Topics

Conflicting info on high speed 1000fps lighting

Jonathon Sendall
 

Shooting 1000fps, possibly 1500fps, in the UK on 50hz. Had conflicting info on Arri Skypanels some saying they had image problems (flicker? phase?). It's mostly
tabletop and a little bit wider.

I've also heard that HMI's, even with high speed ballasts, can cause problems. Arc wanders etc. Not shot at this speed before so would be
grateful for a couple of pointers. Unfortunately little time to test as we shoot this weekend.

I'm sure I saw loads of info on the old CML lists but...

Any info gratefully received.

Jonathon Sendall
DP, UK

Alejandro H.
 

No problem at all!
You need to put them on high speed mode for this (no dimming allowed)


Alejandro H. Madrid

El 1 feb 2018, a las 16:04, Jonathon Sendall <jpsendall@...> escribió:

Shooting 1000fps, possibly 1500fps, in the UK on 50hz. Had conflicting info on Arri Skypanels some saying they had image problems (flicker? phase?). It's mostly
tabletop and a little bit wider.

I've also heard that HMI's, even with high speed ballasts, can cause problems. Arc wanders etc. Not shot at this speed before so would be
grateful for a couple of pointers. Unfortunately little time to test as we shoot this weekend.

I'm sure I saw loads of info on the old CML lists but...

Any info gratefully received.

Jonathon Sendall
DP, UK

Art Adams
 


You need to put them on high speed mode for this (no dimming allowed)

I assume you mean Skypanels? So they use PWM for dimming, but it's not super high frequency?

-- 
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area

Daniel Colmenares
 

I've had issues with flicker on HMIs in speeds above 300fps. It can vary by unit. I know Arri makes a high speed ballast that should be good at 1500fps but I haven't personally used it. Maybe someone else can chime in?

Most reputable LEDs won't flicker at full power but you might have issues generating enough exposure. I know the creamsource lights in particular to be flicker free at 2000fps.

Personally if the tabletop subjects can handle the heat I'd just stick to 2-5k tungsten sources. They should be able to provide plenty of exposure. 


Daniel Colmenares

Cinematographer, Los Angeles



Kevin Colber
 

You'll probably want to check to be sure the Sky Panels are running the newest firmware with the High Speed mode as well. I havent run into any that weren't updated but you never know.

What a strange world we are in now where DITs are commenting on lighting instrument firmware versions, lol.


Kevin Colber
(321) 759-4420

DIT | IATSE Local 600


On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 11:06 AM, Alejandro H. <neo.ahr@...> wrote:
No problem at all!
You need to put them on high speed mode for this (no dimming allowed)


Alejandro H. Madrid

El 1 feb 2018, a las 16:04, Jonathon Sendall <jpsendall@...> escribió:

Shooting 1000fps, possibly 1500fps, in the UK on 50hz. Had conflicting info on Arri Skypanels some saying they had image problems (flicker? phase?). It's mostly
tabletop and a little bit wider.

I've also heard that HMI's, even with high speed ballasts, can cause problems. Arc wanders etc. Not shot at this speed before so would be
grateful for a couple of pointers. Unfortunately little time to test as we shoot this weekend.

I'm sure I saw loads of info on the old CML lists but...

Any info gratefully received.

Jonathon Sendall
DP, UK

Tom Turley
 

HMI with high speed ballasts are good 4 out of 5 times. Modern fluorescents i.e. Kino are good 3 out of 5 times. Haven’t used skypanels yet for high FPS.

My point is that even stuff that should be flicker safe isn’t necessarily. I always have spares (ballasts and heads) and alternatives up my sleeve because in my experience nothing is guaranteed above 1000fps. I add at least 50% again to my lighting list so I’ve got somewhere to go if the heads I planned to use have issues.
------------------------------
= Tom Turley
= tom@filmtom
= 07900432114
= www.tomtdop.com


Shooting 1000fps, possibly 1500fps, in the UK on 50hz. Had conflicting info on Arri Skypanels some saying they had image problems (flicker? phase?). It's mostly
tabletop and a little bit wider.

I've also heard that HMI's, even with high speed ballasts, can cause problems. Arc wanders etc. Not shot at this speed before so would be
grateful for a couple of pointers.

Eugen Oprina
 

I had the same dilemma in December. After testing some HMI with HSB which proved to be unreliable I decided to shoot with incandescence. I didn’t have budget to try the Skypannels :(. 
The result was ok, we shot 1000fps on Phantom. 


On 1 Feb 2018, at 18:06, Alejandro H. <neo.ahr@...> wrote:

No problem at all!
You need to put them on high speed mode for this (no dimming allowed)


Alejandro H. Madrid

El 1 feb 2018, a las 16:04, Jonathon Sendall <jpsendall@...> escribió:

Shooting 1000fps, possibly 1500fps, in the UK on 50hz. Had conflicting info on Arri Skypanels some saying they had image problems (flicker? phase?). It's mostly
tabletop and a little bit wider.

I've also heard that HMI's, even with high speed ballasts, can cause problems. Arc wanders etc. Not shot at this speed before so would be
grateful for a couple of pointers. Unfortunately little time to test as we shoot this weekend.

I'm sure I saw loads of info on the old CML lists but...

Any info gratefully received.

Jonathon Sendall
DP, UK

Jonathon Sendall
 

Cheers Alejandro

You talking about the Skypanels or HMI's?

Jonathon  Sendall
DP, UK

Agustín Calderón AMC
 

Hello!

No problem.  For SkyPanels apparently they need to have firmware 3.0


I rather go with tungstens instead of HMI just because I hate to have all those super bright lights on all the time.


P
THINK BEFORE YOU PRINT! Please don't print this email unless you really need to










On Feb 1, 2018, at 9:04 AM, Jonathon Sendall <jpsendall@...> wrote:

Shooting 1000fps, possibly 1500fps, in the UK on 50hz. Had conflicting info on Arri Skypanels some saying they had image problems (flicker? phase?). 
I've also heard that HMI's, even with high speed ballasts, can cause problems. Arc wanders etc. Not shot at this speed before so would be
grateful for a couple of pointers. Unfortunately little time to test as we shoot this weekend.

Alvar Kõue
 

You can use ARRI Skypanel in highspeed mode without any PWM dimming possibilities:

High Speed Mode

The High Speed mode generates flicker-free light for High Speed shootings. High Speed Mode has been tested up to 25.000 fps and down to 2° shutter angle with no flicker or roll bars. The intensity is fixed in High Speed mode. The only settings are 0% (black out) or 100% (full intensity). In High Speed mode the settings for low end mode, tungsten mode, effects and PWM frequencies are ignored. 

On HMI highspeed units you might get arc wandering, then it's good to have ballasts with tuning possibilities, such as newer arri 1000hz ballasts and autoscan ballasts. There is usually a frequency where the arc is more stable and there is no rule where it's more stable. 

REGARDS,
Alvar Kõue
High Voltage OÜ
Nõlva 9,Tallinn 10416, Estonia
alvar@...
www.highvoltage.ee
tel. +372 5281706


On 1 Feb 2018, at 16:04, Jonathon Sendall <jpsendall@...> wrote:

Arri Skypanels some saying they had image problems (flicker? phase?)

Jonathon Sendall
 

It seems from what I have learnt that the Skypanels are fine but absolutely need Firmware V3 to be safe.
If you have a mixed set they won't match and you might get flicker

Thanks everyone

JPSendall
DP, UK

Miguel Bunster
 

Hi,
Used only skypanels on a recent phantom shoot on Highspeed mode at 1000fps 99 degree shutter. No problems. 

Miguel Bunster
Dp / chile
--
Miguel Bunster
www.miguelbunster.com
LA - (323) 963-4397
Chile - 7.9652894

Adrian Wolfson
 

Hi Jonathon

From the replies Skypanels looks like a good option. I've only used 5k Tungsten and above for high speed and would not trust HMI at those speeds at all. I did come across these new lights which would be an alternative but I haven't tried them out e but they do look like a great option. http://www.gavolighting.co.uk

Best of luck

Adrian

DP, London
www.adrianwolfson.com
07957557187

Alejandro H.
 

I've been testing and shooting with the skypanels up to 1800fps even against them and no flicker. 
For the hmi use high speed ballast and you wont have problems (m40 its my reference)
The tugnsten have to be at least 5kw but depens of the life of the bulb.

Also use some sunglasses :)



Alejandro H. Madrid

El 1 feb 2018, a las 18:27, Miguel Bunster <miguel.bunster@...> escribió:

Hi,
Used only skypanels on a recent phantom shoot on Highspeed mode at 1000fps 99 degree shutter. No problems. 

Miguel Bunster
Dp / chile
--
Miguel Bunster
www.miguelbunster.com
LA - (323) 963-4397
Chile - 7.9652894

David Pringle
 

Luminys Systems has a number of specialty high speed lights developed for military, car crash and Industrial high speed shooting at frame rates as high as 1,000,000 fps with absolutely no flicker and no arc wander guaranteed.  Some are our traditional SoftSun type lamps and some are LED.  The LEDs do not flicker even when dimmed, and they can strobe as well.

 

CirroLite in London has availability on some of these.

 

David Pringle, with a vested interest as founder and owner of Luminys, SoftSun and Lightning Strikes

North Hollywood, CA, USA 

 



Office Hours
Monday - Friday
8:00 - 18:00

Let's consider our environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail - Save paper.

This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. Luminys System Corp.,11961 Sherman Rd.,North Hollywood,CA 91605, www.luminyscorp.com

Art Adams
 

What a strange world we are in now where DITs are commenting on lighting instrument firmware versions, lol.

They're all computers now. :)

I had a recent product shoot with a Kino Celeb, a Kino Select, and two Skypanels, lighting a monochrome product on a white background, and we had to "program" the lights to match their color as none of their presets matched. (They Skypanels matched each other, but the Celeb was different to both them and the Select. Setting different kinds of lights to the same CCT guarantees nothing.)

I'm fine with DITs chiming in on that stuff. It keeps me out of trouble. The more my crew knows, the less I have to sweat the small stuff. Every time I assume I know it all, I get burned.

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area

Art Adams
 


You can use ARRI Skypanel in highspeed mode without any PWM dimming possibilities:

Right, it looks like it locks PWM out completely. When the only options are "on" and "off," PWM isn't a worry. :)

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area

John Roche
 

Years ago I was gaffing for Buddy Squires on a dance film for Ric Burns, and  Ric did not mention 1000FPS until we were on set (we had thought 120-180HPS highest they wanted) We were 3 hours outside New York City in a theater with not one light  over 1k. I had a couple old school 2k leko in my back pocket but sent my best boy to work quickly figuring out the phasing and we grouped each 1k or 750 in groups of 3 each on a different phase. I’m proud to say we squeaked by at 1000FPS and did some really beautiful work. 



John Roche, gaffer
C: 917-566-6256
F: 212-580-7237

On Feb 1, 2018, at 1:45 PM, Alejandro H. <neo.ahr@...> wrote:

I've been testing and shooting with the skypanels up to 1800fps even against them and no flicker. 
For the hmi use high speed ballast and you wont have problems (m40 its my reference)
The tugnsten have to be at least 5kw but depens of the life of the bulb.

Also use some sunglasses :)



Alejandro H. Madrid

El 1 feb 2018, a las 18:27, Miguel Bunster <miguel.bunster@...> escribió:

Hi,
Used only skypanels on a recent phantom shoot on Highspeed mode at 1000fps 99 degree shutter. No problems. 

Miguel Bunster
Dp / chile
--
Miguel Bunster
www.miguelbunster.com
LA - (323) 963-4397
Chile - 7.9652894

Adam Goral
 

5K is the smallest Tungsten lamp I would recommend for high-speed work. If you can go 10K, even better. Like the others have said, 1000mhz high speed ballasts on HMIs can work, but in my experience they are unreliable and I much prefer classic big tungsten or LED. 

Skypanel High Speed mode is great except for the lack of dimming controls, but that's what grip gear is for!

Regarding firmware, ALWAYS CONFIRM IN PREP especially if using a Luminair system to control them. Certain modes, such as "Lighting Effects", will not work inside Luminair unless the fixture is on FW3.1. I pulled my hair out recently over 1 of 8 Skypanels that would not give up effects control to my iPad before discovering it was only on FW3.0 instead of 3.1. Once we updated via thumbdrive (took 3 minutes) everything was groovy again, but I had less hair. 


--Adam Goral--
Los Angeles - Cinematographer 
adamgoralDP.com
 

--
--Adam Goral--
DP -- Los Angeles
adamgoralDP.com

Mark Sasahara
 

I have used Aadyntech LEDs with success, mixed with daylight at around 1000FPS. For more punch, M6s and M9s with Xenons for table tops, @ 2000FPS were good. Though, we had some flicker with one of the high speed ballasts, at that speed. The way the shot would be used, quick cut, it was not a problem. HMI's can be hit or miss. At 1000, or 1500, you are probably in good shape w/HMI's, but testing is a good idea. The quality of power can sometimes be an issue, and other things mentioned, too. If you can test in the actual studio/location you will be shooting at and have a couple of extra high speed ballasts, you should be OK. You can open, or close the shutter +/-, to reduce, or eliminate flicker. I have been able reduce flicker that way. I think I actually closed the shutter a few degrees, plus a few tenths, from 180.

Cool that SkyPanels have a HS mode.

As a a Phantom Tech, my job is being a DP, Gaffer and DIT. I have to think about what the Director, or DP wants to do, how to do it, how it will be lit and then how will I and Editorial will handle the resulting footage. But also on this forum, there are a lot of very smart, informed people who cover multiple disciplines. But we really have to cover everything, since everything seems to bleed into one another, especially with high speed.

Mark Sasahara DP, NYC

Jonathon Sendall
 

Thanks for all your replies. Very helpful indeed but I must say John Roche's reply tickled me the most and I hope I don't have to use such advice.

We went with Arri Skypanels, all updated firmware.

All the best

Jonathon Sendall
DP, UK

Mark Sasahara
 

Sorry, forgot to say that this was in the US, 60Hz territory. I have yet to do any high speed outside 60Hz.

As mentioned, you are always good with tungsten 5K and above. I have had 2K Arri blondes flicker on me.

Not to be alarmist but, two years ago, I did do a job where several HMIs were flickering badly, on day 2. We swapped out the whole set up for Tungsten, for the rest of the shoot. Never found out what happened. We were in a small theater with a decent, I believe fairly recent, electrical system. That was the first time something that effed up happened.

Always carry a spare, or be close enough to the rental company they can get you replacements fast.

Mark Sasahara DP, NYC

Suresh ROHIN
 

Easier way is get Creamsource Sky if you need lots of light or Bender this lights can be Synced with Camera shutter.  So at any given shutter Angie at any speed you will not have any issues.  I had done several test and I am the distributer for Canada.  You can google and find out the rental house in UK


Suresh Rohin.
D P.  Toronto   Canada.
www.sureshrohin.com

On 01-Feb-2018 9:18 PM, "Jonathon Sendall" <jpsendall@...> wrote:
Shooting 1000fps, possibly 1500fps, in the UK on 50hz. Had conflicting info on Arri Skypanels some saying they had image problems (flicker? phase?). It's mostly
tabletop and a little bit wider.

I've also heard that HMI's, even with high speed ballasts, can cause problems. Arc wanders etc. Not shot at this speed before so would be
grateful for a couple of pointers. Unfortunately little time to test as we shoot this weekend.

I'm sure I saw loads of info on the old CML lists but...

Any info gratefully received.

Jonathon Sendall
DP, UK

Nick Morrison
 

Also keep in mind Hive's Plasma lights - they are great for highspeed tabletop.

Are flicker free, give off very little heat, and consume half the power of an HMI. The Wasp 250's are somewhere btw a Joker 400 and 800, and pairing several of these with Skypanels can be pretty effective.

Another great feature is two Wasp 250's on a double yoke...which has as much punch as a 1.2K HMI...

Phantom tabletop is one of Hive's primary markets, so it's def something they strive todo well.

Jon Miller (their co-founder) is also a great guy, and makes it easy to root for them.

_____________
Nick Morrison
Founder, Director and Lead Creative
(646) 236-7884
smallgiant.tv

Jonathan Miller
 

"Jon Miller (their co-founder) is also a great guy, and makes it easy to root for them."

I would just like to confirm Nick's claims that I am indeed a great guy.... oh right yes Hive's plasma arc lamps are a great alternative to HMIs for high speed (100 - 1M+ fps) flicker free daylight :) 

But as many have mentioned Hz rate is the key (I know I know, I was also promised I didn't have to do math to be an artist), although when looking at your LED options PWM dimming curves can make it somewhat difficult to calculate.  In general what you are looking for is an LED that at some point in its dimming curve is straight DC and therefore has no cycle rate at all.  This is also why one can use the same light in situation A flicker free and then situation B and have a disaster.  

I can't speak to all the other manufacturers, but Hive uses an Analog dimming curve from 30% -100% output on our LED product the Wasp 100-C  this means we are completely flicker free at any frame rate within this portion of our dimming curve.  Below 30% things get more complicated, we start safe at 2500fps (this assumes a 180 degree shutter) and hold strong to roughly 500fps by the time you go below 1%.  The short explanation for why we add a Hz rate is color.  But I can dig further into that on some other post, some other time. 

Jon Miller
CPO/Co Founder Hive Lighting
Recovering Cinematographer
American in London 
See you all at the BSC show as soon as I finish this 3rd cup of coffee...


DPmatlosz
 

When in doubt use tungsten over 1200W  Standard HMI's even in FF mode can present an issue,  Arc's good luck finding one of those,  Skypanels tested in the USA up to 1500fps.  watch your waveform, Hire Jason from Love High Speed .  
Youll be fine.  

Jimmy Matlosz 
DP, LA, CA, ID

Eduardo Fierro
 

I just finish a job in Jamaica. 
Where there is no much to work with. 
Skypanels where just perfect at any speed I did 400, 500,  600. 800, and 1050fps,
On a Phantom Gold. 
And yes Because I had problems in the pass with HMI 1.2. I tested and yes flicker was present. 
Not with the 1.8 and the 4 K. 
And yes I try always to do tungsten  
but day situation an no having the 10k T or the 20k T to work with is a challenge but i survived. 



Eduardo Fierro S.V.C. - Local 600 

@eduardofierrosvc


 

ADVERTENCIA LEGAL:
El contenido de este mail es confidencial y dirigido únicamente a su destinatario.

LEGAL ADVISORY:
This message is confidential and intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed


On Feb 3, 2018, at 10:56 AM, DPmatlosz <jim@...> wrote:

When in doubt use tungsten over 1200W  Standard HMI's even in FF mode can present an issue,  Arc's good luck finding one of those,  Skypanels tested in the USA up to 1500fps.  watch your waveform, Hire Jason from Love High Speed .  
Youll be fine.  

Jimmy Matlosz 
DP, LA, CA, ID

David Pringle
 

Note that Luminys Systems has a 1200 watt Table Top LED for high speed.  It has been tested and proven flicker free at speed up to 20,000 fps.  Also during a recent Digital Cinema Society high speed lighting test it was the only LED that was confirmed to be flicker free throughout the entire dimming range of 100% to 1%.  We do not use PWM dimming.

 

David Pringle, with a vested interest as founder and owner of Luminys Systems Corp., Lightning Strikes and SoftSun.

North Hollywood, CA, USA

 

 



Office Hours
Monday - Friday
8:00 - 18:00

Let's consider our environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail - Save paper.

This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message, which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. Luminys System Corp.,11961 Sherman Rd.,North Hollywood,CA 91605, www.luminyscorp.com