leonard Levy <nsll@...> wrote:

Would love to see comparative tests of those or any lenses that do and dont exhibit “character” .
I have been convinced by Cooke’s if I could afford them though .

Mitch Gross
 

Illya is a reseller of lenses, among other things. He can’t go shooting himself in the foot.

Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager
Panasonic Media Entertainment Company
New York

On Mar 9, 2018, at 3:33 AM, Roy H. Wagner ASC <rhwasc@...> wrote:

I would love to hear your thoughts Ilya. I’ve been called the queen of cinematography. Surely the lens manufacturers can listen to opinion.

Thiele, Piet
 

Matthew J.

Yes, Maybe.
It depends what most of the users wants.
Full Frame lenses or Super35?
Please feel free to tell me your wishes.

Piet



Best regards

Piet Thiele
Product Manager Cine

E-mail: thielep@...<mailto:thielep@...>




________________________________

Von: "Matthew Clark" <str8films1@...<mailto:str8films1@...>>
Datum: Mittwoch, 7. März 2018 um 06:07:14
An: "cml-glass@..." <cml-glass@...<mailto:cml-glass@...>>
Betreff: Re: [glass] Mid-level cine prime recommendations

Piet-

Thanks for the definitive information on the Xenon’s and the Xenar III lenses. Much appreciated. Are there any plans on expanding the Xenar III lens line?

Matthew J. Clark
Director/DP
Seattle, WA
www.StraightEIGHTFilms.com<http://www.StraightEIGHTFilms.com>

Matthew Duclos
 

As per the rules of the forum, posting facts, not speculation here: Celere are simply re-barreled Rokinon primes (with the exception of the Celere "18.5mm" which is actually a Sigma 20mm f/1.4). Anyone that wants to argue that can come visit my bench anytime for a quick lesson. That said, there's a right tool for every job.

I did a rather thorough test along with some fellow lens geeks that stacked most of the FF/VV primes that fall into the "mid-level" category a few months back. The results live on another forum that I would encourage giving a quick read. The video is rather long since we rolled the same scene about 250 times over 40 something lenses at different T-stops throughout the test. Enjoy! http://duclos.tv/saltvv

-- Matthew Duclos
Lens Tech/Geek
Los Angeles, CA

Cloudchaser
 

I’m wondering why the Cooke miniS4i lenses aren’t in this discussion. I shoot with them a lot and while the 2.8 speed isn’t ideal, the Cooke look is.

-—-—-—-—-
David Mallin, Cinematographer & Educator
(415) 378-7573

On Mar 8, 2018, at 20:25, Leonard Levy <nsll@...> wrote:

Would love to see comparative tests of those or any lenses that do and dont exhibit “character” .
I have been convinced by Cooke’s if I could afford them though .

Rodrigo Lizana Lamarca
 


On Mar 6, 2018, at 4:19 AM, Matthew Clark <str8films1@...> wrote:

The surprise lenses were the Cine-Xenar III.  They were really great looking lenses, sharp, interesting renderings, great color matching, great close focus, optically sound (they projected really flat with little distortion in the wider lenses) and very little if any breathing.  They were really pretty.  I’m not sure about their coverage for FF.  

Wondering what this lenses look like ?.   More towards the Cookes with a warm soft feel or like the Zeiss ?.   What about the build quality ?.   Mechanics ?.

Regards

Rodrigo Lizana L.
Pixine Ltda.
Santiago
Chile

Roy H. Wagner ASC
 

I would love to hear your thoughts Ilya. I’ve been called the queen of cinematography. Surely the lens manufacturers can listen to opinion. 
Roy

Roy H. Wagner ASC
Director of Photography
Honorary Fellow Royal Photographic Society
AMPAS, SMPTE
(310) 614-8362

Geoff Boyle
 

Publish and be damned!

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Zoetermeer

www.gboyle.co.uk

+31 (0) 637 155 076

 

From: cml-glass@... <cml-glass@...> On Behalf Of circle_of_confusion via Cml.News
Sent: 07 March 2018 10:17
To: cml-glass@...
Subject: Re: [glass] Mid-level cine prime recommendations

 

Hi Cameron,

I have 1st hand experience with all of the lenses mentioned in this thread and could write a brief dissertation on the relative differences.  Although to do that would require more time than I have and at least 1 manufacturer would really not like what I have to say.  You are welcome to contact me directly and we can have a phone conversation if you'd like to get deep into them all.

Kind regards,

I.


Illya Friedman
President
Hot Rod Cameras
Burbank, CA
www.hotrodcameras.com

Mark H. Weingartner
 

I want to ask a question in the middle of all of this:

To what degree are your lens choices affected by the color of specular flares?  I was speaking with a DP who had very strong feelings about this… potentially a deal-breaker for some jobs, and I suspect others don't even think about that particular issue so much.




Mark Weingartner, ASC
DP, VFX Supervisor, and Stereographer
Los Angeles based 





Leonard Levy
 

I don’t have nearly the experience most of you do with cine primes , but I do often need a 50mm prime wide open for interviews in small rooms where client wants low DOF . I ended up with a Milvus prime because it was one of the few that still held sharpness wide open at that f stop.  I have compared it to the classic Zeiss line as well as the Rokinon and a Sigma 50mm cine prime f1.5 and none of those held up . I was actually surprised at the Sigma . Milvus also doesn’t bloom much and CA is minimal even wide open . 
I was intrigued by the reports of people liking the Rokinons for their “character “. 
Would love to see comparative tests of those or any lenses that do and dont exhibit “character” . 
I have been convinced by Cooke’s if I could afford them though . Any experience with the Otus line of DSLR primes that are supposed to be spectacular ? 
This has been a very informative thread btw and my thanks for all the valuable info. 

Leonard Levy , DP
San Rafael, CA 

On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, George Hupka <georgehupka@...> wrote:

I'm very interested in the Tokina Vistas, I've held one in my hands but haven't been able to test personally.  Impressed with the lack of breathing on the test footage I've seen.

Haven't used Xeens but I ended up working on a spot last summer that used the Rokinons wide open at 1.5 - which I wouldn't do based on my tests, as they seem to bloom a fair bit wide open... but for that particular spot darned if that look didn't work. 

--
----------
George Hupka
Director/DP
Saskatoon, Canada
Listmum, Cinematography Mailing List

George Hupka
 

I'm very interested in the Tokina Vistas, I've held one in my hands but haven't been able to test personally.  Impressed with the lack of breathing on the test footage I've seen.

Haven't used Xeens but I ended up working on a spot last summer that used the Rokinons wide open at 1.5 - which I wouldn't do based on my tests, as they seem to bloom a fair bit wide open... but for that particular spot darned if that look didn't work. 

--
----------
George Hupka
Director/DP
Saskatoon, Canada
Listmum, Cinematography Mailing List

George Hupka
 

Regarding the Schneiders,

I have used the Xenons and they do have noticeably more chromatic aberration than the Cine-Xenars (at least the ones I have used)... but they are compact, lightweight, and cover full frame.  I prefer the look of the bigger, heavier Cine-Xenars.

--
----------
George Hupka
Director/DP
Saskatoon, Canada
Listmum, Cinematography Mailing List

Jose del C Martinez
 

Hi

  Thanks for all your inputs which is the reason this is one of the most resourceful site for us who work on this wonderful world of visual art.

Jose del C. Martinez, SOC
Cinematographer/Gaffer 
Vaisty films Corp.
646 600 2021
NYC

On Mar 2, 2018 10:31 PM, "Cameron Zohoori" <cameron@...> wrote:
Hello all,

My company (a small creative agency/production house focusing on doc-style commercial and original productions) is looking to upgrade from our assortment of mostly still lenses (Canon EF primes/zooms, Sigma Art lenses, etc.) to a set of matched, mid-priced cine primes. We need FF coverage as we often shoot Sony A7SII as B-cam to an FS7 A-cam.

We're currently looking at Zeiss CP2, Schneider Xenon, Sigma FF, Canon CN-E, and maybe the Xeens. Online comparisons and reviews are all over the board in their quality/consistency of testing. We've tested a couple but would very much like to hear thoughts from other filmmakers with real world experience with these lenses. They all seem like good options; does anyone have thoughts on practical differences between these or similar choices, red flags in terms of optics/usability, or which you would trust as workhorse lenses for a range of doc projects? Happy to hear subjective opinions...

Thank you
-- 

Cameron Zohoori
Senior Producer
Vignette Creative
storyiseverything.com
Seattle, WA 
USA 

circle_of_confusion@...
 

Hi Cameron,

I have 1st hand experience with all of the lenses mentioned in this thread and could write a brief dissertation on the relative differences.  Although to do that would require more time than I have and at least 1 manufacturer would really not like what I have to say.  You are welcome to contact me directly and we can have a phone conversation if you'd like to get deep into them all.

Kind regards,

I.


Illya Friedman
President
Hot Rod Cameras
Burbank, CA
www.hotrodcameras.com

George Feucht
 

Thanks Piet!

I used the Zenons, only once, and they were spectacular. I've always had them in the running if I were to finally purchase a cinema prime set.

George Feucht
Director of Photography
(323) 864-7167

Matthew Clark
 

Piet-

Thanks for the definitive information on the Xenon’s and the Xenar III lenses.  Much appreciated.  Are there any plans on expanding the Xenar III lens line?

Matthew J. Clark
Director/DP 
Seattle, WA
www.StraightEIGHTFilms.com

Thiele, Piet
 

George,

 

since IBC 2017 the 18mm of the Xenon FF Line is delivered.

Piet

 

Mit freundlichen Grüßen/

Best regards

 

Piet Thiele

Product Manager CINE at Schneider-Kreuznach

 

E-mail: thielep@...

 

 

Von: cml-glass@... [mailto:cml-glass@...] Im Auftrag von George Feucht
Gesendet: Dienstag, 6. März 2018 16:35
An: cml-glass@...
Betreff: Re: [glass] Mid-level cine prime recommendations

 

Roy - Do you mean the Xenar III, or the Xenon lenses?  The Xenar III have an 18mm but the cheaper Xenon FF lenses only have 25mm at the widest.


--

George Feucht
Director of Photography
(323) 864-7167

Jay Holben
 

The Cine-Xenar's are designed for a 31.5mm image circle (S35). You may get lucky with the longer focal lengths covering FF, but you're out of luck on the wides. The wide two (18, 25) are T2.2, the 35 is T2.1 and the standard/longer three (55, 75, 95) are T2. There is a planned 14mm T2.2 but, thus far, that has not come to fruition.

Schneider does have the Xenon Full Frame lenses - all of which cover 43.3mm image circle. They're actually cheaper than the Xenar III's.


All the best,

Jay Holben
Director/Producer
Co-chair ASC Motion Imaging Technology Council Lens Committee
Los Angeles, CA
www.jayholben.com

Sent from my Atari 2600. Don't judge.

On Mar 5, 2018, at 11:19 PM, Matthew Clark <str8films1@...> wrote:

The surprise lenses were the Cine-Xenar III.

I’m not sure about their coverage for FF.

George Feucht
 

Roy - Do you mean the Xenar III, or the Xenon lenses?  The Xenar III have an 18mm but the cheaper Xenon FF lenses only have 25mm at the widest.

--
George Feucht
Director of Photography
(323) 864-7167

gleurquin@...
 

Dears, 

has someone personal experience with the G35 FF lenses (Gecko-Cam) ?
€5,900/lens, 8 lenses

Thank you,
have a nice day,

Georges Leurquin
Brussels
Belgium 


Thiele, Piet
 

Hi Matthew,

 

The Cine-Xenar III line is designed for Super 35 and does not cover Full Frame sensors.

Piet

 

Mit freundlichen Grüßen/

Best regards

 

Piet Thiele

Product Manager CINE (Schneider-Kreuznach)

 

E-mail: thielep@...

 

Roy H. Wagner ASC
 

I love the Schneider Cine-Xena lenses. They are beautifully built and produce a perfect circle boquet. I’ve used them on three projects and intend to use them quite a bit more. I hope they build some wider lenses.
Roy

Roy H. Wagner ASC/hfRPS
Director of Photography

Matthew Clark
 

I’ve shot with the Xeen primes, Rokinon Cine primes, Canon CNE primes, Zeiss CP2s, Schneider Cine-Xena IIIs and the Sigma primes.  To me, the Xeen and Rokinons (I know, similar glass, obviously different housing) had the most character and most "interesting" look.  Build quality on the Xeens is good, solid. The Rokinons feel like plastic toys…maybe that’s why I was kind of fond of them…funky little buggers.  The Sigmas are sharp and really hold off flaring but felt clinical.  Color matching felt off a bit between lenses.  Build quality is nice.  The CNEs also resist flaring a ton and hold their color between the lenses in the set.  For me, they didn’t assert a flavor or personality.  Build on the Canon is really good.  The Zeiss CP2s are solid, work horses that do what you expect from Zeiss lenses.  The surprise lenses were the Cine-Xenar III.  They were really great looking lenses, sharp, interesting renderings, great color matching, great close focus, optically sound (they projected really flat with little distortion in the wider lenses) and very little if any breathing.  They were really pretty.  I’m not sure about their coverage for FF.  

For me the biggest draw back in this realm is the lack of symmetrical speed.  I dislike moving from a wide lens that is a T2.9 or 3.1 and step up to a T1.5 in the 24mm, for instance.  Just bugs me and can be a pain, at times.  

The Rokinons are handy because they are super light, gears match up, but unfortunately, the length is different for most lenses meaning your matte box has to change distance from the camera to accommodate the different lens dimensions.  Very cheap though!

The one that was very interesting and make me pause was the set of Cine-Xenar III.  I think in the used world, they can be had a very good price, but list new is about $48,500.  

Good luck.  Let us know what you land on and why.


Matthew J. Clark
Director/DP 
Seattle, WA
www.StraightEIGHTFilms.com

Cameron Zohoori
 

Thanks all for the input - very helpful opinions and resources as we consider our options. I'll definitely be checking out the additional suggestions.

-- 

Cameron Zohoori
Senior Producer
Vignette Creative
storyiseverything.com
Seattle, WA 
USA

martyna K
 

I used Samyang cine primes on many occasions, mostly on Red and FS5, FS7 etc and need to say I would compare them to Canon Cine Primes easily, for 1/10 of the price. They are also much lighter.

I have a dislike to CP2 and only use them under duress from production for very clean documentary gigs, with 1/8 BPM anyway - they have annoying tendency to milk as well with the flare, and too sharp rendering when there is non.

Perhaps worth mentioning we use a lot of NIKON ais in UK for more creative pieces, and im a big fan of my set - would love to get them rehoused one day.

I normally insist to get Zeiss super speeds Mk2 on most of my spherical commercial work - perhaps closer to Samyang's in my opinion than Zeiss CP 2s.

Best
Martyna Knitter


Martynaknitter.com
DOP



Geoff Boyle
 

Ladies & Gentlemen,

 

It’s one of CML’s basic rules, a fundamental part of what makes CML work.

 

POST ONLY FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, DO NOT REPEAT RUMOURS & GOSSIP.

 

cml-chat@... is for that!

 

There have been a number of unsubstantiated statements here, one of which was modified after I called it out.

 

Stick to FACTS, not “I read it on the interweb or my mate said that he heard that…”

 

Also SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.

 

It’s not hard.

 

I’ve got a busy few weeks coming up and my tolerance will be severely reduced. I may just take my anger at airport security idiots out on people who don’t follow the rules. Don’t say you haven’t been warned.

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Zoetermeer

www.gboyle.co.uk

+31 (0) 637 155 076

 

Michael Grippo
 

I love my Canon cine primes!! 

Michael Grippo csc
Michael Grippo Productions Inc.
c: 416 823 8020 




On Mar 3, 2018, at 3:28 PM, Paul Curtis <paul@...> wrote:

On 3 Mar 2018, at 15:28, Stephen Gelb <stephengelb@...> wrote:
celere are rehoused rokinon lenses and xeen is same thing .
for the $$ rehoused gl
optics leica r is a great option. ur footage will look better compared to all the options u mentioned.
Can't speak whether there's truth to the celere and rokinon rumours.

But the Xeens are nice enough. Good look in a reasonable cine housing. I have a 16mm of that (as it was a *reasonable* match to SLR APO Primes). I find CA control and OOF to be pretty pleasing over all. I do believe the 16mm is different to the normal 16mm offering and certainly the coatings are different.

I find Leica Rs totally overrated having been down that path. Nothing special and they render quite differently wide open vs stopped down making them pretty useless for video (great for stills). Plus smaller focus turns and the usual issues.

Love the Leica Summicron Cines though. My win-the-lottery set of lenses.

cheers
Paul

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK

Feli di Giorgio
 


On Mar 3, 2018, at 11:03, Theo Stanley <theo@...> wrote:

In regards to the Celere’s i had heard that they were a mix of elements from different glass sources as part of their design, so not exactly the same as the rokinin or Xeen. Is this not true?

Thanks, 
Theo

Did Celere keep the octagonal bokeh in the production versions?

Thx

Feli di Giorgio

VFX / Bay Area

____________________________________________________


Paul Curtis
 

On 3 Mar 2018, at 15:28, Stephen Gelb <stephengelb@...> wrote:
celere are rehoused rokinon lenses and xeen is same thing .
for the $$ rehoused gl
optics leica r is a great option. ur footage will look better compared to all the options u mentioned.
Can't speak whether there's truth to the celere and rokinon rumours.

But the Xeens are nice enough. Good look in a reasonable cine housing. I have a 16mm of that (as it was a *reasonable* match to SLR APO Primes). I find CA control and OOF to be pretty pleasing over all. I do believe the 16mm is different to the normal 16mm offering and certainly the coatings are different.

I find Leica Rs totally overrated having been down that path. Nothing special and they render quite differently wide open vs stopped down making them pretty useless for video (great for stills). Plus smaller focus turns and the usual issues.

Love the Leica Summicron Cines though. My win-the-lottery set of lenses.

cheers
Paul

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK

Theo Stanley
 

In regards to the Celere’s i had heard that they were a mix of elements from different glass sources as part of their design, so not exactly the same as the rokinin or Xeen. Is this not true?

Thanks, 
Theo

Theo stanley
Dir / DP
Nyc, ny

mobile device

theo stanley / / director
theo@...
t. 212.209.7688 c. 646.330.8711

On Mar 3, 2018, at 10:28 AM, Stephen Gelb <stephengelb@...> wrote:

celere are rehoused rokinon lenses and xeen is same thing . 

for the $$ rehoused gl
optics leica r is a great option.  ur footage will look better compared to all the options u mentioned. 


On Mar 3, 2018, at 9:09 AM, Mitch Gross <mitchgrosscml@...> wrote:

On Mar 3, 2018, at 4:58 AM, Theo Stanley <theo@...> wrote:

I would be curious about people thoughts about Hanso Inno Tech’s Celere lenses

I would suggest looking into comparisons of these lenses with the Xeen primes. 


Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager 
Panasonic Media Entertainment Company
New York


John Brawley
 

Hi all.

I have the Zeiss CP ( a mix of CP2 superspeed and some CP3 XD’s  ) and I like them a lot simply because they are what a lot of other lenses aren’t.

Lightweight, interchangeable mounts, small, cheap, large image circle and good*

I own the MFT, EF and PL mounts for most of the full set of CP primes and I’m a fan of the 50mm Macro too.  I believe they make other mounts like Nikon.  They cover full frame.

They're are a bit visually plain, but that’s a good thing too, because I find they can intercut with other lenses pretty easily without drawing attention themselves.

I use them when I want really small or lightweight builds, sometimes for self focus pulling they have a pretty nice action when you’re on your own pulling off the barrel.

For sheer flexibility, size and price they’re hard to beat.  

Most focus pullers don’t like their focus scales and find them frustrating.  

*good - a highly subjective term that from my view speaks to their utility rather the images.  I find they are sometimes a bit too sharp. 

My other suggestion that I really like but am nearly hesitant to make is the SLR Magic APO primes. I hesitate only because their set is only three lenses, 25mm, 50mm and 85mm with a 32mm due very very soon.

I’ve been using them a lot lately and I like them more and more.  They are much prettier, not as harsh as the CP’s and more flattering.  They are also small, though a bit heavier.  They’re really well made considering the price of the full set.  I’ve just had them on focus motors for the last few months and no issues at all with the daily work and grind.  

I was shooting Primos mainly and occasionally using these for really intimate hand held work where the primos are a bit large and heavy and they intercut really well for feel.  A very nice feel.  

I ended up shooting a comparison between the CPs, the Primos and SLR Magic lenses here.


My 25mm had a little bump in the close focus action which you can see in the above test but they have changed the helicoil design and addressed this.

The flares are a little unusual but I wouldn’t say they’re offensive.  They’re just kind of unique.  Focus marks are great too and the focus pullers seem to like them.

SLR Magic are also doing some interesting anamorphic scenarios which aren’t announced yet but will make these even more interesting.  They have a history of 1.3X and 2X anamorphic mods.

Owning both these lenses, I find I reach for the SLR Magic when I want flattering and pretty and the CP’s if it’s lightweight utility that’s needed.

DISCLAIMER - I have hosted Andrew from SLR Magic on my set and given them lots of unpaid feedback as a cinematographer.  I really like what he’s trying to do.

I’ve also seen great work form the Sony Cine Alta Gen 2 lenses as well, they seem to be great value.  I haven’t shot them though.

JB


John Brawley
Currently - Chicago Illinois
DP

Paul Curtis
 

My company (a small creative agency/production house focusing on doc-style commercial and original productions) is looking to upgrade from our assortment of mostly still lenses (Canon EF primes/zooms, Sigma Art lenses, etc.) to a set of matched, mid-priced cine primes. We need FF coverage as we often shoot Sony A7SII as B-cam to an FS7 A-cam.
Google 'SALT lens tests', they're on reduser as well. Comparisons of the kinds of lenses you're looking at. Really well done tests too.

If you like the Art lenses then Sigma Primes are a logical choice.

I'm a massive fan of the SLR Magic Hyperprimes but there are only 3 focal lengths at the moment (soon to be 4). But these are my favs by a long shot and pretty lightweight as well. But they are certainly not the common choice!

cheers
Paul

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK

Stephen Gelb
 

celere are rehoused rokinon lenses and xeen is same thing . 

for the $$ rehoused gl
optics leica r is a great option.  ur footage will look better compared to all the options u mentioned. 


On Mar 3, 2018, at 9:09 AM, Mitch Gross <mitchgrosscml@...> wrote:

On Mar 3, 2018, at 4:58 AM, Theo Stanley <theo@...> wrote:

I would be curious about people thoughts about Hanso Inno Tech’s Celere lenses

I would suggest looking into comparisons of these lenses with the Xeen primes. 


Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager 
Panasonic Media Entertainment Company
New York


Alex Metcalfe DoP
 


I would be curious about people thoughts about Hanso Inno Tech’s Celere lenses

I have a set and found them to be very pleasing to the eye. The first ones made ( including ours) had some mechanical issues but I believe they have all been ironed out now. Our 36mm needed looking at but the company responded very quickly and gave us a replacement to use as we were mid shoot on a feature. I have written 2 blogs that give more details and examples if you would like to know more of my thoughts.



And


For their price point I think they are very good and I really enjoy using them. A good combination of predictability but still with character. I agree with Theo on the focus as my focus puller also took a little time to get their head around exact focus and fall off.

Alex Metcalfe
DoP
Sent from my LG Mobile

------ Original message------
From: Theo Stanley
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 13:22
Cc:
Subject:Re: [glass] Mid-level cine prime recommendations

I would be curious about people thoughts about Hanso Inno Tech’s Celere lenses in this same price range. also FF, f1.5, lightweight and with swappable coated / uncoated front elements, which sounds great, in theory, but which I have no tested. 

As these are less expensive I have been keeping a set around to problem solve when I am working on commercial jobs primarily with zoom lenses. 

They flare nicely, and I have been happy with their character and color, and been able to bring the image along wherever it needs to go in post color. 

The issues at their price point - the QC on the first delivery of the set was so/So, I had two lenses cleaned... also they have a mildly dirty bokeh, which some complain about, but hasn’t been a problem for me. In the last year I have had to send one lens for maintenance, which went back to Germany and took a fair bit of time.
That and my AC complains that they are trickier for focus pulling due to the distance between certain markings, but sure that will be better the more we work with them.  

Theo Stanley
Director / DP
Nyc 

On Mar 3, 2018, at 5:22 AM, sameer shrivastava via Cml.News <ss2sameer=yahoo.com@...> wrote:

Zeiss ZE Classic and CP.2 are the same line. there are many articles on net regarding that. Yes the mechanics are different and designed for cine use, and maybe the quality control.
I have personally compared ZE 50mm1.4 and 85mm 1.4 with CP2s 50 and 85mm side by side on set.
Milvus is a new line(weather sealed). 15, 35 are the same optics
Milvus 25mm 1.4 , 50mm 1.4 and 85mm 1.4 are new optical designs.

So is the 50mm and 85 mm in CP3.

Personally when i checked set of Milvus (25,35,50,85) all f1.4 i loved them. felt better than cp2. Even the Cp3 is all T2. 
Just install Gears to Milvus lenses. Zeiss also is selling them. but you can get them made cheaper outside.
I have spoken to many zeiss representatives reconfirming.

I would suggest ask Zeiss to Demo Milvus (1.4Set). they are keen to sell them. and compare them with CP2/CP3 . at least you won't find that quality in other brand lenses. here the set sells for about 6000$ plus taxes. including the shipping case and some freebies. Its a steal for quality full frame glass. it will cover Red Monstro Sensor too.
 
Sameer Shrivastava
D.O.P/Aerial Cinematographer/ Colourist/Smoke Artist
Dir. @ Birdeye Movies


On Saturday, March 3, 2018 3:30 PM, Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote:


Are you sure of that?
Or is it just gossip?

I'm pretty sure that they're not.

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076
www.gboyle.co.uk

On 3 Mar 2018 08:12, "sameer shrivastava via Cml.News" <ss2sameer=yahoo.com@...> wrote:
Have a look at Milvus set (25,35,50 and 85 are 1.4) and buy the 15mm from any series(Milvus/ZE Classic/CP.2) they all are same glass
 
Sameer Shrivastava
D.O.P/Aerial Cinematographer/ Colourist/Smoke Artist
Dir. @ Birdeye Movies




Mitch Gross
 

On Mar 3, 2018, at 4:58 AM, Theo Stanley <theo@...> wrote:

I would be curious about people thoughts about Hanso Inno Tech’s Celere lenses

I would suggest looking into comparisons of these lenses with the Xeen primes. 


Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager 
Panasonic Media Entertainment Company
New York


Theo Stanley
 

I would be curious about people thoughts about Hanso Inno Tech’s Celere lenses in this same price range. also FF, f1.5, lightweight and with swappable coated / uncoated front elements, which sounds great, in theory, but which I have no tested. 

As these are less expensive I have been keeping a set around to problem solve when I am working on commercial jobs primarily with zoom lenses. 

They flare nicely, and I have been happy with their character and color, and been able to bring the image along wherever it needs to go in post color. 

The issues at their price point - the QC on the first delivery of the set was so/So, I had two lenses cleaned... also they have a mildly dirty bokeh, which some complain about, but hasn’t been a problem for me. In the last year I have had to send one lens for maintenance, which went back to Germany and took a fair bit of time.
That and my AC complains that they are trickier for focus pulling due to the distance between certain markings, but sure that will be better the more we work with them.  

Theo Stanley
Director / DP
Nyc 

On Mar 3, 2018, at 5:22 AM, sameer shrivastava via Cml.News <ss2sameer=yahoo.com@...> wrote:

Zeiss ZE Classic and CP.2 are the same line. there are many articles on net regarding that. Yes the mechanics are different and designed for cine use, and maybe the quality control.
I have personally compared ZE 50mm1.4 and 85mm 1.4 with CP2s 50 and 85mm side by side on set.
Milvus is a new line(weather sealed). 15, 35 are the same optics
Milvus 25mm 1.4 , 50mm 1.4 and 85mm 1.4 are new optical designs.

So is the 50mm and 85 mm in CP3.

Personally when i checked set of Milvus (25,35,50,85) all f1.4 i loved them. felt better than cp2. Even the Cp3 is all T2. 
Just install Gears to Milvus lenses. Zeiss also is selling them. but you can get them made cheaper outside.
I have spoken to many zeiss representatives reconfirming.

I would suggest ask Zeiss to Demo Milvus (1.4Set). they are keen to sell them. and compare them with CP2/CP3 . at least you won't find that quality in other brand lenses. here the set sells for about 6000$ plus taxes. including the shipping case and some freebies. Its a steal for quality full frame glass. it will cover Red Monstro Sensor too.
 
Sameer Shrivastava
D.O.P/Aerial Cinematographer/ Colourist/Smoke Artist
Dir. @ Birdeye Movies
Phone +91 9820431618


On Saturday, March 3, 2018 3:30 PM, Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote:


Are you sure of that?
Or is it just gossip?

I'm pretty sure that they're not.

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076
www.gboyle.co.uk

On 3 Mar 2018 08:12, "sameer shrivastava via Cml.News" <ss2sameer=yahoo.com@...> wrote:
Have a look at Milvus set (25,35,50 and 85 are 1.4) and buy the 15mm from any series(Milvus/ZE Classic/CP.2) they all are same glass
 
Sameer Shrivastava
D.O.P/Aerial Cinematographer/ Colourist/Smoke Artist
Dir. @ Birdeye Movies




sameer shrivastava
 

Zeiss ZE Classic and CP.2 are the same line. there are many articles on net regarding that. Yes the mechanics are different and designed for cine use, and maybe the quality control.
I have personally compared ZE 50mm1.4 and 85mm 1.4 with CP2s 50 and 85mm side by side on set.
Milvus is a new line(weather sealed). 15, 35 are the same optics
Milvus 25mm 1.4 , 50mm 1.4 and 85mm 1.4 are new optical designs.

So is the 50mm and 85 mm in CP3.

Personally when i checked set of Milvus (25,35,50,85) all f1.4 i loved them. felt better than cp2. Even the Cp3 is all T2. 
Just install Gears to Milvus lenses. Zeiss also is selling them. but you can get them made cheaper outside.
I have spoken to many zeiss representatives reconfirming.

I would suggest ask Zeiss to Demo Milvus (1.4Set). they are keen to sell them. and compare them with CP2/CP3 . at least you won't find that quality in other brand lenses. here the set sells for about 6000$ plus taxes. including the shipping case and some freebies. Its a steal for quality full frame glass. it will cover Red Monstro Sensor too.
 
Sameer Shrivastava
D.O.P/Aerial Cinematographer/ Colourist/Smoke Artist
Dir. @ Birdeye Movies
http://www.birdeyemovies.com/index.html
Phone +91 9820431618


On Saturday, March 3, 2018 3:30 PM, Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote:


Are you sure of that?
Or is it just gossip?

I'm pretty sure that they're not.

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076
www.gboyle.co.uk

On 3 Mar 2018 08:12, "sameer shrivastava via Cml.News" <ss2sameer=yahoo.com@...> wrote:
Have a look at Milvus set (25,35,50 and 85 are 1.4) and buy the 15mm from any series(Milvus/ZE Classic/CP.2) they all are same glass
 
Sameer Shrivastava
D.O.P/Aerial Cinematographer/ Colourist/Smoke Artist
Dir. @ Birdeye Movies


Geoff Boyle
 

Are you sure of that?
Or is it just gossip?

I'm pretty sure that they're not.

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076
www.gboyle.co.uk

On 3 Mar 2018 08:12, "sameer shrivastava via Cml.News" <ss2sameer=yahoo.com@...> wrote:
Have a look at Milvus set (25,35,50 and 85 are 1.4) and buy the 15mm from any series(Milvus/ZE Classic/CP.2) they all are same glass
 
Sameer Shrivastava
D.O.P/Aerial Cinematographer/ Colourist/Smoke Artist
Dir. @ Birdeye Movies


sameer shrivastava
 

Have a look at Milvus set (25,35,50 and 85 are 1.4) and buy the 15mm from any series(Milvus/ZE Classic/CP.2) they all are same glass
 
Sameer Shrivastava
D.O.P/Aerial Cinematographer/ Colourist/Smoke Artist
Dir. @ Birdeye Movies
http://www.birdeyemovies.com/index.html
Phone +91 9820431618


On Saturday, March 3, 2018 9:01 AM, Cameron Zohoori <cameron@...> wrote:


Hello all,

My company (a small creative agency/production house focusing on doc-style commercial and original productions) is looking to upgrade from our assortment of mostly still lenses (Canon EF primes/zooms, Sigma Art lenses, etc.) to a set of matched, mid-priced cine primes. We need FF coverage as we often shoot Sony A7SII as B-cam to an FS7 A-cam.

We're currently looking at Zeiss CP2, Schneider Xenon, Sigma FF, Canon CN-E, and maybe the Xeens. Online comparisons and reviews are all over the board in their quality/consistency of testing. We've tested a couple but would very much like to hear thoughts from other filmmakers with real world experience with these lenses. They all seem like good options; does anyone have thoughts on practical differences between these or similar choices, red flags in terms of optics/usability, or which you would trust as workhorse lenses for a range of doc projects? Happy to hear subjective opinions...

Thank you
-- 

Cameron Zohoori
Senior Producer
Vignette Creative
storyiseverything.com
Seattle, WA 
USA 



Jimmy Reynolds
 

On 03 Mar 2018, at 06:45, Marty Oppenheimer <marty@...> wrote:

I would also add the current Sony set.
6 lenses, 20 to 135mm, well matched and under $13,000 new
Marty Oppenheimer
Oppenheimer Camera
Seattle

Sent from my HTC on T-Mobile 4G LTE

----- Reply message -----
From: "Mitch Gross" <mitchgrosscml@...>
To: <cml-glass@...>
Subject: [glass] Mid-level cine prime recommendations
Date: Fri, Mar 2, 2018 8:11 PM

> On Mar 2, 2018, at 2:55 PM, Cameron Zohoori <cameron@...> wrote:
> 
> We're currently looking at Zeiss CP2, Schneider Xenon, Sigma FF, Canon CN-E, and maybe the Xeens.

I suggest throwing the Tokina Vistas into that mix as well. 


Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager 
Panasonic Media Entertainment Company
New York

> 

Marty Oppenheimer
 

I would also add the current Sony set.
6 lenses, 20 to 135mm, well matched and under $13,000 new
Marty Oppenheimer
Oppenheimer Camera
Seattle

Sent from my HTC on T-Mobile 4G LTE

----- Reply message -----
From: "Mitch Gross" <mitchgrosscml@...>
To: <cml-glass@...>
Subject: [glass] Mid-level cine prime recommendations
Date: Fri, Mar 2, 2018 8:11 PM

> On Mar 2, 2018, at 2:55 PM, Cameron Zohoori <cameron@...> wrote:
> 
> We're currently looking at Zeiss CP2, Schneider Xenon, Sigma FF, Canon CN-E, and maybe the Xeens.

I suggest throwing the Tokina Vistas into that mix as well. 


Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager 
Panasonic Media Entertainment Company
New York

> 

Mitch Gross
 

On Mar 2, 2018, at 2:55 PM, Cameron Zohoori <cameron@...> wrote:

We're currently looking at Zeiss CP2, Schneider Xenon, Sigma FF, Canon CN-E, and maybe the Xeens.

I suggest throwing the Tokina Vistas into that mix as well. 


Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager 
Panasonic Media Entertainment Company
New York


Cameron Zohoori
 

Hello all,

My company (a small creative agency/production house focusing on doc-style commercial and original productions) is looking to upgrade from our assortment of mostly still lenses (Canon EF primes/zooms, Sigma Art lenses, etc.) to a set of matched, mid-priced cine primes. We need FF coverage as we often shoot Sony A7SII as B-cam to an FS7 A-cam.

We're currently looking at Zeiss CP2, Schneider Xenon, Sigma FF, Canon CN-E, and maybe the Xeens. Online comparisons and reviews are all over the board in their quality/consistency of testing. We've tested a couple but would very much like to hear thoughts from other filmmakers with real world experience with these lenses. They all seem like good options; does anyone have thoughts on practical differences between these or similar choices, red flags in terms of optics/usability, or which you would trust as workhorse lenses for a range of doc projects? Happy to hear subjective opinions...

Thank you
-- 

Cameron Zohoori
Senior Producer
Vignette Creative
storyiseverything.com
Seattle, WA 
USA 

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