Topics

Mid-level cine prime recommendations

Cameron Zohoori
 

Hello all,

My company (a small creative agency/production house focusing on doc-style commercial and original productions) is looking to upgrade from our assortment of mostly still lenses (Canon EF primes/zooms, Sigma Art lenses, etc.) to a set of matched, mid-priced cine primes. We need FF coverage as we often shoot Sony A7SII as B-cam to an FS7 A-cam.

We're currently looking at Zeiss CP2, Schneider Xenon, Sigma FF, Canon CN-E, and maybe the Xeens. Online comparisons and reviews are all over the board in their quality/consistency of testing. We've tested a couple but would very much like to hear thoughts from other filmmakers with real world experience with these lenses. They all seem like good options; does anyone have thoughts on practical differences between these or similar choices, red flags in terms of optics/usability, or which you would trust as workhorse lenses for a range of doc projects? Happy to hear subjective opinions...

Thank you
-- 

Cameron Zohoori
Senior Producer
Vignette Creative
storyiseverything.com
Seattle, WA 
USA 

Mitch Gross
 

On Mar 2, 2018, at 2:55 PM, Cameron Zohoori <cameron@...> wrote:

We're currently looking at Zeiss CP2, Schneider Xenon, Sigma FF, Canon CN-E, and maybe the Xeens.

I suggest throwing the Tokina Vistas into that mix as well. 


Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager 
Panasonic Media Entertainment Company
New York


Marty Oppenheimer
 

I would also add the current Sony set.
6 lenses, 20 to 135mm, well matched and under $13,000 new
Marty Oppenheimer
Oppenheimer Camera
Seattle

Sent from my HTC on T-Mobile 4G LTE

----- Reply message -----
From: "Mitch Gross" <mitchgrosscml@...>
To: <cml-glass@...>
Subject: [glass] Mid-level cine prime recommendations
Date: Fri, Mar 2, 2018 8:11 PM

> On Mar 2, 2018, at 2:55 PM, Cameron Zohoori <cameron@...> wrote:
> 
> We're currently looking at Zeiss CP2, Schneider Xenon, Sigma FF, Canon CN-E, and maybe the Xeens.

I suggest throwing the Tokina Vistas into that mix as well. 


Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager 
Panasonic Media Entertainment Company
New York

> 

Jimmy Reynolds
 

On 03 Mar 2018, at 06:45, Marty Oppenheimer <marty@...> wrote:

I would also add the current Sony set.
6 lenses, 20 to 135mm, well matched and under $13,000 new
Marty Oppenheimer
Oppenheimer Camera
Seattle

Sent from my HTC on T-Mobile 4G LTE

----- Reply message -----
From: "Mitch Gross" <mitchgrosscml@...>
To: <cml-glass@...>
Subject: [glass] Mid-level cine prime recommendations
Date: Fri, Mar 2, 2018 8:11 PM

> On Mar 2, 2018, at 2:55 PM, Cameron Zohoori <cameron@...> wrote:
> 
> We're currently looking at Zeiss CP2, Schneider Xenon, Sigma FF, Canon CN-E, and maybe the Xeens.

I suggest throwing the Tokina Vistas into that mix as well. 


Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager 
Panasonic Media Entertainment Company
New York

> 

sameer shrivastava
 

Have a look at Milvus set (25,35,50 and 85 are 1.4) and buy the 15mm from any series(Milvus/ZE Classic/CP.2) they all are same glass
 
Sameer Shrivastava
D.O.P/Aerial Cinematographer/ Colourist/Smoke Artist
Dir. @ Birdeye Movies
http://www.birdeyemovies.com/index.html
Phone +91 9820431618


On Saturday, March 3, 2018 9:01 AM, Cameron Zohoori <cameron@...> wrote:


Hello all,

My company (a small creative agency/production house focusing on doc-style commercial and original productions) is looking to upgrade from our assortment of mostly still lenses (Canon EF primes/zooms, Sigma Art lenses, etc.) to a set of matched, mid-priced cine primes. We need FF coverage as we often shoot Sony A7SII as B-cam to an FS7 A-cam.

We're currently looking at Zeiss CP2, Schneider Xenon, Sigma FF, Canon CN-E, and maybe the Xeens. Online comparisons and reviews are all over the board in their quality/consistency of testing. We've tested a couple but would very much like to hear thoughts from other filmmakers with real world experience with these lenses. They all seem like good options; does anyone have thoughts on practical differences between these or similar choices, red flags in terms of optics/usability, or which you would trust as workhorse lenses for a range of doc projects? Happy to hear subjective opinions...

Thank you
-- 

Cameron Zohoori
Senior Producer
Vignette Creative
storyiseverything.com
Seattle, WA 
USA 



Geoff Boyle
 

Are you sure of that?
Or is it just gossip?

I'm pretty sure that they're not.

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076
www.gboyle.co.uk

On 3 Mar 2018 08:12, "sameer shrivastava via Cml.News" <ss2sameer=yahoo.com@...> wrote:
Have a look at Milvus set (25,35,50 and 85 are 1.4) and buy the 15mm from any series(Milvus/ZE Classic/CP.2) they all are same glass
 
Sameer Shrivastava
D.O.P/Aerial Cinematographer/ Colourist/Smoke Artist
Dir. @ Birdeye Movies


sameer shrivastava
 

Zeiss ZE Classic and CP.2 are the same line. there are many articles on net regarding that. Yes the mechanics are different and designed for cine use, and maybe the quality control.
I have personally compared ZE 50mm1.4 and 85mm 1.4 with CP2s 50 and 85mm side by side on set.
Milvus is a new line(weather sealed). 15, 35 are the same optics
Milvus 25mm 1.4 , 50mm 1.4 and 85mm 1.4 are new optical designs.

So is the 50mm and 85 mm in CP3.

Personally when i checked set of Milvus (25,35,50,85) all f1.4 i loved them. felt better than cp2. Even the Cp3 is all T2. 
Just install Gears to Milvus lenses. Zeiss also is selling them. but you can get them made cheaper outside.
I have spoken to many zeiss representatives reconfirming.

I would suggest ask Zeiss to Demo Milvus (1.4Set). they are keen to sell them. and compare them with CP2/CP3 . at least you won't find that quality in other brand lenses. here the set sells for about 6000$ plus taxes. including the shipping case and some freebies. Its a steal for quality full frame glass. it will cover Red Monstro Sensor too.
 
Sameer Shrivastava
D.O.P/Aerial Cinematographer/ Colourist/Smoke Artist
Dir. @ Birdeye Movies
http://www.birdeyemovies.com/index.html
Phone +91 9820431618


On Saturday, March 3, 2018 3:30 PM, Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote:


Are you sure of that?
Or is it just gossip?

I'm pretty sure that they're not.

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076
www.gboyle.co.uk

On 3 Mar 2018 08:12, "sameer shrivastava via Cml.News" <ss2sameer=yahoo.com@...> wrote:
Have a look at Milvus set (25,35,50 and 85 are 1.4) and buy the 15mm from any series(Milvus/ZE Classic/CP.2) they all are same glass
 
Sameer Shrivastava
D.O.P/Aerial Cinematographer/ Colourist/Smoke Artist
Dir. @ Birdeye Movies


Theo Stanley
 

I would be curious about people thoughts about Hanso Inno Tech’s Celere lenses in this same price range. also FF, f1.5, lightweight and with swappable coated / uncoated front elements, which sounds great, in theory, but which I have no tested. 

As these are less expensive I have been keeping a set around to problem solve when I am working on commercial jobs primarily with zoom lenses. 

They flare nicely, and I have been happy with their character and color, and been able to bring the image along wherever it needs to go in post color. 

The issues at their price point - the QC on the first delivery of the set was so/So, I had two lenses cleaned... also they have a mildly dirty bokeh, which some complain about, but hasn’t been a problem for me. In the last year I have had to send one lens for maintenance, which went back to Germany and took a fair bit of time.
That and my AC complains that they are trickier for focus pulling due to the distance between certain markings, but sure that will be better the more we work with them.  

Theo Stanley
Director / DP
Nyc 

On Mar 3, 2018, at 5:22 AM, sameer shrivastava via Cml.News <ss2sameer=yahoo.com@...> wrote:

Zeiss ZE Classic and CP.2 are the same line. there are many articles on net regarding that. Yes the mechanics are different and designed for cine use, and maybe the quality control.
I have personally compared ZE 50mm1.4 and 85mm 1.4 with CP2s 50 and 85mm side by side on set.
Milvus is a new line(weather sealed). 15, 35 are the same optics
Milvus 25mm 1.4 , 50mm 1.4 and 85mm 1.4 are new optical designs.

So is the 50mm and 85 mm in CP3.

Personally when i checked set of Milvus (25,35,50,85) all f1.4 i loved them. felt better than cp2. Even the Cp3 is all T2. 
Just install Gears to Milvus lenses. Zeiss also is selling them. but you can get them made cheaper outside.
I have spoken to many zeiss representatives reconfirming.

I would suggest ask Zeiss to Demo Milvus (1.4Set). they are keen to sell them. and compare them with CP2/CP3 . at least you won't find that quality in other brand lenses. here the set sells for about 6000$ plus taxes. including the shipping case and some freebies. Its a steal for quality full frame glass. it will cover Red Monstro Sensor too.
 
Sameer Shrivastava
D.O.P/Aerial Cinematographer/ Colourist/Smoke Artist
Dir. @ Birdeye Movies
Phone +91 9820431618


On Saturday, March 3, 2018 3:30 PM, Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote:


Are you sure of that?
Or is it just gossip?

I'm pretty sure that they're not.

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076
www.gboyle.co.uk

On 3 Mar 2018 08:12, "sameer shrivastava via Cml.News" <ss2sameer=yahoo.com@...> wrote:
Have a look at Milvus set (25,35,50 and 85 are 1.4) and buy the 15mm from any series(Milvus/ZE Classic/CP.2) they all are same glass
 
Sameer Shrivastava
D.O.P/Aerial Cinematographer/ Colourist/Smoke Artist
Dir. @ Birdeye Movies




Mitch Gross
 

On Mar 3, 2018, at 4:58 AM, Theo Stanley <theo@...> wrote:

I would be curious about people thoughts about Hanso Inno Tech’s Celere lenses

I would suggest looking into comparisons of these lenses with the Xeen primes. 


Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager 
Panasonic Media Entertainment Company
New York


Alex Metcalfe DoP
 


I would be curious about people thoughts about Hanso Inno Tech’s Celere lenses

I have a set and found them to be very pleasing to the eye. The first ones made ( including ours) had some mechanical issues but I believe they have all been ironed out now. Our 36mm needed looking at but the company responded very quickly and gave us a replacement to use as we were mid shoot on a feature. I have written 2 blogs that give more details and examples if you would like to know more of my thoughts.



And


For their price point I think they are very good and I really enjoy using them. A good combination of predictability but still with character. I agree with Theo on the focus as my focus puller also took a little time to get their head around exact focus and fall off.

Alex Metcalfe
DoP
Sent from my LG Mobile

------ Original message------
From: Theo Stanley
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 13:22
Cc:
Subject:Re: [glass] Mid-level cine prime recommendations

I would be curious about people thoughts about Hanso Inno Tech’s Celere lenses in this same price range. also FF, f1.5, lightweight and with swappable coated / uncoated front elements, which sounds great, in theory, but which I have no tested. 

As these are less expensive I have been keeping a set around to problem solve when I am working on commercial jobs primarily with zoom lenses. 

They flare nicely, and I have been happy with their character and color, and been able to bring the image along wherever it needs to go in post color. 

The issues at their price point - the QC on the first delivery of the set was so/So, I had two lenses cleaned... also they have a mildly dirty bokeh, which some complain about, but hasn’t been a problem for me. In the last year I have had to send one lens for maintenance, which went back to Germany and took a fair bit of time.
That and my AC complains that they are trickier for focus pulling due to the distance between certain markings, but sure that will be better the more we work with them.  

Theo Stanley
Director / DP
Nyc 

On Mar 3, 2018, at 5:22 AM, sameer shrivastava via Cml.News <ss2sameer=yahoo.com@...> wrote:

Zeiss ZE Classic and CP.2 are the same line. there are many articles on net regarding that. Yes the mechanics are different and designed for cine use, and maybe the quality control.
I have personally compared ZE 50mm1.4 and 85mm 1.4 with CP2s 50 and 85mm side by side on set.
Milvus is a new line(weather sealed). 15, 35 are the same optics
Milvus 25mm 1.4 , 50mm 1.4 and 85mm 1.4 are new optical designs.

So is the 50mm and 85 mm in CP3.

Personally when i checked set of Milvus (25,35,50,85) all f1.4 i loved them. felt better than cp2. Even the Cp3 is all T2. 
Just install Gears to Milvus lenses. Zeiss also is selling them. but you can get them made cheaper outside.
I have spoken to many zeiss representatives reconfirming.

I would suggest ask Zeiss to Demo Milvus (1.4Set). they are keen to sell them. and compare them with CP2/CP3 . at least you won't find that quality in other brand lenses. here the set sells for about 6000$ plus taxes. including the shipping case and some freebies. Its a steal for quality full frame glass. it will cover Red Monstro Sensor too.
 
Sameer Shrivastava
D.O.P/Aerial Cinematographer/ Colourist/Smoke Artist
Dir. @ Birdeye Movies


On Saturday, March 3, 2018 3:30 PM, Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote:


Are you sure of that?
Or is it just gossip?

I'm pretty sure that they're not.

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076
www.gboyle.co.uk

On 3 Mar 2018 08:12, "sameer shrivastava via Cml.News" <ss2sameer=yahoo.com@...> wrote:
Have a look at Milvus set (25,35,50 and 85 are 1.4) and buy the 15mm from any series(Milvus/ZE Classic/CP.2) they all are same glass
 
Sameer Shrivastava
D.O.P/Aerial Cinematographer/ Colourist/Smoke Artist
Dir. @ Birdeye Movies




Stephen Gelb
 

celere are rehoused rokinon lenses and xeen is same thing . 

for the $$ rehoused gl
optics leica r is a great option.  ur footage will look better compared to all the options u mentioned. 


On Mar 3, 2018, at 9:09 AM, Mitch Gross <mitchgrosscml@...> wrote:

On Mar 3, 2018, at 4:58 AM, Theo Stanley <theo@...> wrote:

I would be curious about people thoughts about Hanso Inno Tech’s Celere lenses

I would suggest looking into comparisons of these lenses with the Xeen primes. 


Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager 
Panasonic Media Entertainment Company
New York


Paul Curtis
 

My company (a small creative agency/production house focusing on doc-style commercial and original productions) is looking to upgrade from our assortment of mostly still lenses (Canon EF primes/zooms, Sigma Art lenses, etc.) to a set of matched, mid-priced cine primes. We need FF coverage as we often shoot Sony A7SII as B-cam to an FS7 A-cam.
Google 'SALT lens tests', they're on reduser as well. Comparisons of the kinds of lenses you're looking at. Really well done tests too.

If you like the Art lenses then Sigma Primes are a logical choice.

I'm a massive fan of the SLR Magic Hyperprimes but there are only 3 focal lengths at the moment (soon to be 4). But these are my favs by a long shot and pretty lightweight as well. But they are certainly not the common choice!

cheers
Paul

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK

John Brawley
 

Hi all.

I have the Zeiss CP ( a mix of CP2 superspeed and some CP3 XD’s  ) and I like them a lot simply because they are what a lot of other lenses aren’t.

Lightweight, interchangeable mounts, small, cheap, large image circle and good*

I own the MFT, EF and PL mounts for most of the full set of CP primes and I’m a fan of the 50mm Macro too.  I believe they make other mounts like Nikon.  They cover full frame.

They're are a bit visually plain, but that’s a good thing too, because I find they can intercut with other lenses pretty easily without drawing attention themselves.

I use them when I want really small or lightweight builds, sometimes for self focus pulling they have a pretty nice action when you’re on your own pulling off the barrel.

For sheer flexibility, size and price they’re hard to beat.  

Most focus pullers don’t like their focus scales and find them frustrating.  

*good - a highly subjective term that from my view speaks to their utility rather the images.  I find they are sometimes a bit too sharp. 

My other suggestion that I really like but am nearly hesitant to make is the SLR Magic APO primes. I hesitate only because their set is only three lenses, 25mm, 50mm and 85mm with a 32mm due very very soon.

I’ve been using them a lot lately and I like them more and more.  They are much prettier, not as harsh as the CP’s and more flattering.  They are also small, though a bit heavier.  They’re really well made considering the price of the full set.  I’ve just had them on focus motors for the last few months and no issues at all with the daily work and grind.  

I was shooting Primos mainly and occasionally using these for really intimate hand held work where the primos are a bit large and heavy and they intercut really well for feel.  A very nice feel.  

I ended up shooting a comparison between the CPs, the Primos and SLR Magic lenses here.


My 25mm had a little bump in the close focus action which you can see in the above test but they have changed the helicoil design and addressed this.

The flares are a little unusual but I wouldn’t say they’re offensive.  They’re just kind of unique.  Focus marks are great too and the focus pullers seem to like them.

SLR Magic are also doing some interesting anamorphic scenarios which aren’t announced yet but will make these even more interesting.  They have a history of 1.3X and 2X anamorphic mods.

Owning both these lenses, I find I reach for the SLR Magic when I want flattering and pretty and the CP’s if it’s lightweight utility that’s needed.

DISCLAIMER - I have hosted Andrew from SLR Magic on my set and given them lots of unpaid feedback as a cinematographer.  I really like what he’s trying to do.

I’ve also seen great work form the Sony Cine Alta Gen 2 lenses as well, they seem to be great value.  I haven’t shot them though.

JB


John Brawley
Currently - Chicago Illinois
DP

Theo Stanley
 

In regards to the Celere’s i had heard that they were a mix of elements from different glass sources as part of their design, so not exactly the same as the rokinin or Xeen. Is this not true?

Thanks, 
Theo

Theo stanley
Dir / DP
Nyc, ny

mobile device

theo stanley / / director
theo@...
t. 212.209.7688 c. 646.330.8711

On Mar 3, 2018, at 10:28 AM, Stephen Gelb <stephengelb@...> wrote:

celere are rehoused rokinon lenses and xeen is same thing . 

for the $$ rehoused gl
optics leica r is a great option.  ur footage will look better compared to all the options u mentioned. 


On Mar 3, 2018, at 9:09 AM, Mitch Gross <mitchgrosscml@...> wrote:

On Mar 3, 2018, at 4:58 AM, Theo Stanley <theo@...> wrote:

I would be curious about people thoughts about Hanso Inno Tech’s Celere lenses

I would suggest looking into comparisons of these lenses with the Xeen primes. 


Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager 
Panasonic Media Entertainment Company
New York


Paul Curtis
 

On 3 Mar 2018, at 15:28, Stephen Gelb <stephengelb@...> wrote:
celere are rehoused rokinon lenses and xeen is same thing .
for the $$ rehoused gl
optics leica r is a great option. ur footage will look better compared to all the options u mentioned.
Can't speak whether there's truth to the celere and rokinon rumours.

But the Xeens are nice enough. Good look in a reasonable cine housing. I have a 16mm of that (as it was a *reasonable* match to SLR APO Primes). I find CA control and OOF to be pretty pleasing over all. I do believe the 16mm is different to the normal 16mm offering and certainly the coatings are different.

I find Leica Rs totally overrated having been down that path. Nothing special and they render quite differently wide open vs stopped down making them pretty useless for video (great for stills). Plus smaller focus turns and the usual issues.

Love the Leica Summicron Cines though. My win-the-lottery set of lenses.

cheers
Paul

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK

Feli di Giorgio
 


On Mar 3, 2018, at 11:03, Theo Stanley <theo@...> wrote:

In regards to the Celere’s i had heard that they were a mix of elements from different glass sources as part of their design, so not exactly the same as the rokinin or Xeen. Is this not true?

Thanks, 
Theo

Did Celere keep the octagonal bokeh in the production versions?

Thx

Feli di Giorgio

VFX / Bay Area

____________________________________________________


Michael Grippo
 

I love my Canon cine primes!! 

Michael Grippo csc
Michael Grippo Productions Inc.
c: 416 823 8020 




On Mar 3, 2018, at 3:28 PM, Paul Curtis <paul@...> wrote:

On 3 Mar 2018, at 15:28, Stephen Gelb <stephengelb@...> wrote:
celere are rehoused rokinon lenses and xeen is same thing .
for the $$ rehoused gl
optics leica r is a great option. ur footage will look better compared to all the options u mentioned.
Can't speak whether there's truth to the celere and rokinon rumours.

But the Xeens are nice enough. Good look in a reasonable cine housing. I have a 16mm of that (as it was a *reasonable* match to SLR APO Primes). I find CA control and OOF to be pretty pleasing over all. I do believe the 16mm is different to the normal 16mm offering and certainly the coatings are different.

I find Leica Rs totally overrated having been down that path. Nothing special and they render quite differently wide open vs stopped down making them pretty useless for video (great for stills). Plus smaller focus turns and the usual issues.

Love the Leica Summicron Cines though. My win-the-lottery set of lenses.

cheers
Paul

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK

Geoff Boyle
 

Ladies & Gentlemen,

 

It’s one of CML’s basic rules, a fundamental part of what makes CML work.

 

POST ONLY FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, DO NOT REPEAT RUMOURS & GOSSIP.

 

cml-chat@... is for that!

 

There have been a number of unsubstantiated statements here, one of which was modified after I called it out.

 

Stick to FACTS, not “I read it on the interweb or my mate said that he heard that…”

 

Also SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.

 

It’s not hard.

 

I’ve got a busy few weeks coming up and my tolerance will be severely reduced. I may just take my anger at airport security idiots out on people who don’t follow the rules. Don’t say you haven’t been warned.

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Zoetermeer

www.gboyle.co.uk

+31 (0) 637 155 076

 

martyna K
 

I used Samyang cine primes on many occasions, mostly on Red and FS5, FS7 etc and need to say I would compare them to Canon Cine Primes easily, for 1/10 of the price. They are also much lighter.

I have a dislike to CP2 and only use them under duress from production for very clean documentary gigs, with 1/8 BPM anyway - they have annoying tendency to milk as well with the flare, and too sharp rendering when there is non.

Perhaps worth mentioning we use a lot of NIKON ais in UK for more creative pieces, and im a big fan of my set - would love to get them rehoused one day.

I normally insist to get Zeiss super speeds Mk2 on most of my spherical commercial work - perhaps closer to Samyang's in my opinion than Zeiss CP 2s.

Best
Martyna Knitter


Martynaknitter.com
DOP



Cameron Zohoori
 

Thanks all for the input - very helpful opinions and resources as we consider our options. I'll definitely be checking out the additional suggestions.

-- 

Cameron Zohoori
Senior Producer
Vignette Creative
storyiseverything.com
Seattle, WA 
USA