Topics

How much colour control do you want in a lamp?

Geoff Boyle
 

Talking to a manufacturer who is looking for input…
Bi-color is the rage, magenta/green & RGB is the talk BUT what do gaffers & DP’s really want?

Now OK, in an ideal world I want DMX control of RGB but in a real world, bearing in mind speed of operation and cost, I tend to feel that bi-colour plus a G/M axis shift is all I really need. In fact it’s simple and easily controllable.

 

What do you want? Bear in mind weight, speed of use and cost 😊

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Zoetermeer

www.gboyle.co.uk

+31 (0) 637 155 076

 

Sean Emer
 

Switchable from bicolor w/ GM to full RGB w/ wireless control via mobile app or DMX with gel reproduction presets etc. is the best. New gear shouldn't follow what people would settle for, it should be pioneering the next generation of tech, otherwise the shelf life is hard limited.  Sets run faster and more efficient wm full wireless rgb units. It's only a matter of time before it becomes the standard. 

It costs a bunch now, yeah, but the more we use it the cheaper it'll get. I see people renting s60s in LA for under 100 these days, free market at work I guess! 

Sean Emer
DP Los Angeles 


On Wed, Feb 28, 2018, 22:37 Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:

Talking to a manufacturer who is looking for input…
Bi-color is the rage, magenta/green & RGB is the talk BUT what do gaffers & DP’s really want?

Now OK, in an ideal world I want DMX control of RGB but in a real world, bearing in mind speed of operation and cost, I tend to feel that bi-colour plus a G/M axis shift is all I really need. In fact it’s simple and easily controllable.

 

What do you want? Bear in mind weight, speed of use and cost 😊

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Zoetermeer

www.gboyle.co.uk

+31 (0) 637 155 076

 

Mark Kenfield
 

Full RGB control is marvellous, but only so long as it doesn't come at the expense of perfect white light (at 3200k, 4500k and 5600k). If compromises have to be made to the white light rendering, I'd (personally) rather just bring in the RGB units as required.

Cheers,

Mark Kenfield
Cinematographer
Melbourne

+61 400 044 500

On 1 March 2018 at 17:37, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:

Talking to a manufacturer who is looking for input…
Bi-color is the rage, magenta/green & RGB is the talk BUT what do gaffers & DP’s really want?

Now OK, in an ideal world I want DMX control of RGB but in a real world, bearing in mind speed of operation and cost, I tend to feel that bi-colour plus a G/M axis shift is all I really need. In fact it’s simple and easily controllable.

 

What do you want? Bear in mind weight, speed of use and cost 😊

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Zoetermeer

www.gboyle.co.uk

+31 (0) 637 155 076

 

_.

Argyris_Theos_cml
 

If they can offer M/G control, why not burn it into a neutral CT?

I would need proper color temperature, without shifts, then RGB if I want to go ahead.

In any case all this control interface has become easy to build.

The hard part is building good diodes

Best

 

Argyris Theos, gsc

DoP

tel. +30 6944 725 315

skype: Argyris.Theos

www.vimeo.com/argyristheos

 

From: cml-lighting@... [mailto:cml-lighting@...] On Behalf Of Geoff Boyle
Sent: Thursday, March 1, 2018 8:37 AM
To: cml-lighting@...
Subject: [lighting] How much colour control do you want in a lamp?

 

Talking to a manufacturer who is looking for input…
Bi-color is the rage, magenta/green & RGB is the talk BUT what do gaffers & DP’s really want?

Now OK, in an ideal world I want DMX control of RGB but in a real world, bearing in mind speed of operation and cost, I tend to feel that bi-colour plus a G/M axis shift is all I really need. In fact it’s simple and easily controllable.

 

What do you want? Bear in mind weight, speed of use and cost 😊

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Zoetermeer

www.gboyle.co.uk

+31 (0) 637 155 076

 

Steve Oakley
 

BiColor and RGB are two different needs and purposes. generally speaking RGB is an FX light of some sort. 

I’d be FAR more interested in a 400w, 575w and 1200w LED thats bi color, fresnel or PAR option, isn’t a studio size light so its location friendly and no external power supply. its more output of good quality so I could sell off all my HMI’s. 

I have a 150W vision smith led in a old 1K desisti I like. dims on AC dimmer. you really want to replace the glass lens with a plastic one, remove the shield wire and that adds an extra 2/3’s of a stop of light. its an interesting option to retrofit old lights. 3200 or 5600

also - weather sealing for rain and snow use.

so to put it in perspective, I bought 10 RGB DMX LED 20W lights on ebay for…. $120. even have some auto modes based on sound. dial in your RGB and level. no you aren’t lighting up a stadium or a street, but for some color on a wall, a corner, on a band in a music video, all sorts of small stuff they work fine. plug in anywhere there is power. ton of simple cheap DMX controllers if you want. DMX isn’t expensive at all these days. even WiFi adapters. have phone app to talk to DMX WiFi adapter feeding first unit, hardwire the rest if you want.

 simple ARM board has WiFi, USB, bluetooth. so I’d add on some fire flicker fx, and a tiny mic for sound driven fx. all silly cheap hardware now. I actually built a 3 ch flicker unit a couple years ago using an aurdurino.

Steve Oakley
DP / Editor / Colorist / VFX Artist
Madison & Milwaukee WI
920 544 2230



On Mar 1, 2018, at 12:37 AM, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:

Talking to a manufacturer who is looking for input…
Bi-color is the rage, magenta/green & RGB is the talk BUT what do gaffers & DP’s really want?
Now OK, in an ideal world I want DMX control of RGB but in a real world, bearing in mind speed of operation and cost, I tend to feel that bi-colour plus a G/M axis shift is all I really need. In fact it’s simple and easily controllable.
 
What do you want? Bear in mind weight, speed of use and cost 😊
 
Cheers
 
Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS
Cinematographer
Zoetermeer
+31 (0) 637 155 076
 
_._,_._,

waynemansell1
 

To stay current they should take a look at what Litematts are up to. They are extending the standard CCT range by adding in a blue or red hue. This make matching to existing sources (architectural lights in a building for example) much easier.

3200 K is not warm enough for candle and warm bedroom scenes. 5600 K is not cool enough for modern offices with cheap ceiling panels which can be 8000K plus.

RGBW is essential also since we are really starting to light sets in colour rather than just with a chosen white.

As much as I love the Cineo matchsticks, their limitations are becoming very obvious.

Wayne Mansell
Www.lightinggaffer.co.uk





Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

 

I'll put the science in here.

Bi-colour generally gives the best colour rendering, because the two or three phosphors used are broad-spectrum and don't leave any serious gaps. Adding a G/M shift is a real problem because it means that the basic white has to be made with a proportion of the G/M control, so the broad-spectrum bi-colours have to have a hole in green to make way for it, which isn't a natural thing to have (none of the luminaires of this type that I've measured score high in TLCI).

RGB etc is an effects lamp unless the R G and B are broad-spectrum: none of those I've measured score at all well when used to produce white.

So, we have a dilemma: good colour rendering means little control other than CCT, and good coloured effects means poor white performance. Any imrovement in this area is going to mean a significant hike in the cost of the units.

Alan Roberts

On 01/03/2018 06:37, Geoff Boyle wrote:

Talking to a manufacturer who is looking for input…
 

What do you want? Bear in mind weight, speed of use and cost 😊

 

Alan Roberts - Mugswell, Surrey
+44 (0)1737832586
+44 (0)7749387934

Paul Curtis
 

On 1 Mar 2018, at 06:37, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:
Talking to a manufacturer who is looking for input…
Bi-color is the rage, magenta/green & RGB is the talk BUT what do gaffers & DP’s really want?

Personally i'm a really big fan of full RGB(W) lights. I think we've been 'stuck' with white temperature lights and it's ingrained that's all we need to shoot with. 

I think the beauty of RGB lights is all the off white colours and subtle shades they are capable of. Most reflected light is not white, could be off leaves or different surfaces.

I love the DS1s and also should have my hands on a voyager next week too. These to me represent very flexible lights. The hive ones too, i don't have any but look forward to higher powered versions and i believe they're single shadow whereas the DS1 are a bit more awkward in that regard.

As for CCT, i don't know. The DS1s are fantastic. But because you can tweak the whites then you have to calibrate them before going through the normal light testing. Then i suspect cheaper RGB lights have very spiky primaries and perhaps the mixtures are not ideal. Both DS and Hive have obviously spent a lot of time and research on getting the mix right.

Animating these lights are also very valuable. Could be obvious cars and traffic like effects or more subtle clouds across a sky. The voyagers appear capable of changing the colour along the tube itself which could open up some nice wrap around effects done simply.

What i do think needs more work are the apps and control over them. Protocols like Art Net and DMX are all very well but i've not found a half way decent app to program and animate them. Makes me almost want to break out XCode...

So i'd vote for RGB (or RGBW) and time spent on how you actually slave them together and control them.

cheers
Paul

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK

mark@...
 

Steve,
I was going to post and ask about the vision smith lamps. How do you feel about the larger wattage ones? I’d like to see or hear how they work in the arri 650 fresnels. How is the color reproduction and power in that 150w?
Mark Gambol
Camera
MG Pictures, ltd.
Philadelphia
mgambol@...

On Mar 1, 2018, at 2:21 AM, Steve Oakley <steveo@...> wrote:


I have a 150W vision smith led in a old 1K desisti I like. dims on AC dimmer. you really want to replace the glass lens with a plastic one, remove the shield wire and that adds an extra 2/3’s of a stop of light. its an interesting option to retrofit old lights. 3200 or 5600

Chris Burton
 

Hi Geoff,

Bi-colour temp is essential. 

RGB is too complicated for fast and efficient location/studio work but I occasionally change the tint in post or add gel so a G/M control might be useful.

In this day an age either DMX to a desk or wifi to a (multi!) phone app that gives SIMPLE control of all heads. 

Mains or battery (with a live feedback of remaining time on battery at current settings… “can we get one more take? Let’s chance it. Doh!")

Overall KISS! (keep it simple, stoopid)




Director Of Photography
Manchester, England

Motion Controlled Time-lapse
Fixed Rig Time-lapse

Stock Photo Library
Digital & Print

http://www.lizard-king.comhttp://www.timelapsey.comhttp://www.kingdoms.co.uk





From: Geoff Boyle <geoff@...>
Reply-To: <cml-lighting@...>
Date: Thursday, 1 March 2018 at 06:37
To: <cml-lighting@...>
Subject: [lighting] How much colour control do you want in a lamp?

Talking to a manufacturer who is looking for input…
Bi-color is the rage, magenta/green & RGB is the talk BUT what do gaffers & DP’s really want?

Now OK, in an ideal world I want DMX control of RGB but in a real world, bearing in mind speed of operation and cost, I tend to feel that bi-colour plus a G/M axis shift is all I really need. In fact it’s simple and easily controllable.

 

What do you want? Bear in mind weight, speed of use and cost 😊

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Zoetermeer

www.gboyle.co.uk

+31 (0) 637 155 076

 

Brian Wengrofsky
 

I agree and also feel the color and accuracy is much better with bi color type LEDs. Unless the RGB’s have improved more than I’ve realized, I stay away due to past problems, unless it’s specifically for color washes.

Brian Wengrofsky
Director of Photography
New York City

On Mar 1, 2018, at 6:25 AM, Chris Burton <chris@...> wrote:

Bi-colour temp is essential.

Paul Curtis
 



On 1 Mar 2018, at 08:56, alan836975 via Cml.News <roberts.mugswell=btinternet.com@...> wrote:
RGB etc is an effects lamp unless the R G and B are broad-spectrum: none of those I've measured score at all well when used to produce white.

What have you measured?

I think that ebay cheap RGB disco lights are effects lamps, but there are others.

DS1s are RGBW combinations and Hive did a lot of work on colour combinations too (But i'm sure they'll jump in here with more details)

I can only really go by my eye and these tests are all a bit odd at times. For example the best rendition i've felt is is Remote Phosphor but that doesn't always 'score' so well. And i've had no issues that i've 'felt' with these lights...

cheers
Paul

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK

welch.k@...
 

Greetings CML Filmmakers,

 

Good morning and I hope everyone is off to a great day! I think this might be my first comment here but since we are looking for workshops space and have done a number of lighting series workshops with Peter Stein ASC and individual one day workshops with other ASC members I thought would reach out. One of the issues we have had is with the constantly changing equipment. While Peter teaches us great technique we mostly have used the old lights from when he was actively shooting some years ago. What do you think the most used and best lighting equipment should be used to do our classes. I am sure we can tweak with Peter or maybe there are Cinematographers here that are in NYC that would be interested in teaching newcomers.

 

Truly

Kim

 

 

Mr. Kim Edward Welch
Cell: (917) 743.8381
Publisher/Editor in Chief
www.studentfilmmakers.com
www.hdproguide.com

 

 

 

From: cml-lighting@... [mailto:cml-lighting@...] On Behalf Of Paul Curtis
Sent: Thursday, March 1, 2018 7:13 AM
To: cml-lighting@...
Subject: Re: [lighting] How much colour control do you want in a lamp?

 

 



On 1 Mar 2018, at 08:56, alan836975 via Cml.News <roberts.mugswell=btinternet.com@...> wrote:

RGB etc is an effects lamp unless the R G and B are broad-spectrum: none of those I've measured score at all well when used to produce white.

 

What have you measured?

 

I think that ebay cheap RGB disco lights are effects lamps, but there are others.

 

DS1s are RGBW combinations and Hive did a lot of work on colour combinations too (But i'm sure they'll jump in here with more details)

 

I can only really go by my eye and these tests are all a bit odd at times. For example the best rendition i've felt is is Remote Phosphor but that doesn't always 'score' so well. And i've had no issues that i've 'felt' with these lights...

 

cheers

Paul

 

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK

John Rossetti
 

Hi Kim

 

Who and what are you trying to teach ?

 

John Rossetti – in snow in London

 

welch.k@...
 

We get a broad mix of men and women of all ages from students in highschool to professionals depending on the focus. Mostly College University but can be all levels. Peter attracts people who have worked with him before and when we get Hollywood professionals like Roy Wagner we attract a lot of working cinematographers in NYC.

 

 

Mr. Kim Edward Welch
Cell: (917) 743.8381
Publisher/Editor in Chief
www.studentfilmmakers.com
www.hdproguide.com

 

 

 

From: cml-lighting@... [mailto:cml-lighting@...] On Behalf Of John Rossetti via Cml.News
Sent: Thursday, March 1, 2018 8:14 AM
To: cml-lighting@...
Subject: Re: [lighting] How much colour control do you want in a lamp?

 

Hi Kim

 

Who and what are you trying to teach ?

 

John Rossetti – in snow in London

 

Paul Mcilvaine
 

95% of the time bi-color, G/M and dimming is all that I use. But if you want to compete in today’s world you also need WiFi and RGBW. Built in lighting effects are a real time savor. Plus Battery operation.
I can put up with weight as long as the unit is built solid and can travel well.  
Two items that are getting overlooked are light quality and clean white light.


Sent by
Paul McIlvaine
LA/gaffer

On Feb 28, 2018, at 10:43 PM, Sean Emer <seanemer@...> wrote:

Switchable from bicolor w/ GM to full RGB w/ wireless control via mobile app or DMX with gel reproduction presets etc. is the best. New gear shouldn't follow what people would settle for, it should be pioneering the next generation of tech, otherwise the shelf life is hard limited.  Sets run faster and more efficient wm full wireless rgb units. It's only a matter of time before it becomes the standard. 

It costs a bunch now, yeah, but the more we use it the cheaper it'll get. I see people renting s60s in LA for under 100 these days, free market at work I guess! 

Sean Emer
DP Los Angeles 

On Wed, Feb 28, 2018, 22:37 Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:

Talking to a manufacturer who is looking for input…
Bi-color is the rage, magenta/green & RGB is the talk BUT what do gaffers & DP’s really want?

Now OK, in an ideal world I want DMX control of RGB but in a real world, bearing in mind speed of operation and cost, I tend to feel that bi-colour plus a G/M axis shift is all I really need. In fact it’s simple and easily controllable.

 

What do you want? Bear in mind weight, speed of use and cost 😊

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Zoetermeer

www.gboyle.co.uk

+31 (0) 637 155 076

 

John Rossetti
 

Hi Kim.

Then I think there are two answers to some of your questions

 

Q1) One of the issues we have had is with the constantly changing equipment.

A1) Generally Students want to learn “how to light” what kind of light does what AND WHY and about the large Lighting Grip inventory to modify / adapt and adopt their own styles.

I tend to do this with conventional lighting because older lighting tends to be single use, cheap, obvious, and easy in their uses.

 

A2) More experienced crew seem to want to learn about the uses and designs of the newer technology but are afraid to ask ! So here you have to keep up with all the latest trends, that’s expensive unless you can do a deal with a local sales or rental house to use their equipment in return for the publicity.

 

Q2) While Peter teaches us great technique we mostly have used the old lights.

A9) I think that’s right, a lot of modern stuff tends to try to be all things to all people and thus not very good at anything, if its techniques your trying to teach then the older the better.

 

Q3) What do you think the most used and best lighting equipment should be used to do our classes

A) see above ! I’m “amused” by the “rush” to new technology and pleased to see at  Pinewood at least it’s a crawl only. I can see power consumption being the main driver to the new technology but cost, efficiency and reliability it is not.

 

John Rossetti in an Igloo in London

 

 

Art Adams
 

I think we need RGB/WW/CW (red, green, blue, warm white, cool white). The multi-color fixtures that incorporate a white usually only incorporate a cool white phosphor, which might provide enough red to make decent skin tones at 5500K—maybe—but certainly won't do this at 3200K. At that point they introduce a bunch of narrow band red to create a metameric white instead of a true broad spectrum white, which generally makes red blemishes pop, misses other warm hues present in flesh tone, and just looks wrong.

To make skin look decent under tungsten light, you need a warm white phosphor. And, I'd argue, you need the same for daylight, as cool white phosphors don't quite do the trick either and could use a little broad spectrum warmth mixed in.

RGB lights will never deliver decent skin tone or color reproduction. They can't, because the way you create colors is by excluding all the wavelengths that aren't that color. That means you can create wonderfully saturated hues—thousands or millions of them—but you will never be able to make them look decent as white light illuminating complex colors (such as flesh tone).

The point made above—that green/magenta adjustments require that the phosphors be made in a deficient manner—makes complete sense. It may be possible to cheat this with RGB LEDs (increasing green for plus green, increasing RB for minus green) but as you're trimming with narrow band LEDs I think you're going to run into problems with extreme adjustments. The question that needs to be answered is how far you can push that before seeing weird artifacts and metameric failure.

Having said, that I think that warm/cool and plus/minus green are mandatory these days, if for no other reason than that no brands will produce the same color white light at the same CCT settings. I recently had to shoot a neutral gray product on a white background using all LED lighting. The first ten minutes of the day was spent white balancing the camera to one light and then white balancing the lights themselves to match that first reference light.

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area

Jeff Galyan <jeff@...>
 

I do a lot of genre work, so full RGB control is very appealing to me - I’d love to just tap a swatch or swipe a slider in an app and BAM! I’ve got exactly the color I want.  The Digital Sputnik “light grading” idea is interesting, but I haven’t played with it yet. 

I expect most users would just need T/D switching like the LiteGear products can do.  Other than the color control, I want pretty much what everyone else wants - no strange color casts that have to be corrected out, no color shift when dimming, matches tungsten or daylight fixtures do it can be mixed with more traditional lighting units, etc.

One thing I’ve only seen Mole-Richardson doing is describing their LED units in terms that tell you which traditional units their light output is equivalent to.  I’d love for the folks making the really compact units to do the same so it’s easier to choose units for a shoot.

Jeff Galyan
Director of Photography | Los Angeles / Worldwide

On Feb 28, 2018, at 10:37 PM, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:

Talking to a manufacturer who is looking for input…
Bi-color is the rage, magenta/green & RGB is the talk BUT what do gaffers & DP’s really want?

Now OK, in an ideal world I want DMX control of RGB but in a real world, bearing in mind speed of operation and cost, I tend to feel that bi-colour plus a G/M axis shift is all I really need. In fact it’s simple and easily controllable.

 

What do you want? Bear in mind weight, speed of use and cost 😊

 


Fred Young
 

I think the consensus would be bi-color is the base level people have come to expect from their LED lights. Plus/ minus green is nice, but in my experience not called for all that often. If the light engine behind the bi-color is RGBW then access to the individual colors is great. However all of that is really where the industry is at the moment. It’s what I’d expect from any LED light coming to market that’s primarily for film/ video. In my brain it’s what we wanted 10 years ago. 

Where I’d like to be in 10 years is filling out the color spectrum. Lights that have everything mentioned plus cyan, yellow and magenta, to start. When it comes to rendering saturate primaries we are all set with RGBW lights, but trying to light with saturated “secondary “ colors is a challenge especially by camera.  When compared side-by-side with something like a florescent gel'ed with Lee 101 (primary Yellow) the DIT shows the RGBW fixture that the LED color is dim and feels very thin/ pale, while the gel unit is full full of color and bright.  i’m talking about a mainstream “industry standard “ light, not a know off prosumer.  By eye I couldn't tell the difference between the two.

That and much brighter, hopefully phasing  out the 18ks and 20ks fully.

I won’t get into get into control (wireless/ bluetooth/ whatever) .  My opinions are probably going to be in a minority. 


Fred Young
Camera & Lighting for Motion Pictures
Boston, MA


On Mar 1, 2018, at 07:13, Paul Curtis <paul@...> wrote:



On 1 Mar 2018, at 08:56, alan836975 via Cml.News <roberts.mugswell=btinternet.com@...> wrote:
RGB etc is an effects lamp unless the R G and B are broad-spectrum: none of those I've measured score at all well when used to produce white.

What have you measured?

I think that ebay cheap RGB disco lights are effects lamps, but there are others.

DS1s are RGBW combinations and Hive did a lot of work on colour combinations too (But i'm sure they'll jump in here with more details)

I can only really go by my eye and these tests are all a bit odd at times. For example the best rendition i've felt is is Remote Phosphor but that doesn't always 'score' so well. And i've had no issues that i've 'felt' with these lights...

cheers
Paul

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK

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