Topics

Arri Macros

katephelan@...
 

Hi cml-
i'm shooting a tabletop job next week and i've got some tricky constraints. i need to keep an object sharp about 20" from camera but i also need to hold action from around 9" away from the lens. Conventional lenses (Cooke S4s, eg) have a close focus of 16" on a 40mm. With that math- most of my frame where the action will happen will not be sharp. I've lined up the shot at home and the constraints of fitting in hands, the table, the product and action are all very tight. Dioptors won't work so macros came up.

my vendor has suggested some arri macros (16, 24, 32, 40 & 50mm). i've never used them and i'm a little wary. any suggestions or words of advice?

kate 
dp nyc

Ross Thomas
 

The Arri Macro 100 will fix all your problems, clean your kitchen, put you to bed and you’ll wake up with a Roth IRA and a yacht.

You could also use split diopters? 

On Sep 14, 2018, at 3:26 PM, katephelan via Cml.News <katephelan=me.com@...> wrote:

Hi cml-
i'm shooting a tabletop job next week and i've got some tricky constraints. i need to keep an object sharp about 20" from camera but i also need to hold action from around 9" away from the lens. Conventional lenses (Cooke S4s, eg) have a close focus of 16" on a 40mm. With that math- most of my frame where the action will happen will not be sharp. I've lined up the shot at home and the constraints of fitting in hands, the table, the product and action are all very tight. Dioptors won't work so macros came up.

my vendor has suggested some arri macros (16, 24, 32, 40 & 50mm). i've never used them and i'm a little wary. any suggestions or words of advice?

kate 
dp nyc

Graham Futerfas
 

Arri Macros are good, I use them regularly on toy shoots.

Also, an Optex Excellence Probe Lens might be your best bet. I’m having a hard time exactly understanding your shot, but I use the Optex on small toys all the time because they can macro and go from really close to pull back to a wide shot. You could also look at a Revolution lens system, which will focus right up to the front element of the lens, but the Optex’s advantage is low profile and can get fairly low over a table top, so you have more flexibility.

Be prepared for a lot of light. An extra stop of depth of field might only give you an extra inch or two in the macro world, and then the director will often want to go slow motion...

Best,
-Graham




---
Graham Futerfas
Director of Photography
Los Angeles, CA
www.GFuterfas.com
---

Aaron Wise
 

...object sharp about 20" from camera but i also need to hold action from around 9" away from the lens...

Have you considered slant focus (tilt shift) lenses? 

Aaron Wise 
Cinematographer (specializing in stopmotion) 
Los Angeles 

Michael Sippel
 

If you’re not going for explicitly macro-range magnification and just need the closer focus, you could try to find a 16, 24, or 32mm Zeiss Standard Speed that has had the close focus endstop removed. That will get you extreme close focus without having to get a proper macro.

Mike Sippel
Senior Field Support Technician
Arri Rental Atlanta
All opinions my own &c.

Mako Koiwai
 

Problem with those pulled pin standard speeds is very slow focus, if you need to follow focus up close. It’s about three complete turns from Infinity to minimum focus. It’s why there are true macro lenses. THOSE lenses are then difficult to do regular distance follow focusing, because you go from Infinity to say three feet in a couple of inches of barrel movement.

For the OP’s issue, Major Light will be the problem. He should consider a Varicam, with it’s 5,000 iso Option.

He should download a depth of field app. He SHOULD have a proper Cinematography App package like pCam!

At least Macro lenses allow one to stop down to say f32.

Here is a pCam screen shot, 40mm, f16, about 2” DOF focused at 16”

Note that depth of field is split more 50/50 then 1/3 2/3rds at close distances.



Makofoto, Decades doing table work work, s. pasadena, ca


Dwight Lindsey
 

Kate:

 

You’ve had suggestions for split diopters, probe lenses and swing shift lenses.   All of those are reasonable options.

 

If you’ve got a line in the shot that will hide the split diopter . . . something like a tabletop edge, you could put the split on that edge, so you won’t see it at all.

 

With a swing shift, something like the Clairmont Swing Shift, you can lay the plane of sharp focus above and parallel to the tabletop.  This is a really good option, but do practice a bit before the shoot.

 

Probe lenses are typically not quite as sharp as prime lenses . . . but you could try those.

 

The IBE Raptor lenses deserve a mention.  Really sharp and you can focus from Macro to Infinity.

 

While I’m not sure they would solve your specific problem of keeping everything sharp from 9” to 20”, you might also consider our Brilliant Macro Attachment lenses.  If you put them on an excellent zoom like the Zeiss CZ 70-200, they’ll give you really sharp images with a lot of flexibility.  They hold focus during zoom . . . so you could either use the zoom to frame the shot and keep it there, or add some zoom to the shot.

 

The Brilliant Macro lenses don’t eat light, so whatever T stop the lens is, you’ll still have.  Light loss in these macro attachments is about 3%.

 

The web pages for the Brilliant Macro Lenses, including some video, are here:

https://www.lindseyoptics.com/lenses/macro-attachment-lenses/

Browse into one of the lenses and you’ll find some video.

 

I see you’re in NY.  AbleCine has a set of our Brilliant Macro lenses, which they keep in Los Angeles, but they tell me they share easily and rapidly between LA and NY.

 

Dwight

Dwight Lindsey

President

Lindsey Optics, LLC

+1 661-522-7101 X102 (Office)

+1 818-634-1503 (Mobile)

www.lindseyoptics.com

 

Lindsey Optics horizontal logo 400 px wide

 

From: cml-glass@... <cml-glass@...> On Behalf Of katephelan via Cml.News
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 3:27 PM
To: cml-glass@...
Subject: [cml-glass] Arri Macros

 

Hi cml-
i'm shooting a tabletop job next week and i've got some tricky constraints. i need to keep an object sharp about 20" from camera but i also need to hold action from around 9" away from the lens. Conventional lenses (Cooke S4s, eg) have a close focus of 16" on a 40mm. With that math- most of my frame where the action will happen will not be sharp. I've lined up the shot at home and the constraints of fitting in hands, the table, the product and action are all very tight. Dioptors won't work so macros came up.

my vendor has suggested some arri macros (16, 24, 32, 40 & 50mm). i've never used them and i'm a little wary. any suggestions or words of advice?

kate 
dp nyc

Mako Koiwai
 


With a swing shift, something like the Clairmont Swing Shift, you can lay the plane of sharp focus above and parallel to the tabletop. This is a really good option, but do practice a bit before the shoot.


***********

Typically doesn’t work for table top. You are simply replacing perpendicular depth of field with depth of field that is “laying down.” It’s still going to be minuscule at those distances.

This type of situation is often dealt with using blue screen. Shoot the back ground … the objects at 20’ … and do a separate pass with the foreground elements against blue screen. A good DIT should be able to composite it “live.”


makofoto, s. pasadena, ca.

Dwight Lindsey
 

Mako:

 

I understand.

 

You certainly have more practical experience with table top  than I do.

 

I’m sure you’re correct.

 

Dwight

 

Dwight Lindsey

President

Lindsey Optics, LLC

+1 661-522-7101 X102 (Office)

+1 818-634-1503 (Mobile)

www.lindseyoptics.com

 

Lindsey Optics horizontal logo 400 px wide

 

From: cml-glass@... <cml-glass@...> On Behalf Of Mako Koiwai
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 10:06 PM
To: cml-glass@...
Subject: Re: [cml-glass] Arri Macros

 

On Sep 14, 2018, at 21:35, Dwight Lindsey <dwight@...> wrote:

With a swing shift, something like the Clairmont Swing Shift, you can lay the plane of sharp focus above and parallel to the tabletop. This is a really good option, but do practice a bit before the shoot.


***********

Typically doesn’t work for table top. You are simply replacing perpendicular depth of field with depth of field that is “laying down.” It’s still going to be minuscule at those distances.

This type of situation is often dealt with using blue screen. Shoot the back ground … the objects at 20’ … and do a separate pass with the foreground elements against blue screen. A good DIT should be able to composite it “live.”


makofoto, s. pasadena, ca.

Mark Kenfield
 

Another option would be to use a smaller-than-S35 format to help maximise DoF. I don't know how much resolution you need for your final deliverable. But if you take something like a Red Helium, pair it with a wide-angle macro, window it down to 2k-3k, and drop the ISO down to 250 or so (to keep the noise floor down). You'll get nice images with a bit more DoF to work with.

Cheers,

Mark Kenfield 
Cinematographer 
Melbourne 

0400 044 500

On 15 Sep 2018, at 3:41 pm, Dwight Lindsey <dwight@...> wrote:

Mako:

 

I understand.

 

You certainly have more practical experience with table top  than I do.

 

I’m sure you’re correct.

 

Dwight

 

Dwight Lindsey

President

Lindsey Optics, LLC

+1 661-522-7101 X102 (Office)

+1 818-634-1503 (Mobile)

www.lindseyoptics.com

 

<image001.jpg>

 

From: cml-glass@... <cml-glass@...> On Behalf Of Mako Koiwai
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 10:06 PM
To: cml-glass@...
Subject: Re: [cml-glass] Arri Macros

 

On Sep 14, 2018, at 21:35, Dwight Lindsey <dwight@...> wrote:

With a swing shift, something like the Clairmont Swing Shift, you can lay the plane of sharp focus above and parallel to the tabletop. This is a really good option, but do practice a bit before the shoot.


***********

Typically doesn’t work for table top. You are simply replacing perpendicular depth of field with depth of field that is “laying down.” It’s still going to be minuscule at those distances.

This type of situation is often dealt with using blue screen. Shoot the back ground … the objects at 20’ … and do a separate pass with the foreground elements against blue screen. A good DIT should be able to composite it “live.”


makofoto, s. pasadena, ca.

Mako Koiwai
 

“Drop the ISO ...”

************

Sure, don’t care that you are burning up the talent trying to get a 22 stop at 250 ISO! :-)

So far at the distances she’s shooting we have about 2” of DOF, at a 16 stop ... trying to cover from 20” to I’m guessing about 12.”

She said 20” from the camera to 9” in front of the lens.

With the 40 mm she wants to use, we are talking about this field of view.


Makofoto, s. pasadena, ca


Colin Elves
 

Having looked at the DoF it looks like a S16 image is pretty much the only option if you want to be doing it ‘in camera’

Something like an 18mm matches the 40mm FOV and you get 9” to 19” at T32

Although setting fire to your talent still remains a problem so maybe the Helium is such a great choice there.

Doesn’t the Varicam LT also do a 2K S16 crop? - so that ISO 5000 might help, pulled to ISO 2500 would be cleaner and you can get the required exposure from a Skypanel S360s at around 10ft according to Arri’s app.

Any lower ISO and it starts warning that the required light involves placing the lamp within minimum safe distances!

Although so far comping foreground and background sounds like the most practical option!



Colin Elves
Director of Photography


“Drop the ISO ...”

************

Sure, don’t care that you are burning up the talent trying to get a 22 stop at 250 ISO! :-)

Graham Futerfas
 

Sorry Kate, I feel like we went way off topic, my fault. It was a good discussion about depth of field though. I’m not sure I agree about smaller sensor being the answer, but that’s another topic that you didn’t ask about.

The Arri Macros are actually really beautiful lenses, and I do carry them a lot for this type of shot, where Diopters won’t cut it, or you need to go from close to full pull back. I haven’t really tested them outside of tabletop work, but they have a slight vintage-y feel to me, very pretty. If you like S4’s, then the Macro’s will probably please you. They’re not sharp like the Leica’s, but they’re very well built.

I like to use the 24 and 32mm a lot, because it’s so much more interesting in the tabletop world than going long lens.

They’re far sharper than Probe lenses, but I often suggest the Optex probe because it makes some things easier (or possible). You can reach the lens over a table and get right in on an object, and then slide back, without having to do any crazy camera rigging upside down or anything. If you don’t need that ability, then the Macro will do it.

I think I’ve had a few shots where we needed to put a diopter onto a Macro because it just wouldn’t focus close enough or magnify enough.

Are there any specific questions you have about that set of lenses? I do really like them, personally.

Best,
-Graham



---
Graham Futerfas
Director of Photography
Los Angeles, CA
www.GFuterfas.com
---

Florian Stadler
 

I wanted to clarify something from the original poster:

-Cooke publishes their minimum focus distance as focus from the front element of the lens, not from the image plane

-the OP says she needs to hold 9” away from the lens, not away from the image plane. Was that the intention? Which would make the task a little more feasible in camera.

Regardless of the above question I would go with the 50mm Arri Macro because the 16, 24, 32 and 40 are pin removed standard speeds with a minimum aperture of 22, whereas the 50mm is a true Macro that closes down to 64 and is optimized in its design for small apertures.

Best

Florian Stadler, DP, LA
www.florianstadler.com
www.buntedarben.com

Mako Koiwai
 

Well since she was thinking 40 mm, why not stay with the Arri 40 mm Macro.

At f64 she would have her range covered. Perhaps she could even open up some ... because lighting to a 64 stop is not fun. Been there ...

Anyway, the Panasonic Varicam, using it’s 5,000 iso setting ... as used on BETTER CALL SAUL ... would really make things easier! Especially doing Close-Up work, noise is often covered up by Detail. It’s not like a wide shot of trees where the Detail is very small.


MakoMacroFoto, s. pasadena, ca 

Florian Stadler
 



On Sep 15, 2018, at 11:42 AM, Mako Koiwai <mako1foto@...> wrote:
Well since she was thinking 40 mm, why not stay with the Arri 40 mm Macro.

The 40mm is a reworked standard prime and  only closes down to 22


The 50mm closes down to 64 although upon further reading T45 and T64 are only available when focusing in the 1:1 magnification range...


I think Varicam or a 4-6K cut of the Helium sensor would be great choices for this depending on the delivery requirements.

Florian Stadler, DP, LA


katephelan@...
 

forgive me if this posts multiple times- i tried to post from my email & it kept getting bounced back so i'm going from the site directly

 

thanks everyone for your thoughts

and thank you for confirming what was troubling me. the depth of field issue is so pronounced that i went back to the reference image i was trying to match and  tried to reimagine how they could have a child’s hand in frame (that’s not on fire) w 14" of sharpness starting at 9” from camera (with product at 20” from camera that is tack sharp). i don’t see how it’s possible?

 

i believe it’s actually animated stills and not motion picture capture. the spot has a steppiness to it i thought was a post effect. it was presented to me as shot footage to match but i think it’s stills. moreover the reflections in the product look like strobes and not film lighting which didn’t ring a bell until i put it all together
there's no way anyone shoots at f64 w a kid.

 

i’ll know more on monday when we go back to the client for clarification

i’ll be sure to post and let you know
and thanks geoff- cml is a life-saver

thanks everyone!

kate

 

kate phelan

nyc dp

makofoto@...
 



The 40mm is a reworked standard prime and  only closes down to 22  

****************

Ah … good to know. It’s been years since I’ve used them.

Thanks …


makofoto, s. pas, ca 

David Hollander
 

Perhaps the Frazier lens would be of some use here?

David Hollander 
DP/Producer 
San Antonio, TX

On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 10:42 PM <makofoto@...> wrote:


The 40mm is a reworked standard prime and  only closes down to 22  

****************

Ah … good to know. It’s been years since I’ve used them.

Thanks …


makofoto, s. pas, ca 

Mako Koiwai
 

On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 9:08 PM David Hollander <fourthdensity@...> wrote:
Perhaps the Frazier lens would be of some use here?

******************

There is no Magic with the Frazier. Optics physics doesn’t suddenly change. Of course the wide lenses on a Frazier give it more depth of field. The Maximum aperture of T7.1 helps a lot. (The rotatable prism used in the Frazier/T-Rex and Revolution dictates that max Aperture of 7.1)

In fact one needs to stop down to at least an 11 to get decent resolution. 

Add a lens around 40 mm, as “requested” and one is back to the same DOF problems.

Makofoto, ret. s. pasadena, ca