Topics

How much colour control do you want in a lamp?

 

It's inevitable that a single-colour luminaire will output more than a
bi-colour at anything other than exactly midway in the colour range
(when both sets of LEDs can be fully lit). It's not a design fault or
feature, it's a fact of life. It doesn't affect the efficiency though,
you just need more LEDs if you want more output.

Alan Roberts


On 15/03/2018 20:24, zaywop@... wrote:
As an owner-operator I would like maximum output at 5600K with 95+
CRI.  Most bi-color units tend to have less output at 5600K than
similar single-color units do, so I will gladly do without bi-color to
get more output for the money.  I know of other cinematographers who
feel this way.

Keith Sikora
--
Alan Roberts - Mugswell, Surrey
+44 (0)1737832586
+44 (0)7749387934

zaywop@...
 

As an owner-operator I would like maximum output at 5600K with 95+ CRI.  Most bi-color units tend to have less output at 5600K than similar single-color units do, so I will gladly do without bi-color to get more output for the money.  I know of other cinematographers who feel this way.

This applies at all power/output levels.  That said, I think there is a significant market for maximum-output daylight LEDs that can be plugged into conventional mains power.  I would like something brighter than an 1800-watt HMI.

Regards,
Keith Sikora
Cinematographer
Los Angeles

 

For answers to this you really need to see a recent GTC presentation I
did on human vision and colorimetry - it's all there. Much of the data
for the latest stuff was derived form the IBC paper that Per Boehler,
Odd Erling Hoegberg and I did last year, It very graphically shows how
cameras work and why it's a nonsense to try to use a specific camera as
part of any metric.

My TLCI software uses an amalgam camera, derived from high-end broadcast
cameras. But it can take data from any camera measurements, and I have
many on file. The big problem is that modern single-sensor cameras tend
to be wildly different from each other, even within a single
manufacturer's range. So it makes little sense to concentrate on these
because they are still evolving wildly. When they have settled down, it
might be different, but I'm not holding my breath ...

Add into this, the range of different gamma curves in cameras, and in
displays, and you get a nightmare. The only sensible thing to do is to
stick to standards, published ones like ITU. And even then there's a lot
of sub-plots, like 709 vs 2020, plus HLG vs PQ. And so on and on and ...

Aan Roberts


On 14/03/2018 13:52, Paul Curtis wrote:
... But what i'd like to understand is how different are sensor
responses in seeing coloured light? I'd kind of be more interested in
seeing the range of results from the same light across different sensors.

The question is how you'd physically go about creating a sensor
'profile' to plug into the TCLI system?
--
Alan Roberts - Mugswell, Surrey
+44 (0)1737832586
+44 (0)7749387934

Paul Curtis
 

On 14 Mar 2018, at 05:53, Mark Weingartner, ASC <vfxmark@...> wrote:
Well, yes and no… You see camera manufacturers need targets to aim at, and despite the “Standards are great, that’s why there are so many of them” the fact remains that
camera manufacturers have to tune their color processing to something… so we have tungsten standard… and we have a daylight standard(ish) and those of us in the business of making images need standard illuminants by which we can judge the performance of cameras…

First, thanks Alan for the response, i'll drop you a line directly.

Second, thanks to Jonathan for pitching in, i was hoping you would see this. Personally i'm in total agreement with you.

We had this conversation about ratings and light standards before and the dangers of breaking something down to a simple number. I know we all love to categorise things, although not as much as marketing departments love to.

What was interesting about the TCLI (as i understand...) is that is was a software approach to modelling the response based on a spectral analysis of a light and a modelled response of an average sensor. I felt that perhaps modelling based on a sensor wasn't the best idea because i do think sensors can vary widely and why include an arbitrary response. What strikes me as an immutable reality is the spectral output of a light-source. But then that got me thinking that you do need to quantify the match between light and sensor response, and hence the sensor part does actually make sense. But is that by itself enough?

But what i'd like to understand is how different are sensor responses in seeing coloured light? I'd kind of be more interested in seeing the range of results from the same light across different sensors.

The question is how you'd physically go about creating a sensor 'profile' to plug into the TCLI system?

Just thinking that one of the anomalies with RGBW might be how well a particular spectral output matches the responses of a particular sensor.

cheers
Paul

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK

Mark Weingartner, ASC
 


On 13Mar, 2018, at 13:52 54, Jonathan Miller <jonedwardmiller@...> wrote:

Forget the wide variety of numbers, letters and hyphenates we use to describe light sources, they are almost all marketing schemes from technologies and industries that have moved on.  3200K and 5600K are anachronisms of Kodak film stocks, green and magenta are camera filters you no longer use since the advent of DSLRs.  They no longer accurately describe the majority of modern light sources nor camera sensitivities. 

Well, yes and no…   You see camera manufacturers need targets to aim at, and despite the “Standards are great, that’s why there are so many of them”  the fact remains that 
camera manufacturers have to tune their color processing to something…    so  we have tungsten standard… and we have a daylight standard(ish) and those of us in the business of making images need standard illuminants by which we can judge the performance of cameras…

…so while I get where you are coming from and don’t entirely disagree with you, we DO need some standard targets to hit.

You know, some of us still make images under tungsten halogen studio lights, and many of us make images under daylight…   both of those situations notable for their continuous and smooth(ish) power distribution curves.


This world of discontinuous spectra is nothing new… I exposed a hell of a lot of film lit by fluorescent tubes of various types in fixtures of various types - figuring out how to best emulate the illuminants that the film stocks were designed for  (or the video camera color processing was calibrated for)  was just as much fun in the eighties as it is now in our new renaissance of spiky spectra:-)


CRI ratings were always perceptual (human vision system)  and people using CRI as a predictor of performance of spiky sources with any system recording three primaries were never quite right in the head.


Lastly - people have all sorts of belief systems and all sorts of procedures for getting the image they want…  some of them are based on a misunderstanding of the underlying phenomena… but if people are getting the images to look the way they want anyway - that’s a non-trivial fact…

This kind of falls under “it works in practice, but will it work in theory?”         I learned experientially what subtractive filtration worked with  lots of different fluorescent lamps with different film stocks and analog video cameras…    My tri-color meter lied to me somewhat but I could nevertheless learn my offsets and generally end up with images that looked the way they were supposed to.


So notwithstanding our way of talking about magenta/green is anachronistic, if our archaic and inaccurate discussions result in the image looking the way we want it to, such imperfect, flawed communication still serves a purpose.

We still say “rolling” when, in fact, on most cameras, when you hit the record button the only rotating device in the camera (the cooling fan) actually STOPS


Cheers,
Mark

Mark Weingartner, ASC
DP, VFX Supervisor, etc
Los Angeles based

Cigarettes make the sun come up
Whiskey makes the sun go down
And in between
We do a lot of standing around


Jonathan Miller
 

Okay time to wade in here...

So I would like to just try and blow up this entire conversation for a second.  There is no such thing as white light.  There is only limited spectrum and full spectrum light sources, they are all colored.  Secondly there is no longer any reason to use any single color temperature as the measurement point for valuing a light's performance, that was tied to limited white light photographic sensitivity for accurate color reproduction... color film stocks.  Which is my way of saying you are all asking the wrong questions.

You should be asking for two things and two things only: spectrum and control.  Forget the wide variety of numbers, letters and hyphenates we use to describe light sources, they are almost all marketing schemes from technologies and industries that have moved on.  3200K and 5600K are anachronisms of Kodak film stocks, green and magenta are camera filters you no longer use since the advent of DSLRs.  They no longer accurately describe the majority of modern light sources nor camera sensitivities.  "Daylight" color temp is a product of altitude, latitude, atmosphere and time of day.  Moonlight on camera is an attempt to represent the relative experience of the human eye under low light conditions at night based on scotopic vision or how the rods in our eyes are more sensitive to certain wavelengths , and has no relationship to any scientific measurement of the spectral properties of daylight reflected off a giant dirt bounce card in the sky. 

Which brings me back again to spectrum and control.  As a photographer for motion or stills you want the light source with the greatest overall portion of the visible spectrum produced and with the ability to control aka limit that spectrum as needed for your emotional, aesthetic or technical goals.  For a very long time the best way to do this was to take a incandescent light source, and have a large library of color gels.  I have a shocking surprise for you.  If you have ever lit something well using a gelled tungsten light, you have effectively lit for camera with a very low CRI source.  For that matter there are plenty of bad RGB lights, bad bi-color lights, you can use garbage phosphors and you can have ugly but high CRI lights, etc. etc.  If you buy a light because it renders colors at 3200K perfectly and use it in space with an average ambient color temp of 4500K for a camera with a sensor with a native sensitivity of 6500K, did that test matter and benefit you at all? 

Spectrum and control, spectrum and control, spectrum and control after that economics and physics will always apply, its the manufactures job to give you as much of this as possible, and try to make a viable product by considering $ and size, but the rest of the number and letter soup is mostly noise. 

Now get of my lighting lawn... 


Grumpy as ever

Jon Edward Miller
Chief Product Officer / Founder
Los Angeles, CA USA

John Rossetti
 

I wouldn’t mind either

 

John.rossetti@...

+44 7836 298 881

 

waynemansell1
 

David, this is if great interest to me. I would love to join one of these sessions. I'll email you directly for details if that is ok?

Wayne Mansell
www.lightinggaffer.co.uk




Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------
From: David Morphy <d.morphy@...>
Date: 13/03/2018 10:12 (GMT+00:00)
To: cml-lighting@...
Subject: Re: [lighting] How much colour control do you want in a lamp?

Paul

 

Interesting post – TLCI is generally a robust testing system, however it is date and fixture specific. Also each particular camera will be to some degree like a different film stock, however the differences although important are within a range – also if they are batched LEDs, fixture to fixture lights of the same family may be different – similar to changing an HMI bulb in any HMI head.  I think looking at test dates from 2015 will be well out of date at this point and LEDs have generally improved quite a lot over three years.

 

There are some major changes in understanding colour using sloid state lighting – what we needed to know a few years ago vs what we need to understand now has changed, not massively complicated but different!  We are currently running sessions on colour science for DPs and Technicians at Cirro Lite in London (something we started for the NFTS), this is an educational session that explains the practical knowledge needed in the current world of lighting for camera. All interested parties are welcome to get in touch if they want to join in.

 

Regards

 

David Morphy

 

I have a vested interest in lighting as the technical director at Cirro Lite

 

 

 

 

 

From: cml-lighting@... <cml-lighting@...> On Behalf Of Paul Curtis
Sent: 13 March 2018 09:00
To: cml-lighting@...
Subject: Re: [lighting] How much colour control do you want in a lamp?

 

On 1 Mar 2018, at 17:59, alan836975 via Cml.News <roberts.mugswell=btinternet.com@...> wrote:
Several, they're all reported on in the GTC and EBU lstings.

Alan (and anyone else listening),

I appreciate that you have probably forgotten more about this subject then i would ever know. But because i'm curious...

Working backwards. The 3200K Rating for the DS3 is 29. An Aladdin biflex light is 99. Area48 at 99 too.

I have all these lights (DS1 not DS3 but i understand they're the same module) and it would seem that the DS1 would look utterly unacceptably awful by comparison and it doesn't. At all. TCLI says it's not broadcast standard.

I actually tried this out and happy to pop up a comparison image and link to it if people are interested. On skin looks great, the macbeth looks pretty close, nothing i'd worry about and nothing like the Macbeth sample in the TCLI scores. Also the TCLI graph doesn't appear to show influence from the W from RGBW?

So to me this could mean there's something up here. Because when something scores so badly (not just a little) it should be awful, right? I mean i hate the early LEDs with a passion (green dead skin and the usual complaints), these are what i'd expect to score 29.

So why such a low score, which actually does the whole thing an disservice. Was there a testing issue? Suddenly based on my experience i have to take these scores with massive pinch of salt as with RGBW lights they don't relate to my real world use.

Is it that the tuning of a RGBW light has to be so spot on in order to score high? I read some details from hive on another board that was explaining some of the issues with those colour light meters. I wonder if that's connected?

Is it that the theoretical sensor in the TCLI approach isn't mimicking my sensor (Red Epic W)? Maybe the primaries of the DS1 just happen to match those of the Red perfectly so i'm not missing anything (doubt it)

I'd be curious to compare to the Hive C100 but i don't think that's been tested in this way (at least not in that batch of results i found)

RGBW lights allow for shades of white, the real world is bounced light, shades of white. It's such a nice way of doing things, to move away from just 'white'.

I am current using one of the new Voyager lights (83 pixels in a tube). To me this represents a future of lighting. In a single tube i can light a face with different colours from one side to the other. It's wonderful. I can create grads and virtually paint on these lights. I can't think of another recent lighting innovation which has opened up so much choice. And to my eye the light quality is fantastic, but i bet they score low on the tests too...

Curious for any thoughts, i don't mean to be combative, i have no shares in any of these companies but i do think that when you score a light it ought to have some real world meaning and this particular case (could be an edge case) doesn't make sense.

cheers
Paul

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK

 

Hi David, if you want me to join in, just ask ...

A

On 13/03/2018 10:12, David Morphy wrote:

Paul

 

Interesting post – TLCI is generally a robust testing system, however it is date and fixture specific. Also each particular camera will be to some degree like a different film stock, however the differences although important are within a range – also if they are batched LEDs, fixture to fixture lights of the same family may be different – similar to changing an HMI bulb in any HMI head.  I think looking at test dates from 2015 will be well out of date at this point and LEDs have generally improved quite a lot over three years.

 

There are some major changes in understanding colour using sloid state lighting – what we needed to know a few years ago vs what we need to understand now has changed, not massively complicated but different!  We are currently running sessions on colour science for DPs and Technicians at Cirro Lite in London (something we started for the NFTS), this is an educational session that explains the practical knowledge needed in the current world of lighting for camera. All interested parties are welcome to get in touch if they want to join in.

 

Regards

 

David Morphy

 

I have a vested interest in lighting as the technical director at Cirro Lite

 

 

 

 

 

From: cml-lighting@... <cml-lighting@...> On Behalf Of Paul Curtis
Sent: 13 March 2018 09:00
To: cml-lighting@...
Subject: Re: [lighting] How much colour control do you want in a lamp?

 

On 1 Mar 2018, at 17:59, alan836975 via Cml.News <roberts.mugswell=btinternet.com@...> wrote:
Several, they're all reported on in the GTC and EBU lstings.

Alan (and anyone else listening),

I appreciate that you have probably forgotten more about this subject then i would ever know. But because i'm curious...

Working backwards. The 3200K Rating for the DS3 is 29. An Aladdin biflex light is 99. Area48 at 99 too.

I have all these lights (DS1 not DS3 but i understand they're the same module) and it would seem that the DS1 would look utterly unacceptably awful by comparison and it doesn't. At all. TCLI says it's not broadcast standard.

I actually tried this out and happy to pop up a comparison image and link to it if people are interested. On skin looks great, the macbeth looks pretty close, nothing i'd worry about and nothing like the Macbeth sample in the TCLI scores. Also the TCLI graph doesn't appear to show influence from the W from RGBW?

So to me this could mean there's something up here. Because when something scores so badly (not just a little) it should be awful, right? I mean i hate the early LEDs with a passion (green dead skin and the usual complaints), these are what i'd expect to score 29.

So why such a low score, which actually does the whole thing an disservice. Was there a testing issue? Suddenly based on my experience i have to take these scores with massive pinch of salt as with RGBW lights they don't relate to my real world use.

Is it that the tuning of a RGBW light has to be so spot on in order to score high? I read some details from hive on another board that was explaining some of the issues with those colour light meters. I wonder if that's connected?

Is it that the theoretical sensor in the TCLI approach isn't mimicking my sensor (Red Epic W)? Maybe the primaries of the DS1 just happen to match those of the Red perfectly so i'm not missing anything (doubt it)

I'd be curious to compare to the Hive C100 but i don't think that's been tested in this way (at least not in that batch of results i found)

RGBW lights allow for shades of white, the real world is bounced light, shades of white. It's such a nice way of doing things, to move away from just 'white'.

I am current using one of the new Voyager lights (83 pixels in a tube). To me this represents a future of lighting. In a single tube i can light a face with different colours from one side to the other. It's wonderful. I can create grads and virtually paint on these lights. I can't think of another recent lighting innovation which has opened up so much choice. And to my eye the light quality is fantastic, but i bet they score low on the tests too...

Curious for any thoughts, i don't mean to be combative, i have no shares in any of these companies but i do think that when you score a light it ought to have some real world meaning and this particular case (could be an edge case) doesn't make sense.

cheers
Paul

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK


-- 
Alan Roberts - Mugswell, Surrey
+44 (0)1737832586
+44 (0)7749387934

David Morphy
 

Paul

 

Interesting post – TLCI is generally a robust testing system, however it is date and fixture specific. Also each particular camera will be to some degree like a different film stock, however the differences although important are within a range – also if they are batched LEDs, fixture to fixture lights of the same family may be different – similar to changing an HMI bulb in any HMI head.  I think looking at test dates from 2015 will be well out of date at this point and LEDs have generally improved quite a lot over three years.

 

There are some major changes in understanding colour using sloid state lighting – what we needed to know a few years ago vs what we need to understand now has changed, not massively complicated but different!  We are currently running sessions on colour science for DPs and Technicians at Cirro Lite in London (something we started for the NFTS), this is an educational session that explains the practical knowledge needed in the current world of lighting for camera. All interested parties are welcome to get in touch if they want to join in.

 

Regards

 

David Morphy

 

I have a vested interest in lighting as the technical director at Cirro Lite

 

 

 

 

 

From: cml-lighting@... <cml-lighting@...> On Behalf Of Paul Curtis
Sent: 13 March 2018 09:00
To: cml-lighting@...
Subject: Re: [lighting] How much colour control do you want in a lamp?

 

On 1 Mar 2018, at 17:59, alan836975 via Cml.News <roberts.mugswell=btinternet.com@...> wrote:
Several, they're all reported on in the GTC and EBU lstings.

Alan (and anyone else listening),

I appreciate that you have probably forgotten more about this subject then i would ever know. But because i'm curious...

Working backwards. The 3200K Rating for the DS3 is 29. An Aladdin biflex light is 99. Area48 at 99 too.

I have all these lights (DS1 not DS3 but i understand they're the same module) and it would seem that the DS1 would look utterly unacceptably awful by comparison and it doesn't. At all. TCLI says it's not broadcast standard.

I actually tried this out and happy to pop up a comparison image and link to it if people are interested. On skin looks great, the macbeth looks pretty close, nothing i'd worry about and nothing like the Macbeth sample in the TCLI scores. Also the TCLI graph doesn't appear to show influence from the W from RGBW?

So to me this could mean there's something up here. Because when something scores so badly (not just a little) it should be awful, right? I mean i hate the early LEDs with a passion (green dead skin and the usual complaints), these are what i'd expect to score 29.

So why such a low score, which actually does the whole thing an disservice. Was there a testing issue? Suddenly based on my experience i have to take these scores with massive pinch of salt as with RGBW lights they don't relate to my real world use.

Is it that the tuning of a RGBW light has to be so spot on in order to score high? I read some details from hive on another board that was explaining some of the issues with those colour light meters. I wonder if that's connected?

Is it that the theoretical sensor in the TCLI approach isn't mimicking my sensor (Red Epic W)? Maybe the primaries of the DS1 just happen to match those of the Red perfectly so i'm not missing anything (doubt it)

I'd be curious to compare to the Hive C100 but i don't think that's been tested in this way (at least not in that batch of results i found)

RGBW lights allow for shades of white, the real world is bounced light, shades of white. It's such a nice way of doing things, to move away from just 'white'.

I am current using one of the new Voyager lights (83 pixels in a tube). To me this represents a future of lighting. In a single tube i can light a face with different colours from one side to the other. It's wonderful. I can create grads and virtually paint on these lights. I can't think of another recent lighting innovation which has opened up so much choice. And to my eye the light quality is fantastic, but i bet they score low on the tests too...

Curious for any thoughts, i don't mean to be combative, i have no shares in any of these companies but i do think that when you score a light it ought to have some real world meaning and this particular case (could be an edge case) doesn't make sense.

cheers
Paul

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK

 

I tested the DS3 in Amsterdam right at the end of a meeting where
various luminaires had been used to see how well they worked (not by
me). Nobody liked it. Right at the end, I had a chance to measure about
8 luminares in the few minutes during strip-down of the event. One of
the Dutch DoPs set each lamp up and I flitted round getting
measurements. So, I measured what they wanted me to measure. It was a
far-from-perfect arrangement, and I simply didn't have time or
opportunity to explore the luminaires properly. I'd never heard of the
DS range, so had no idea what it could do, and the DoP had used it only
in RGB mode, so ...

When I do things properly,  I have the luminaires at home for a day -
and spend time exploring all the controls and options before deciding
what to measure. That way, I get to understand what the unit does and
how it does it. And you get the best results I can get.

I don't like RGB lamps, they are generally not good for illumination,
only for colouring. Add in the W and things change, but controllability
becomes the problem because now we have several different ways to get to
the same CCT, but with wildly differing colour performance. It's nothing
to do with the cameras or the maths, it's simply down to having too many
things to control.

Interestingly, nobody from Digital Sputnik has commented on this. I'd be
happy to remeasure if they want me to. The thing that worries me about
it is that the controls allowed me a colour mixture that clearly
performed very badly, and that's something that any DoP is going to be
able to do.

By the way, I've knocked up a prototype luminaire from 11 LEDs of
differing spectral content (all narrow band) which scores in the high
90s. It's very difficult to drive because you have to control the levels
of all 11 differentially to set up anything, but it proves that it can
be done. This doesn't exist in hardware yet, only in simulation, but it
wouldn't take long to build the lab version.

If you want to chase this up, I'd be happy to talk directly, I'm not all
that far away (the top of Reigate hill).

A


On 13/03/2018 09:00, Paul Curtis wrote:

I have all these lights (DS1 not DS3 but i understand they're the same
module) and it would seem that the DS1 would look utterly unacceptably
awful by comparison and it doesn't. At all. TCLI says it's not
broadcast standard.
 ...
--
Alan Roberts - Mugswell, Surrey
+44 (0)1737832586
+44 (0)7749387934

Paul Curtis
 

On 1 Mar 2018, at 17:59, alan836975 via Cml.News <roberts.mugswell=btinternet.com@...> wrote:
Several, they're all reported on in the GTC and EBU lstings.
Alan (and anyone else listening),

I appreciate that you have probably forgotten more about this subject then i would ever know. But because i'm curious...

Working backwards. The 3200K Rating for the DS3 is 29. An Aladdin biflex light is 99. Area48 at 99 too.

I have all these lights (DS1 not DS3 but i understand they're the same module) and it would seem that the DS1 would look utterly unacceptably awful by comparison and it doesn't. At all. TCLI says it's not broadcast standard.

I actually tried this out and happy to pop up a comparison image and link to it if people are interested. On skin looks great, the macbeth looks pretty close, nothing i'd worry about and nothing like the Macbeth sample in the TCLI scores. Also the TCLI graph doesn't appear to show influence from the W from RGBW?

So to me this could mean there's something up here. Because when something scores so badly (not just a little) it should be awful, right? I mean i hate the early LEDs with a passion (green dead skin and the usual complaints), these are what i'd expect to score 29.

So why such a low score, which actually does the whole thing an disservice. Was there a testing issue? Suddenly based on my experience i have to take these scores with massive pinch of salt as with RGBW lights they don't relate to my real world use.

Is it that the tuning of a RGBW light has to be so spot on in order to score high? I read some details from hive on another board that was explaining some of the issues with those colour light meters. I wonder if that's connected?

Is it that the theoretical sensor in the TCLI approach isn't mimicking my sensor (Red Epic W)? Maybe the primaries of the DS1 just happen to match those of the Red perfectly so i'm not missing anything (doubt it)

I'd be curious to compare to the Hive C100 but i don't think that's been tested in this way (at least not in that batch of results i found)

RGBW lights allow for shades of white, the real world is bounced light, shades of white. It's such a nice way of doing things, to move away from just 'white'.

I am current using one of the new Voyager lights (83 pixels in a tube). To me this represents a future of lighting. In a single tube i can light a face with different colours from one side to the other. It's wonderful. I can create grads and virtually paint on these lights. I can't think of another recent lighting innovation which has opened up so much choice. And to my eye the light quality is fantastic, but i bet they score low on the tests too...

Curious for any thoughts, i don't mean to be combative, i have no shares in any of these companies but i do think that when you score a light it ought to have some real world meaning and this particular case (could be an edge case) doesn't make sense.

cheers
Paul

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK

 

I just tried Google, just entering 'TLCI', and it's all there.

The EBU site is up to date :    https://tech.ebu.ch/tlci-2012
The GTC site is rather out of date, still waiting for them to get their
act together over the new format :
http://www.gtc.org.uk/members-area/tlci-results.aspx

Alan Roberts


On 02/03/2018 09:20, Paul Curtis wrote:
Tried googling but didn't come up with anything, can you point me in
the right general direction?!
--
Alan Roberts - Mugswell, Surrey
+44 (0)1737832586
+44 (0)7749387934

Geoff Boyle
 

http://www.gtc.org.uk/members-area/tlci-results.aspx

 

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Zoetermeer

www.gboyle.co.uk

+31 (0) 637 155 076

 

From: cml-lighting@... <cml-lighting@...> On Behalf Of Paul Curtis
Sent: Friday, 2 March 2018 10:20
To: cml-lighting@...
Subject: Re: [lighting] How much colour control do you want in a lamp?

 

On 1 Mar 2018, at 17:59, alan836975 via Cml.News <roberts.mugswell=btinternet.com@...> wrote:
Several, they're all reported on in the GTC and EBU lstings.

Tried googling but didn't come up with anything, can you point me in the right general direction?!

thanks!
Paul

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK

Paul Curtis
 

On 1 Mar 2018, at 17:59, alan836975 via Cml.News <roberts.mugswell=btinternet.com@...> wrote:
Several, they're all reported on in the GTC and EBU lstings.
Tried googling but didn't come up with anything, can you point me in the right general direction?!

thanks!
Paul

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK

Adam Wilt
 

I tend to feel that bi-colour plus a G/M axis shift is all I really need.

That works for me. I’m working with a range of, erm, how to put it… “affordable” (a.k.a. cheap) bi-colour LED luminaires. They intermix “yellow” wideband phosphor LEDs and “blue” wideband phosphor LEDS, and let me dial in any colour temperature I want. And they have great CRI / CQS / TLCI metrics.

What they also have—but, for some inexplicable reason, the marketing copy neglects to mention, grin—are varying green/magenta tints, depending on the mix ratio and dimming settings. The luminaires that run from a nominal 3200 K to a nominal 5600 K are fairly tolerable if slightly pinkish unless you set them to 5600 K, whereupon they go unmistakably green. The 2300 K to 6800 K luminaires start off neutral, go very magenta at mid-temperature settings, then glow martian green at the highest settings.  So even if I’m freed from relamping or gelling warm/cool to match ambient, I still have to gel to fix tint, and the added gels do little to improve colour quality, setup times, or my peace of mind.

(Are more expensive bi-colour luminaires subject to similar G/M tint shifts? If not, how are the manufacturers getting around the white-point changes that occur when phosphor-based LEDS are dimmed?)

I love multicolour RGB+ fixtures, too, but as effects and mood-setting luminaires, not as everyday utility lighting instruments. And I can easily rent fully DMXable RGB “PARs” and spots, cheap, from event and party rental places when I need ‘em. But the bread-and-butter light I really need is a tungsten-to-daylight replacement, with a G/M control to at least neutralize tint. If there’s enough range to let me match existing green / magenta fluoros on location, I wouldn’t complain, but I’d be happy with just enough control to take the tint out of my lights.

Adam Wilt
technical services: consulting / coding / camerawork
Vancouver WA USA (no, not that Vancouver, the other one)

Steve Oakley
 

Hi Mark


comparison with 500W T bulb vs 150W VisionSmith in both original light config and their suggested mods - remove reflector and change lens. 

some additional notes :

 the pins on my original LED bulb came loose from constant travel. VS replaced the bulb under warranty with new version that has better design. I should go check and see how its doing.

I also had a bulb fry due to heat. While they don’t run that hot, they still need cooling. I pried 2 of the heat vents in the light open a bit more and installed a 12V 80mm fan into the back of the fixture. I used a 5V wall wart to power the fan and mounted it inside the case. The lower votlage keeps the fan very quite and this has worked well. So I don’t know how these would play out in a arri 650 housing. might need to drill a few holes to improve air flow, or use a 1K instead.

Steve Oakley
DP / Editor / Colorist / VFX artist
Madison & Milwaukee


On Mar 1, 2018, at 3:34 AM, mark@... wrote:

Steve,
I was going to post and ask about the vision smith lamps. How do you feel about the larger wattage ones? I’d like to see or hear how they work in the arri 650 fresnels. How is the color reproduction and power in that 150w?
Mark Gambol
Camera
MG Pictures, ltd.
Philadelphia
mgambol@...

On Mar 1, 2018, at 2:21 AM, Steve Oakley <steveo@...> wrote:


I have a 150W vision smith led in a old 1K desisti I like. dims on AC dimmer. you really want to replace the glass lens with a plastic one, remove the shield wire and that adds an extra 2/3’s of a stop of light. its an interesting option to retrofit old lights. 3200 or 5600

 

Several, they're all reported on in the GTC and EBU lstings.

Alan Roberts

On 01/03/2018 12:13, Paul Curtis wrote:
On 1 Mar 2018, at 08:56, alan836975 via Cml.News <roberts.mugswell=btinternet.com@...> wrote:
RGB etc is an effects lamp unless the R G and B are broad-spectrum: none of those I've measured score at all well when used to produce white.

What have you measured?
-- 
Alan Roberts - Mugswell, Surrey
+44 (0)1737832586
+44 (0)7749387934

welch.k@...
 

Hi John,

 

Thank you for the reply. I am looking for a studio to lease in near subway stations. Will update CML when I get situated and have things ready to roll.

 

Kim

 

Chelsea Manhattan

Working with headphones on listening to 60’s Music

 

Mr. Kim Edward Welch
Cell: (917) 743.8381
Publisher/Editor in Chief
www.studentfilmmakers.com
www.hdproguide.com

 

 

_._,_._,_

Fred Young
 

I think the consensus would be bi-color is the base level people have come to expect from their LED lights. Plus/ minus green is nice, but in my experience not called for all that often. If the light engine behind the bi-color is RGBW then access to the individual colors is great. However all of that is really where the industry is at the moment. It’s what I’d expect from any LED light coming to market that’s primarily for film/ video. In my brain it’s what we wanted 10 years ago. 

Where I’d like to be in 10 years is filling out the color spectrum. Lights that have everything mentioned plus cyan, yellow and magenta, to start. When it comes to rendering saturate primaries we are all set with RGBW lights, but trying to light with saturated “secondary “ colors is a challenge especially by camera.  When compared side-by-side with something like a florescent gel'ed with Lee 101 (primary Yellow) the DIT shows the RGBW fixture that the LED color is dim and feels very thin/ pale, while the gel unit is full full of color and bright.  i’m talking about a mainstream “industry standard “ light, not a know off prosumer.  By eye I couldn't tell the difference between the two.

That and much brighter, hopefully phasing  out the 18ks and 20ks fully.

I won’t get into get into control (wireless/ bluetooth/ whatever) .  My opinions are probably going to be in a minority. 


Fred Young
Camera & Lighting for Motion Pictures
Boston, MA


On Mar 1, 2018, at 07:13, Paul Curtis <paul@...> wrote:



On 1 Mar 2018, at 08:56, alan836975 via Cml.News <roberts.mugswell=btinternet.com@...> wrote:
RGB etc is an effects lamp unless the R G and B are broad-spectrum: none of those I've measured score at all well when used to produce white.

What have you measured?

I think that ebay cheap RGB disco lights are effects lamps, but there are others.

DS1s are RGBW combinations and Hive did a lot of work on colour combinations too (But i'm sure they'll jump in here with more details)

I can only really go by my eye and these tests are all a bit odd at times. For example the best rendition i've felt is is Remote Phosphor but that doesn't always 'score' so well. And i've had no issues that i've 'felt' with these lights...

cheers
Paul

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK

Jeff Galyan <jeff@...>
 

I do a lot of genre work, so full RGB control is very appealing to me - I’d love to just tap a swatch or swipe a slider in an app and BAM! I’ve got exactly the color I want.  The Digital Sputnik “light grading” idea is interesting, but I haven’t played with it yet. 

I expect most users would just need T/D switching like the LiteGear products can do.  Other than the color control, I want pretty much what everyone else wants - no strange color casts that have to be corrected out, no color shift when dimming, matches tungsten or daylight fixtures do it can be mixed with more traditional lighting units, etc.

One thing I’ve only seen Mole-Richardson doing is describing their LED units in terms that tell you which traditional units their light output is equivalent to.  I’d love for the folks making the really compact units to do the same so it’s easier to choose units for a shoot.

Jeff Galyan
Director of Photography | Los Angeles / Worldwide

On Feb 28, 2018, at 10:37 PM, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:

Talking to a manufacturer who is looking for input…
Bi-color is the rage, magenta/green & RGB is the talk BUT what do gaffers & DP’s really want?

Now OK, in an ideal world I want DMX control of RGB but in a real world, bearing in mind speed of operation and cost, I tend to feel that bi-colour plus a G/M axis shift is all I really need. In fact it’s simple and easily controllable.

 

What do you want? Bear in mind weight, speed of use and cost 😊

 


Art Adams
 

I think we need RGB/WW/CW (red, green, blue, warm white, cool white). The multi-color fixtures that incorporate a white usually only incorporate a cool white phosphor, which might provide enough red to make decent skin tones at 5500K—maybe—but certainly won't do this at 3200K. At that point they introduce a bunch of narrow band red to create a metameric white instead of a true broad spectrum white, which generally makes red blemishes pop, misses other warm hues present in flesh tone, and just looks wrong.

To make skin look decent under tungsten light, you need a warm white phosphor. And, I'd argue, you need the same for daylight, as cool white phosphors don't quite do the trick either and could use a little broad spectrum warmth mixed in.

RGB lights will never deliver decent skin tone or color reproduction. They can't, because the way you create colors is by excluding all the wavelengths that aren't that color. That means you can create wonderfully saturated hues—thousands or millions of them—but you will never be able to make them look decent as white light illuminating complex colors (such as flesh tone).

The point made above—that green/magenta adjustments require that the phosphors be made in a deficient manner—makes complete sense. It may be possible to cheat this with RGB LEDs (increasing green for plus green, increasing RB for minus green) but as you're trimming with narrow band LEDs I think you're going to run into problems with extreme adjustments. The question that needs to be answered is how far you can push that before seeing weird artifacts and metameric failure.

Having said, that I think that warm/cool and plus/minus green are mandatory these days, if for no other reason than that no brands will produce the same color white light at the same CCT settings. I recently had to shoot a neutral gray product on a white background using all LED lighting. The first ten minutes of the day was spent white balancing the camera to one light and then white balancing the lights themselves to match that first reference light.

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area

John Rossetti
 

Hi Kim.

Then I think there are two answers to some of your questions

 

Q1) One of the issues we have had is with the constantly changing equipment.

A1) Generally Students want to learn “how to light” what kind of light does what AND WHY and about the large Lighting Grip inventory to modify / adapt and adopt their own styles.

I tend to do this with conventional lighting because older lighting tends to be single use, cheap, obvious, and easy in their uses.

 

A2) More experienced crew seem to want to learn about the uses and designs of the newer technology but are afraid to ask ! So here you have to keep up with all the latest trends, that’s expensive unless you can do a deal with a local sales or rental house to use their equipment in return for the publicity.

 

Q2) While Peter teaches us great technique we mostly have used the old lights.

A9) I think that’s right, a lot of modern stuff tends to try to be all things to all people and thus not very good at anything, if its techniques your trying to teach then the older the better.

 

Q3) What do you think the most used and best lighting equipment should be used to do our classes

A) see above ! I’m “amused” by the “rush” to new technology and pleased to see at  Pinewood at least it’s a crawl only. I can see power consumption being the main driver to the new technology but cost, efficiency and reliability it is not.

 

John Rossetti in an Igloo in London

 

 

Paul Mcilvaine
 

95% of the time bi-color, G/M and dimming is all that I use. But if you want to compete in today’s world you also need WiFi and RGBW. Built in lighting effects are a real time savor. Plus Battery operation.
I can put up with weight as long as the unit is built solid and can travel well.  
Two items that are getting overlooked are light quality and clean white light.


Sent by
Paul McIlvaine
LA/gaffer

On Feb 28, 2018, at 10:43 PM, Sean Emer <seanemer@...> wrote:

Switchable from bicolor w/ GM to full RGB w/ wireless control via mobile app or DMX with gel reproduction presets etc. is the best. New gear shouldn't follow what people would settle for, it should be pioneering the next generation of tech, otherwise the shelf life is hard limited.  Sets run faster and more efficient wm full wireless rgb units. It's only a matter of time before it becomes the standard. 

It costs a bunch now, yeah, but the more we use it the cheaper it'll get. I see people renting s60s in LA for under 100 these days, free market at work I guess! 

Sean Emer
DP Los Angeles 

On Wed, Feb 28, 2018, 22:37 Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:

Talking to a manufacturer who is looking for input…
Bi-color is the rage, magenta/green & RGB is the talk BUT what do gaffers & DP’s really want?

Now OK, in an ideal world I want DMX control of RGB but in a real world, bearing in mind speed of operation and cost, I tend to feel that bi-colour plus a G/M axis shift is all I really need. In fact it’s simple and easily controllable.

 

What do you want? Bear in mind weight, speed of use and cost 😊

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Zoetermeer

www.gboyle.co.uk

+31 (0) 637 155 076

 

welch.k@...
 

We get a broad mix of men and women of all ages from students in highschool to professionals depending on the focus. Mostly College University but can be all levels. Peter attracts people who have worked with him before and when we get Hollywood professionals like Roy Wagner we attract a lot of working cinematographers in NYC.

 

 

Mr. Kim Edward Welch
Cell: (917) 743.8381
Publisher/Editor in Chief
www.studentfilmmakers.com
www.hdproguide.com

 

 

 

From: cml-lighting@... [mailto:cml-lighting@...] On Behalf Of John Rossetti via Cml.News
Sent: Thursday, March 1, 2018 8:14 AM
To: cml-lighting@...
Subject: Re: [lighting] How much colour control do you want in a lamp?

 

Hi Kim

 

Who and what are you trying to teach ?

 

John Rossetti – in snow in London

 

John Rossetti
 

Hi Kim

 

Who and what are you trying to teach ?

 

John Rossetti – in snow in London

 

welch.k@...
 

Greetings CML Filmmakers,

 

Good morning and I hope everyone is off to a great day! I think this might be my first comment here but since we are looking for workshops space and have done a number of lighting series workshops with Peter Stein ASC and individual one day workshops with other ASC members I thought would reach out. One of the issues we have had is with the constantly changing equipment. While Peter teaches us great technique we mostly have used the old lights from when he was actively shooting some years ago. What do you think the most used and best lighting equipment should be used to do our classes. I am sure we can tweak with Peter or maybe there are Cinematographers here that are in NYC that would be interested in teaching newcomers.

 

Truly

Kim

 

 

Mr. Kim Edward Welch
Cell: (917) 743.8381
Publisher/Editor in Chief
www.studentfilmmakers.com
www.hdproguide.com

 

 

 

From: cml-lighting@... [mailto:cml-lighting@...] On Behalf Of Paul Curtis
Sent: Thursday, March 1, 2018 7:13 AM
To: cml-lighting@...
Subject: Re: [lighting] How much colour control do you want in a lamp?

 

 



On 1 Mar 2018, at 08:56, alan836975 via Cml.News <roberts.mugswell=btinternet.com@...> wrote:

RGB etc is an effects lamp unless the R G and B are broad-spectrum: none of those I've measured score at all well when used to produce white.

 

What have you measured?

 

I think that ebay cheap RGB disco lights are effects lamps, but there are others.

 

DS1s are RGBW combinations and Hive did a lot of work on colour combinations too (But i'm sure they'll jump in here with more details)

 

I can only really go by my eye and these tests are all a bit odd at times. For example the best rendition i've felt is is Remote Phosphor but that doesn't always 'score' so well. And i've had no issues that i've 'felt' with these lights...

 

cheers

Paul

 

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK

Paul Curtis
 



On 1 Mar 2018, at 08:56, alan836975 via Cml.News <roberts.mugswell=btinternet.com@...> wrote:
RGB etc is an effects lamp unless the R G and B are broad-spectrum: none of those I've measured score at all well when used to produce white.

What have you measured?

I think that ebay cheap RGB disco lights are effects lamps, but there are others.

DS1s are RGBW combinations and Hive did a lot of work on colour combinations too (But i'm sure they'll jump in here with more details)

I can only really go by my eye and these tests are all a bit odd at times. For example the best rendition i've felt is is Remote Phosphor but that doesn't always 'score' so well. And i've had no issues that i've 'felt' with these lights...

cheers
Paul

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK

Brian Wengrofsky
 

I agree and also feel the color and accuracy is much better with bi color type LEDs. Unless the RGB’s have improved more than I’ve realized, I stay away due to past problems, unless it’s specifically for color washes.

Brian Wengrofsky
Director of Photography
New York City

On Mar 1, 2018, at 6:25 AM, Chris Burton <chris@...> wrote:

Bi-colour temp is essential.

Chris Burton
 

Hi Geoff,

Bi-colour temp is essential. 

RGB is too complicated for fast and efficient location/studio work but I occasionally change the tint in post or add gel so a G/M control might be useful.

In this day an age either DMX to a desk or wifi to a (multi!) phone app that gives SIMPLE control of all heads. 

Mains or battery (with a live feedback of remaining time on battery at current settings… “can we get one more take? Let’s chance it. Doh!")

Overall KISS! (keep it simple, stoopid)




Director Of Photography
Manchester, England

Motion Controlled Time-lapse
Fixed Rig Time-lapse

Stock Photo Library
Digital & Print

http://www.lizard-king.comhttp://www.timelapsey.comhttp://www.kingdoms.co.uk





From: Geoff Boyle <geoff@...>
Reply-To: <cml-lighting@...>
Date: Thursday, 1 March 2018 at 06:37
To: <cml-lighting@...>
Subject: [lighting] How much colour control do you want in a lamp?

Talking to a manufacturer who is looking for input…
Bi-color is the rage, magenta/green & RGB is the talk BUT what do gaffers & DP’s really want?

Now OK, in an ideal world I want DMX control of RGB but in a real world, bearing in mind speed of operation and cost, I tend to feel that bi-colour plus a G/M axis shift is all I really need. In fact it’s simple and easily controllable.

 

What do you want? Bear in mind weight, speed of use and cost 😊

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Zoetermeer

www.gboyle.co.uk

+31 (0) 637 155 076

 

mark@...
 

Steve,
I was going to post and ask about the vision smith lamps. How do you feel about the larger wattage ones? I’d like to see or hear how they work in the arri 650 fresnels. How is the color reproduction and power in that 150w?
Mark Gambol
Camera
MG Pictures, ltd.
Philadelphia
mgambol@...

On Mar 1, 2018, at 2:21 AM, Steve Oakley <steveo@...> wrote:


I have a 150W vision smith led in a old 1K desisti I like. dims on AC dimmer. you really want to replace the glass lens with a plastic one, remove the shield wire and that adds an extra 2/3’s of a stop of light. its an interesting option to retrofit old lights. 3200 or 5600

Paul Curtis
 

On 1 Mar 2018, at 06:37, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:
Talking to a manufacturer who is looking for input…
Bi-color is the rage, magenta/green & RGB is the talk BUT what do gaffers & DP’s really want?

Personally i'm a really big fan of full RGB(W) lights. I think we've been 'stuck' with white temperature lights and it's ingrained that's all we need to shoot with. 

I think the beauty of RGB lights is all the off white colours and subtle shades they are capable of. Most reflected light is not white, could be off leaves or different surfaces.

I love the DS1s and also should have my hands on a voyager next week too. These to me represent very flexible lights. The hive ones too, i don't have any but look forward to higher powered versions and i believe they're single shadow whereas the DS1 are a bit more awkward in that regard.

As for CCT, i don't know. The DS1s are fantastic. But because you can tweak the whites then you have to calibrate them before going through the normal light testing. Then i suspect cheaper RGB lights have very spiky primaries and perhaps the mixtures are not ideal. Both DS and Hive have obviously spent a lot of time and research on getting the mix right.

Animating these lights are also very valuable. Could be obvious cars and traffic like effects or more subtle clouds across a sky. The voyagers appear capable of changing the colour along the tube itself which could open up some nice wrap around effects done simply.

What i do think needs more work are the apps and control over them. Protocols like Art Net and DMX are all very well but i've not found a half way decent app to program and animate them. Makes me almost want to break out XCode...

So i'd vote for RGB (or RGBW) and time spent on how you actually slave them together and control them.

cheers
Paul

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK

 

I'll put the science in here.

Bi-colour generally gives the best colour rendering, because the two or three phosphors used are broad-spectrum and don't leave any serious gaps. Adding a G/M shift is a real problem because it means that the basic white has to be made with a proportion of the G/M control, so the broad-spectrum bi-colours have to have a hole in green to make way for it, which isn't a natural thing to have (none of the luminaires of this type that I've measured score high in TLCI).

RGB etc is an effects lamp unless the R G and B are broad-spectrum: none of those I've measured score at all well when used to produce white.

So, we have a dilemma: good colour rendering means little control other than CCT, and good coloured effects means poor white performance. Any imrovement in this area is going to mean a significant hike in the cost of the units.

Alan Roberts

On 01/03/2018 06:37, Geoff Boyle wrote:

Talking to a manufacturer who is looking for input…
 

What do you want? Bear in mind weight, speed of use and cost 😊

 

Alan Roberts - Mugswell, Surrey
+44 (0)1737832586
+44 (0)7749387934

waynemansell1
 

To stay current they should take a look at what Litematts are up to. They are extending the standard CCT range by adding in a blue or red hue. This make matching to existing sources (architectural lights in a building for example) much easier.

3200 K is not warm enough for candle and warm bedroom scenes. 5600 K is not cool enough for modern offices with cheap ceiling panels which can be 8000K plus.

RGBW is essential also since we are really starting to light sets in colour rather than just with a chosen white.

As much as I love the Cineo matchsticks, their limitations are becoming very obvious.

Wayne Mansell
Www.lightinggaffer.co.uk





Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

Steve Oakley
 

BiColor and RGB are two different needs and purposes. generally speaking RGB is an FX light of some sort. 

I’d be FAR more interested in a 400w, 575w and 1200w LED thats bi color, fresnel or PAR option, isn’t a studio size light so its location friendly and no external power supply. its more output of good quality so I could sell off all my HMI’s. 

I have a 150W vision smith led in a old 1K desisti I like. dims on AC dimmer. you really want to replace the glass lens with a plastic one, remove the shield wire and that adds an extra 2/3’s of a stop of light. its an interesting option to retrofit old lights. 3200 or 5600

also - weather sealing for rain and snow use.

so to put it in perspective, I bought 10 RGB DMX LED 20W lights on ebay for…. $120. even have some auto modes based on sound. dial in your RGB and level. no you aren’t lighting up a stadium or a street, but for some color on a wall, a corner, on a band in a music video, all sorts of small stuff they work fine. plug in anywhere there is power. ton of simple cheap DMX controllers if you want. DMX isn’t expensive at all these days. even WiFi adapters. have phone app to talk to DMX WiFi adapter feeding first unit, hardwire the rest if you want.

 simple ARM board has WiFi, USB, bluetooth. so I’d add on some fire flicker fx, and a tiny mic for sound driven fx. all silly cheap hardware now. I actually built a 3 ch flicker unit a couple years ago using an aurdurino.

Steve Oakley
DP / Editor / Colorist / VFX Artist
Madison & Milwaukee WI
920 544 2230



On Mar 1, 2018, at 12:37 AM, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:

Talking to a manufacturer who is looking for input…
Bi-color is the rage, magenta/green & RGB is the talk BUT what do gaffers & DP’s really want?
Now OK, in an ideal world I want DMX control of RGB but in a real world, bearing in mind speed of operation and cost, I tend to feel that bi-colour plus a G/M axis shift is all I really need. In fact it’s simple and easily controllable.
 
What do you want? Bear in mind weight, speed of use and cost 😊
 
Cheers
 
Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS
Cinematographer
Zoetermeer
+31 (0) 637 155 076
 
_._,_._,

Argyris_Theos_cml
 

If they can offer M/G control, why not burn it into a neutral CT?

I would need proper color temperature, without shifts, then RGB if I want to go ahead.

In any case all this control interface has become easy to build.

The hard part is building good diodes

Best

 

Argyris Theos, gsc

DoP

tel. +30 6944 725 315

skype: Argyris.Theos

www.vimeo.com/argyristheos

 

From: cml-lighting@... [mailto:cml-lighting@...] On Behalf Of Geoff Boyle
Sent: Thursday, March 1, 2018 8:37 AM
To: cml-lighting@...
Subject: [lighting] How much colour control do you want in a lamp?

 

Talking to a manufacturer who is looking for input…
Bi-color is the rage, magenta/green & RGB is the talk BUT what do gaffers & DP’s really want?

Now OK, in an ideal world I want DMX control of RGB but in a real world, bearing in mind speed of operation and cost, I tend to feel that bi-colour plus a G/M axis shift is all I really need. In fact it’s simple and easily controllable.

 

What do you want? Bear in mind weight, speed of use and cost 😊

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Zoetermeer

www.gboyle.co.uk

+31 (0) 637 155 076

 

Mark Kenfield
 

Full RGB control is marvellous, but only so long as it doesn't come at the expense of perfect white light (at 3200k, 4500k and 5600k). If compromises have to be made to the white light rendering, I'd (personally) rather just bring in the RGB units as required.

Cheers,

Mark Kenfield
Cinematographer
Melbourne

+61 400 044 500

On 1 March 2018 at 17:37, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:

Talking to a manufacturer who is looking for input…
Bi-color is the rage, magenta/green & RGB is the talk BUT what do gaffers & DP’s really want?

Now OK, in an ideal world I want DMX control of RGB but in a real world, bearing in mind speed of operation and cost, I tend to feel that bi-colour plus a G/M axis shift is all I really need. In fact it’s simple and easily controllable.

 

What do you want? Bear in mind weight, speed of use and cost 😊

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Zoetermeer

www.gboyle.co.uk

+31 (0) 637 155 076

 

_.

Sean Emer
 

Switchable from bicolor w/ GM to full RGB w/ wireless control via mobile app or DMX with gel reproduction presets etc. is the best. New gear shouldn't follow what people would settle for, it should be pioneering the next generation of tech, otherwise the shelf life is hard limited.  Sets run faster and more efficient wm full wireless rgb units. It's only a matter of time before it becomes the standard. 

It costs a bunch now, yeah, but the more we use it the cheaper it'll get. I see people renting s60s in LA for under 100 these days, free market at work I guess! 

Sean Emer
DP Los Angeles 


On Wed, Feb 28, 2018, 22:37 Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:

Talking to a manufacturer who is looking for input…
Bi-color is the rage, magenta/green & RGB is the talk BUT what do gaffers & DP’s really want?

Now OK, in an ideal world I want DMX control of RGB but in a real world, bearing in mind speed of operation and cost, I tend to feel that bi-colour plus a G/M axis shift is all I really need. In fact it’s simple and easily controllable.

 

What do you want? Bear in mind weight, speed of use and cost 😊

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Zoetermeer

www.gboyle.co.uk

+31 (0) 637 155 076

 

Geoff Boyle
 

Talking to a manufacturer who is looking for input…
Bi-color is the rage, magenta/green & RGB is the talk BUT what do gaffers & DP’s really want?

Now OK, in an ideal world I want DMX control of RGB but in a real world, bearing in mind speed of operation and cost, I tend to feel that bi-colour plus a G/M axis shift is all I really need. In fact it’s simple and easily controllable.

 

What do you want? Bear in mind weight, speed of use and cost 😊

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Zoetermeer

www.gboyle.co.uk

+31 (0) 637 155 076