Topics

Help! Need HDR DCP urgently

Geoff Boyle
 

I've just come from IBC a test showing of my presentation.
I have a QT file in ST2084 pq1000 and now they tell me they can only run a DCP

They've had the file for two weeks!!

I'm going to try and make one in Resolve but if anyone can help.. 

Geoff

Daniel Henríquez-Ilic
 

Do they have an EclairColor HDR-certified projector?

Daniel Henríquez Ilic
Director of Post-Production 
Fotoquímica Films SpA
Santiago de Chile

El mié., sept. 12, 2018 12:53 PM, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> escribió:
I've just come from IBC a test showing of my presentation.
I have a QT file in ST2084 pq1000 and now they tell me they can only run a DCP

They've had the file for two weeks!!

I'm going to try and make one in Resolve but if anyone can help.. 

Geoff

Daniel Henríquez-Ilic
 

Geoff, 

Which HDR DCP are you looking for?

*Dolby Cinema (PQ 108 nits)
*Eclair Color, 2.8 Gamma (or HLG) at 103 nits
*Onyx Cinema (emissive) PQ at 300 nits.

Daniel Henríquez Ilic
Director of Post-Production
Fotoquímica Films SpA
Santiago de Chile
+(56)975543323

James Gardiner
 


Well "technically" (Not that I think this is the best way to do this) if you render the images out in native PQ colour space.
Push it into a J2K encoder, and render you DCP as normal, that should be all you need.

Ie, typically you convert your images to XYZ -> DCP -> player -> projector -> XYZtoProjector-space -> screen.
changed to
typically you convert your images to PQ-> DCP -> player -> projector -> PQtoProjector-space -> screen. 

It should be transparent to the player.

Now, in this case, whom ever has the projector would be using the same type of path all the TVs do, using a tone mapping technology to bring the image into the best it can be for the capabilities of the display.

This is all very possible and the technique used for domestic.  Tho I am not convinced this should be the path for theatrical.  It is under discussion.

In terms of is PQ good enough.  This was always a big question for me as its a set luminance for each code value and if it can go to 10000nits and we are in HDR cinema, not likely going to be more then 106nits due to going higher results in to much light contamination (Bouncing of room/faces)
100/10000*100 = 0.1% of the luminance budget.  ie 0.1% of the 12bit code values.  (How can this be enough to represent the image I hear you say.)
Good question.
PQ is a curve, and from memory, a Dolby guy said to me when I approached him on this questions.  56% of the code values represent 0.1% of the luminance levels.  Just think about that for a second...
In any case, 56% of 12bit code values is enough to represent the image in a limited 106 nit max luminance level.

So yes..
But really you need to qualify the display and how it works along the full pipeline to ensure you take it all into account and can be sure the result is as expected.

Tho the other message here is that HDR in cinema and licensing is likely a short term issue as we have all the technology available based on SMPTE standard to implement a HDR result in cinema, we just need to as an industry, set the targets..


 

Regards,
James Gardiner
[m] +61 4 12 997011
 
digitAll pty ltd / Finishing Room / ClubMovie / CineTechGeek
Development Office
Suite 129, 9 Hall Street,
Port Melbourne, VIC 3207
[p] +61 3 9686 5415
 
www.digitall.net.au  -- www.finishingroom.com.au -- www.clubmovie.com.au -- www.cinetechgeek.com


On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 5:34 AM Daniel Henríquez-Ilic <dhisur@...> wrote:
Geoff, 

Which HDR DCP are you looking for?

*Dolby Cinema (PQ 108 nits)
*Eclair Color, 2.8 Gamma (or HLG) at 103 nits
*Onyx Cinema (emissive) PQ at 300 nits.

Daniel Henríquez Ilic
Director of Post-Production
Fotoquímica Films SpA
Santiago de Chile
+(56)975543323

ron Zimmerman
 

A week ago I also had to make a DCP under a close deadline and had difficulties getting a Resolve DCP to complete the output.

Instead, I found a free open-source program, DCP-O-MATIC, that did the job easily.


For my one hour film, both Resolve and DCP-o-matic needed nearly 24 hours to crunch numbers and complete the task.

Best of luck to you.

Ron Zimmerman
Director/DP
Los Angeles

On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 8:52 AM, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:
I've just come from IBC a test showing of my presentation.
I have a QT file in ST2084 pq1000 and now they tell me they can only run a DCP

They've had the file for two weeks!!

I'm going to try and make one in Resolve but if anyone can help.. 

Geoff

Mitch Gross
 

DCP-O-RAMA. 

Seriously, that the name of the app. A DCP takes hours to generate but it works great and the program is dirt simple to use. 

Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager 
Panasonic Systems Solutions Company of North America
New York

On Sep 12, 2018, at 11:52 AM, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:

I've just come from IBC a test showing of my presentation.
I have a QT file in ST2084 pq1000 and now they tell me they can only run a DCP

They've had the file for two weeks!!

I'm going to try and make one in Resolve but if anyone can help.. 

Geoff

Geoff Boyle
 

Thanks to everyone.

I’ve made a DCP overnight that is probably too bright 😊

Blackmagic are going to help me make on today in their part built show stand!

I need a DCP for a Dolby projection system.

 

Hmm, I’m at the International BROADCAST convention which this year is making a major feature of HDR and they can’t play ANY broadcast masters, only DCP’s

 

DCP is a standard that was created for SDR 2K, we are now throwing HDR 4K into the same 250mbps container, madness.

 

We have lots of alternative more modern standards 😊 lots of them!

 

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076

www.gboyle.nl

www.cinematography.net

 

 

Geoff Boyle
 

Unfortunately it will only output 2K files in SDR

 

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076

www.gboyle.nl

www.cinematography.net

 

 

From: cml-post-vfx-aces@... <cml-post-vfx-aces@...> On Behalf Of Mitch Gross
Sent: 12 September 2018 21:26
To: cml-post-vfx-aces@...
Subject: Re: [cml-post-vfx-aces] Help! Need HDR DCP urgently

 

DCP-O-RAMA. 

 

Seriously, that the name of the app. A DCP takes hours to generate but it works great and the program is dirt simple to use. 

Mitch Gross

Cinema Product Manager 

Panasonic Systems Solutions Company of North America

New York


On Sep 12, 2018, at 11:52 AM, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:

I've just come from IBC a test showing of my presentation.

I have a QT file in ST2084 pq1000 and now they tell me they can only run a DCP

 

They've had the file for two weeks!!

 

I'm going to try and make one in Resolve but if anyone can help.. 

 

Geoff

Daniel Henríquez-Ilic
 

Colorfront Transkoder might be what you are looking for. Colorfront has also a post production  facility in Budapest. They demonstrated several HDR features at Vegas NAB Show this year. 

However one thing is the HDR DCP and the other the projection side.

Good luck.

Best regards,
Daniel Henríquez Ilic
Director of Post-Production
Santiago de Chile

El jue., sept. 13, 2018 12:48 AM, Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> escribió:

Thanks to everyone.

I’ve made a DCP overnight that is probably too bright 😊

Blackmagic are going to help me make on today in their part built show stand!

I need a DCP for a Dolby projection system.

 

Hmm, I’m at the International BROADCAST convention which this year is making a major feature of HDR and they can’t play ANY broadcast masters, only DCP’s

 

DCP is a standard that was created for SDR 2K, we are now throwing HDR 4K into the same 250mbps container, madness.

 

We have lots of alternative more modern standards 😊 lots of them!

 

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076

www.gboyle.nl

www.cinematography.net

 

 

James Gardiner
 


250mbit is the top bitrate for non HFR type DCPs.  You can goto 500mbit peak now due to the HFR standards.  A modern DCP-player is rated to do 500mbit.
But  4K at 24-30fps will be fine. The codec was passes by all the DCI affiliated studios as non-perceivable difference from master at that bit rate (From my understanding)  Its all J2K based, which IS what the best industry codecs are going to as well.  Its just that DCPs use a heavier, better quality per byte profile.
For example. its no real secret, RED J2K or equivalent their bayer data.  One of the reasons you need the RedRocket.  Very heavy codec.  Not a real time codec but for specifically designed decoders such as in the RedRocket and DCP-players (Or more recent GPU assisted playback in editing systems).

IMF prefered target formats are all J2K based too.  VC-5 (cineform) was SMPTE ratified, but has failed to archive much tracton.  Apple would rather keep the codec dominance, and have been doing a lot of RDD, non-standard/proprietary standards so you can push there codec into SMPTE.  I am not a fan of this personally.  SMPTE have ratified better codecs, they just don't have the marketing and push it down the throats of the industry.
For example, INDUSTRY are working on new light J2K implementations, similar to the ones IMF, DCP all use, but taking out some of the heavy code to make it suitable for mezzanine codecs.
This should put a hole in the ProRes bubble.  Using proprietary codecs that have licensing issues that could come and byte you in the but down the track..  We need to move to unencumbered codecs and storage. (Imagine if you have to pay a license to open your old master files down the track.  Possible..  if in ProRes.  Who knows who will own it down the track, and what they will do with it.)

And Yes, Resolve, been meaning to call Peter and have a chat to him about that implementation,  Has some major issues.  The fact you cannot control the whatever to XYZ LUT on a render. Cazytown.  Should at least have the option to turn that off in the render parameters.  Not that I played with it to much but from what I saw, I cannot see how you can render to a PQ based DCP with it currently.
If possible, someone please do update me.

Regards,
James Gardiner
[m] +61 4 12 997011
 
digitAll pty ltd / Finishing Room / ClubMovie / CineTechGeek
Development Office
Suite 129, 9 Hall Street,
Port Melbourne, VIC 3207
[p] +61 3 9686 5415
 
www.digitall.net.au  -- www.finishingroom.com.au -- www.clubmovie.com.au -- www.cinetechgeek.com


On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 1:48 PM Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote:

Thanks to everyone.

I’ve made a DCP overnight that is probably too bright 😊

Blackmagic are going to help me make on today in their part built show stand!

I need a DCP for a Dolby projection system.

 

Hmm, I’m at the International BROADCAST convention which this year is making a major feature of HDR and they can’t play ANY broadcast masters, only DCP’s

 

DCP is a standard that was created for SDR 2K, we are now throwing HDR 4K into the same 250mbps container, madness.

 

We have lots of alternative more modern standards 😊 lots of them!

 

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076

www.gboyle.nl

www.cinematography.net

 

 

axel.mertes
 


Am 13.09.2018 um 05:48 schrieb Geoff Boyle:

 DCP is a standard that was created for SDR 2K, we are now throwing HDR 4K into the same 250mbps container, madness.

 We have lots of alternative more modern standards 😊 lots of them!

 


Hi Geoff,

regarding bitrates:
250 MBit is for JPEG2000 2K 24fps footage is actually way too much in most cases. When using the commercial encoders - which about everyone except the freeware solutions does - a 2K 24fps stream yieals around 100-125 MBit/s maximum in most cases. Surely one may create a special very noisy image that compresses not as good, but then again, the average is even lower.
In turn, the bigger an image is, the less big the compressed files are relative to it. Means, a 4K at 250 MBit/s is ok, at 500 MBit/s you may already see frames not getting "big enough" to fill the data rate at all.
HDR does not really change the equation, as DCPs have always been 12 bit and many source have been 16 bit, so gradation was always there. Its just the curve weighting that changed. And which output device can really do beyond 12 bits now? And are these 12 bits linear or exponentional and which curve exactly...?
Another story is HFR, which would really add up a lot. So 4K HDR HFR might be something to be concerned about, but 500 MBit isn't really that bad.

I am currently conducting some codec comparisons, similar to what I did with VC5/CineForm years ago - you may remember our talk with Patrick Palmer at IBC beach area about this. Can't wait to see the results and how they really compare.
The big point is that there won't be any magic new sauce codecs that could do I-frame only compression that much better. Its all quite close to the theoretical limits and you will trade a lot of processing time versus a very minimal efficiency. Why is VC5/CineForm still so interesting for post? Because its qualitywise comparable to JPEG2000, but with about 5-7 times higher speed on the same processor. I wish we would see a GPU implementation of it to blow peoples minds.

I hope you get/got your DCP in time.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Best regards,

Axel Mertes

Workflow, IT, Research and Development
Geschäftsführer/CTO/Founder
Tel: +49 69 978837-20
eMail: Axel.Mertes@...

Magna Mana Production
Bildbearbeitung GmbH
Jakob-Latscha-Straße 3
60314 Frankfurt am Main
Germany
Tel: +49 69 978837-0
Fax: +49 69 978837-34
eMail: Info@...
Web: http://www.MagnaMana.com/

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Ted Langdell
 

Perhaps Marquise Technologies or Adobe can help?

Here’s a quick copy/paste from a Marquise email. It has contact info for Marquise and stand numbers for both companies. 

Also check out FinalDCP. 

Tell Timm Baier I sent you. 


Ted

Ted Langdell
(530)301-2931

Dictated into and Sent from my iPhone, which is solely responsible for any weird stuff I didn't catch.

On Sep 12, 2018, at 8:52 AM, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:

I've just come from IBC a test showing of my presentation.
I have a QT file in ST2084 pq1000 and now they tell me they can only run a DCP

They've had the file for two weeks!!

I'm going to try and make one in Resolve but if anyone can help.. 

Geoff

Ted Langdell
 

Oops. 

Forgot that copy/ paste:

See Marquise Technologies’ products at IBC 2018
– Booth 7.D49


To schedule a demo with us : contact@...

 

.

 


Press Contact
Laurence Stoll, Marquise Technologies


Adobe at IBC 2018


At IBC 2018, Adobe will reveal new video features coming soon to Adobe Creative Cloud that bring creative power, production efficiency, and connected tools for broadcasters, brands, filmmakers, and online content creators. The upcoming release will include new production tools for motion graphics, color, audio, animation and immersive content. IBC attendees can see the features, available later this year, at the Adobe stand (#7.B35). For more information, visit www.adobe.com.


I have no connection to either company except as an Adobe Creative Cloud customer. 

Ted

Ted Langdell
(530)301-2931

Dictated into and Sent from my iPhone, which is solely responsible for any weird stuff I didn't catch.

On Sep 13, 2018, at 6:01 AM, Ted Langdell <tedlangdell@...> wrote:

Perhaps Marquise Technologies or Adobe can help?

Here’s a quick copy/paste from a Marquise email. It has contact info for Marquise and stand numbers for both companies. 

Also check out FinalDCP. 

Tell Timm Baier I sent you. 


Ted

Ted Langdell
(530)301-2931

Dictated into and Sent from my iPhone, which is solely responsible for any weird stuff I didn't catch.

On Sep 12, 2018, at 8:52 AM, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:

I've just come from IBC a test showing of my presentation.
I have a QT file in ST2084 pq1000 and now they tell me they can only run a DCP

They've had the file for two weeks!!

I'm going to try and make one in Resolve but if anyone can help.. 

Geoff

Ted Langdell
 

Perhaps this Marquise product could help?

http://www.marquise-tech.com/downloads/TORNADO_INFO_Flyer.pdf

Ted

Ted Langdell
(530)301-2931

Dictated into and Sent from my iPhone, which is solely responsible for any weird stuff I didn't catch.

On Sep 13, 2018, at 6:05 AM, Ted Langdell <tedlangdell@...> wrote:

Oops. 

Forgot that copy/ paste:

See Marquise Technologies’ products at IBC 2018
– Booth 7.D49


To schedule a demo with us : contact@...

 

.

 


Press Contact
Laurence Stoll, Marquise Technologies


Adobe at IBC 2018


At IBC 2018, Adobe will reveal new video features coming soon to Adobe Creative Cloud that bring creative power, production efficiency, and connected tools for broadcasters, brands, filmmakers, and online content creators. The upcoming release will include new production tools for motion graphics, color, audio, animation and immersive content. IBC attendees can see the features, available later this year, at the Adobe stand (#7.B35). For more information, visit www.adobe.com.


I have no connection to either company except as an Adobe Creative Cloud customer. 

Ted

Ted Langdell
(530)301-2931

Dictated into and Sent from my iPhone, which is solely responsible for any weird stuff I didn't catch.

On Sep 13, 2018, at 6:01 AM, Ted Langdell <tedlangdell@...> wrote:

Perhaps Marquise Technologies or Adobe can help?

Here’s a quick copy/paste from a Marquise email. It has contact info for Marquise and stand numbers for both companies. 

Also check out FinalDCP. 

Tell Timm Baier I sent you. 


Ted

Ted Langdell
(530)301-2931

Dictated into and Sent from my iPhone, which is solely responsible for any weird stuff I didn't catch.

On Sep 12, 2018, at 8:52 AM, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:

I've just come from IBC a test showing of my presentation.
I have a QT file in ST2084 pq1000 and now they tell me they can only run a DCP

They've had the file for two weeks!!

I'm going to try and make one in Resolve but if anyone can help.. 

Geoff

Riza Pacalioglu
 

“I wish we would see a GPU implementation of it to blow peoples minds.”

 

Programming with CUDA is pretty straightforward. I wonder why any interested party have already commissioned a solution for GPU encoding/decoding of VC5. It has been open source for almost a year.

 

It was (at least to me) a shame that GoPro has done nothing further with the CineForm codec.

 

Riza Pacalioglu B.Sc. M.Sc. M.A.

Technical Supervisor & Producer

South of England

 

 

Geoff Boyle
 

Well I’ve just looked at the 250 DCP that I’ve created and there are way more artefacts clearly visible than in the DNxHR.

 

Once again, numbers V images

 

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076

www.gboyle.nl

www.cinematography.net

 

 

From: cml-post-vfx-aces@... <cml-post-vfx-aces@...> On Behalf Of axel.mertes
regarding bitrates:
250 MBit is for JPEG2000 2K 24fps footage is actually way too much in most cases. When using the commercial encoders - which about everyone except the freeware solutions does - a 2K 24fps stream yieals around 100-125 MBit/s maximum in most cases. Surely one may create a special very noisy image that compresses not as good, but then again, the average is even lower.

 

James Gardiner
 

What encoder did you use please.  Can I have some frame references of before and after if possible..
Am doing some eval of DCP encoding for cinema and have been looking for examples like this.
Want to see if I can reproduce and test against other j2k encoders

If you have time of course. 

J

On Fri., 14 Sep. 2018, 2:13 pm Geoff Boyle, <geoff.cml@...> wrote:

Well I’ve just looked at the 250 DCP that I’ve created and there are way more artefacts clearly visible than in the DNxHR.

 

Once again, numbers V images

 

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076

www.gboyle.nl

www.cinematography.net

 

 

From: cml-post-vfx-aces@... <cml-post-vfx-aces@...> On Behalf Of axel.mertes
regarding bitrates:
250 MBit is for JPEG2000 2K 24fps footage is actually way too much in most cases. When using the commercial encoders - which about everyone except the freeware solutions does - a 2K 24fps stream yieals around 100-125 MBit/s maximum in most cases. Surely one may create a special very noisy image that compresses not as good, but then again, the average is even lower.

 

Jeff Kreines
 

I too am a big fan of CineForm.

Jeff Kreines
Kinetta
jeff@...
kinetta.com

Sent from iPhone.

On Sep 13, 2018, at 7:39 AM, axel.mertes <axel.mertes@...> wrote:

Why is VC5/CineForm still so interesting for post?

axel.mertes
 

Hi Geoff,

as I am conducting codec test these days, I am also really interested in seeing this and what kind of artefacts you are talking about.
If in any way possible to share the two file versions for inspection, it would be very interesting. Its also important to understand how your DCP was created.

There are currently only few major J2K implementations around:
- OpenJPEG2000 CPU
- Comprimato J2K GPU
- IntoPix J2K FPGA/GPU
- David Taubmann's J2K encoder CPU
- Jasper CPU

Most products use David Taubmann's team implementation and/or the Comprimato stuff.
OpenSource projects usually rely on OpenJPEG2000, which is very inefficient compared to the others. In fact David Taubmann's J2K encoder yields about half the data rate at higher image quality than OpenJPEG2000.

So assuming J2K equals J2K is the first misconception here, unfortunately.

And hardware based stuff is not necessarily better, often only just faster. Good example is RED Rocket vs. RED Software/CPU/GPU decoding. But here its mainly the DeBayer thing that is so way off on the Rocket, compared to the CPU/GPU results.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Best regards,

Axel Mertes

Workflow, IT, Research and Development
Geschäftsführer/CTO/Founder
Tel: +49 69 978837-20
eMail: Axel.Mertes@...

Magna Mana Production
Bildbearbeitung GmbH
Jakob-Latscha-Straße 3
60314 Frankfurt am Main
Germany
Tel: +49 69 978837-0
Fax: +49 69 978837-34
eMail: Info@...
Web: http://www.MagnaMana.com/

Diese E-Mail enthält vertrauliche und/oder rechtlich geschützte Informationen. Wenn Sie nicht der richtige Adressat sind oder diese
E-Mail irrtümlich erhalten haben, informieren Sie bitte sofort den Absender und vernichten Sie diese E-Mail. Das unerlaubte Kopieren
sowie die unbefugte Weitergabe dieser E-Mail sind nicht gestattet.

This e-mail may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient (or have received this e-mail in
error) please notify the sender immediately and destroy this e-mail. Any unauthorised copying, disclosure or distribution of the material
in this e-mail is strictly forbidden.


Am 14.09.2018 um 07:11 schrieb James Gardiner:

What encoder did you use please.  Can I have some frame references of before and after if possible..
Am doing some eval of DCP encoding for cinema and have been looking for examples like this.
Want to see if I can reproduce and test against other j2k encoders

If you have time of course. 

J

On Fri., 14 Sep. 2018, 2:13 pm Geoff Boyle, <geoff.cml@...> wrote:

Well I’ve just looked at the 250 DCP that I’ve created and there are way more artefacts clearly visible than in the DNxHR.

 

Once again, numbers V images

 

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076

www.gboyle.nl

www.cinematography.net