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History question about early (70s) non linear edit system "TIM"(?)

Steven Bradford
 

I’m hoping some of the old timers here can help me find some kind of online or book reference to this!

I was telling a student about an early non-linear tape edit system from the seventies that used multiple 1/2” reel to reel tape vcrs.
I first learned of it long ago when I worked with Charlie Brouyette at Crest lab in hollywood.

He had used it in the late seventies to edit the One Day at a Time series here in the US.
I think he also built it or helped build it. I thought I had seen mention of it once before in some online history of NLE, but now I’m having trouble tracking it down.
I seem to remember he called it the T.I.M system, but I don’t know.
It predated the CBS/Sony Betamax based NLE and also Ediflex by quite a few years. I think One Day at A Time was the only show that used it.
Am I imagining things? Any other old timers who knew Charlie or remember this thing!
All my web/Wikipedia/Imdb searches are only turning up the fact that Charlie worked on ODAAT.

Thanks!

Steven Bradford
Cinematographer/Instructor
Seattle, USA

Mark H. Weingartner
 

That’s about the right time period for the CMX editing system






Mark Weingartner, ASC
DP, VFX Supervisor, and Stereographer
Los Angeles based
vfxmark@...

Cigarettes make the sun come up
Whiskey makes the sun go down
And in between
We do a lot of standing around


http://www.schneiderentertainment.com/links/WEINGARTNER%20Full%20Client%20Resume.pdf
Represented by Schneider Entertainment Agency

Richard I Kooris
 

Steven-

In the early 1980’s, Neil Feldman had a multi-VHS offline editing system installed at his Video Post and Transfer facility at Dallas’ Love Field. I am sorry but memory fails me as to the name of the manufacturer.    The system was primarily used for commercial editing.  You loaded an identical copy of  your raw footage onto every VHS tape in the system and then proceeded to edit.  The system re-cued the machines to play back your edit and produced a compatible edit decision list.

Thx,

Richard Kooris
Director/Cameraman
Austin, TX 

On Dec 30, 2017, at 1:48 PM, Steven Bradford <bradford@...> wrote:

I’m hoping some of the old timers here can help me find some kind of online or book reference to this!

I was telling a student about an early non-linear tape edit system from the seventies that used multiple 1/2” reel to reel tape vcrs.
I first learned of it long ago when I worked with Charlie Brouyette at Crest lab in hollywood.

He had used it in the late seventies to edit the One Day at a Time series here in the US.
I think he also built it or helped build it. I thought I had seen mention of it once before in some online history of NLE, but now I’m having trouble tracking it down.
I seem to remember he called it the T.I.M system, but I don’t know.
It predated the CBS/Sony Betamax based NLE and also Ediflex by quite a few years. I think One Day at A Time was the only show that used it.
Am I imagining things? Any other old timers who knew Charlie or remember this thing!
All my web/Wikipedia/Imdb searches are only turning up the fact that Charlie worked on ODAAT.

Thanks!

Steven Bradford
Cinematographer/Instructor
Seattle, USA

Bob Kertesz
 

Perhaps you're thinking of the Montage, which (if memory serves) was a
very early NLE housed in waist-high cabinets with wheels and very sexy
(at the time) smoked glass fronts, and had MANY VHS machines and a
complex control system. It was quite cleverly done.

In any case, it's a certainty Bill Hogan knows, and he'll chime in.

-Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California

DIT, Video Controller, and live compositor extraordinaire.

High quality images for more than four decades - whether you've wanted
them or not.©

* * * * * * * * * *


On 12/30/2017 11:48 AM, Steven Bradford wrote:
I was telling a student about an early non-linear tape edit system
from the seventies that used multiple 1/2” reel to reel tape vcrs.

It predated the CBS/Sony Betamax based NLE and also Ediflex by quite a
few years. I think One Day at A Time was the only show that used it.
Am I imagining things? Any other old timers who knew Charlie or
remember this thing!

Scott Janush
 

The Montage Picture Processor used 17 Beta machines. I worked for them back in the day... and still have a deck and console in my garage. 

The Ediflex used (as I recall) 12 VHS machines.


-S



On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 4:43 PM, Bob Kertesz <bob@...> wrote:
Perhaps you're thinking of the Montage, which (if memory serves) was a
very early NLE housed in waist-high cabinets with wheels and very sexy
(at the time) smoked glass fronts, and had MANY VHS machines and a
complex control system. It was quite cleverly done.

In any case, it's a certainty Bill Hogan knows, and he'll chime in.

-Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California

DIT, Video Controller, and live compositor extraordinaire.

High quality images for more than four decades - whether you've wanted
them or not.©

* * * * * * * * * *

On 12/30/2017 11:48 AM, Steven Bradford wrote:
I was telling a student about an early non-linear tape edit system
from the seventies that used multiple 1/2” reel to reel tape vcrs.

It predated the CBS/Sony Betamax based NLE and also Ediflex by quite a
few years. I think One Day at A Time was the only show that used it.
Am I imagining things? Any other old timers who knew Charlie or
remember this thing!




--



•••

Visual Effects Editor - Teen Spirit
Happy guy.


Cell: 323.646.3416
Location Cell: 438.823.5511
Skype: sjanush / 818.668.3416



Feli di Giorgio
 

On Dec 30, 2017, at 1:48 PM, Steven Bradford <bradford@...> wrote:

I’m hoping some of the old timers here can help me find some kind of online or book reference to this!

I was telling a student about an early non-linear tape edit system from the seventies that used multiple 1/2” reel to reel tape vcrs.
I first learned of it long ago when I worked with Charlie Brouyette at Crest lab in hollywood.


It’s been over 20 years since this conversation happened, so please take it more as a lead than fact.

I seem to remember Price Pethel telling us young ins in the early 90’s about a non-linear edition system made from multiple decks. I can’t remember anymore how deeply involved he was, but I want to say it as at CIS (?) in Los Angeles.

Price also told us about a multilayer compositing system they built from multiple ACOM A60 (?) decks and Ultimate keyers. I believe they may have used it to do the Bud Lite / Rodney Dangerfield / squirrels commercials. Again, this is a really long time ago, so I hope I’m getting my facts straight...

Pretty innovative stuff for that time.


I believe Price is on linkedin and yes, he is the father of Mike Pethel the colorist.


Cheers

Feli di Giorgio


VFX / Apple Inc / San Francisco

_______________________________________________
Feli di Giorgio - feli2@... - www.felidigiorgio.com



Steven Bradford
 

On Dec 30, 2017, at 4:43 PM, Bob Kertesz <bob@...> wrote:
In any case, it's a certainty Bill Hogan knows, and he'll chime in.
Doh! Yes, Forgot about asking Bill. If he doesn’t chime in I’ll ping him off list.
As I remember the description, it used the Sony EIAJ 1/2” AV3650 reel to reel VTRs.
I also seem to remember Charlie saying that it was used for 150 episodes, but never on any other series.
This was long before the Montage and just before the CBS/Sony beta based system I saw demo’ed at the Studio City lot in 81.
It may not have been very non linear, it may have been more of a way to sync-roll off-line edit a multi camera show with much cheaper machines than full CMX bay with 4 or 5 Quad VTRs.
But now I’m beginning to doubt my memory, as I only know it from description and never saw it in operation.

Steven Bradford
Instructor/Cinematographer/Brain Dustbin
Seattle USA

Bill Hogan
 

HI STEVE:

YES your memory is good.  Maybe better than mine.... and YES it used Sony EIAJ 1/2” AV3650 reel to reel VTRs..

I will find the details and post them in a few days.....

And YES it did a multi machine sync roll and you were able to build a "linear" edited "work print"

And YES Charlie was involved.

Regards, Bill Hogan
Burbank, CA

On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 11:59 PM, Steven Bradford <bradford@...> wrote:
On Dec 30, 2017, at 4:43 PM, Bob Kertesz <bob@...> wrote:
In any case, it's a certainty Bill Hogan knows, and he'll chime in.
Doh! Yes, Forgot about asking Bill. If he doesn’t chime in I’ll ping him off list.
As I remember the description, it used the Sony EIAJ 1/2” AV3650 reel to reel VTRs.
I also seem to remember Charlie saying that it was used for 150 episodes, but never on any other series.
This was long before the Montage and just before the CBS/Sony beta based system I saw demo’ed at the Studio City lot in 81.
It may not have been very non linear, it may have been more of a way to sync-roll off-line edit a multi camera show with much cheaper machines than full CMX bay with 4 or 5 Quad VTRs.
But now I’m beginning to doubt my memory, as I only know it from description and never saw it in operation.

Steven Bradford
Instructor/Cinematographer/Brain Dustbin
Seattle USA

Bruce Douglas
 

I was telling a student about an early non-linear tape edit system from
the seventies that used multiple 1/2” reel to reel tape vcrs.
I thought Ediflex was the first to use multiple tape machines.
Apparently EditDroid used laser disks.

Bruce Douglas, DP
Sao Paulo, Brazil

Michael Most
 



On Dec 30, 2017, at 10:38 PM, Scott Janush <sjanush@...> wrote:

The Ediflex used (as I recall) 12 VHS machines.

There were multiple Ediflex models. The Ediflex 7 used 7 VHS machines, the Ediflex 12 used, yes, 12. The additional machines were helpful when Ediflex entered the sitcom market, where there are generally more cuts (a lot of them fairly short in duration). The additional transports allowed more pre-cueing so those additional cuts could be played in real time. Ediflex did not have any ability to record and use that recording as part of the "preview" playback. Its design was based on being in a permanent "virtual preview" mode. I would argue that Ediflex was the most successful of the tape based nonlinear systems, and perhaps the only one to succeed in multiple genres (single camera, multicamera, etc). I worked for Lorimar through the mid to late 1980s, when we were pioneering electronic post in general. We were also the largest customer for Ediflex (I still have the training manuals), using 3 or 4 systems on too many shows to list here. My job there for at least a year or so was as "special projects supervisor," which included investigating, testing, and evaluating just about every nonlinear edit system that came along. And there were a lot...

BTW, any editor today who uses Avid's script based editing features has Ediflex to thank for that. When Cinedco (the company who made Ediflex) folded, the IP that was the basis for these functions was sold to Avid. So in a way, the Digital Ediflex still lives.......

Mike Most
On Location Services Director
Technicolor
Los Angeles, CA.

Michael Most
 



On Dec 31, 2017, at 09:41 AM, Bruce Douglas <brucedop@...> wrote:

I thought Ediflex was the first to use multiple tape machines.
Apparently EditDroid used laser disks

Systems I recall, in no particular order:

CMX600 (multiple hard disk packs)
Editdroid (multiple laser discs)
Montage (multiple Betamax decks)
Ediflex (multiple VHS decks)
BHP Touchvision (multiple VHS decks, as I recall)
CMX6000 (multiple laser discs)
Laser Edit (multiple laser discs)

These all predated the completely digital systems that ultimately replaced them. Those would include Lightworks, Avid, D-Edit, and software solutions such as Adobe Premiere, DVEdit, Discreet Edit, and countless others.

Mike Most
On Location Services Director
Technicolor
Los Angeles, CA.

Mako Koiwai
 

Steve:


You might enjoy the Motion Picture Technology Group on FaceBook:


https://m.facebook.com/groups/491162214328442


So weird that our visualcentric World here is so devoid of images ...


Makofoto, s. Pasadena, Ca



Scott Janush
 

E-pIx

On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Michael Most <mdmost@...> wrote:


On Dec 31, 2017, at 09:41 AM, Bruce Douglas <brucedop@...> wrote:

I thought Ediflex was the first to use multiple tape machines.
Apparently EditDroid used laser disks

Systems I recall, in no particular order:

CMX600 (multiple hard disk packs)
Editdroid (multiple laser discs)
Montage (multiple Betamax decks)
Ediflex (multiple VHS decks)
BHP Touchvision (multiple VHS decks, as I recall)
CMX6000 (multiple laser discs)
Laser Edit (multiple laser discs)

These all predated the completely digital systems that ultimately replaced them. Those would include Lightworks, Avid, D-Edit, and software solutions such as Adobe Premiere, DVEdit, Discreet Edit, and countless others.

Mike Most
On Location Services Director
Technicolor
Los Angeles, CA.




--



•••

Visual Effects Editor - Teen Spirit
Happy guy.


Cell: 323.646.3416
Location Cell: 438.823.5511
Skype: sjanush / 818.668.3416



Patrick Gregston
 

Short of having Adrian Etlinger’s resume at hand, the best history of the obscure arcane development of editorial tools in that weird analogue yet non linear period is Micheal Rubin’s “ work by the obvious name “Nonliear”.

https://www.amazon.com/Nonlinear-Field-Guide-Digital-Editing/dp/0937404853

 

My cinema library is currently boxed in the basement having been made safe after a 2008 fire event, or I would be able to pull it from the shelf and remind myself of which failed effort inspired this thread.

 

From: cml-post-vfx-aces@groups.io [mailto:cml-post-vfx-aces@groups.io] On Behalf Of Scott Janush
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 9:14 PM
To: cml-post-vfx-aces@groups.io
Subject: Re: [cml-post-vfx-aces] History question about early (70s) non linear edit system "TIM"(?)

 

E-pIx

 

On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Michael Most <mdmost@...> wrote:

 


On Dec 31, 2017, at 09:41 AM, Bruce Douglas <brucedop@...> wrote:

I thought Ediflex was the first to use multiple tape machines.

Apparently EditDroid used laser disks

 

Systems I recall, in no particular order:

 

CMX600 (multiple hard disk packs)

Editdroid (multiple laser discs)

Montage (multiple Betamax decks)

Ediflex (multiple VHS decks)

BHP Touchvision (multiple VHS decks, as I recall)

CMX6000 (multiple laser discs)

Laser Edit (multiple laser discs)

 

These all predated the completely digital systems that ultimately replaced them. Those would include Lightworks, Avid, D-Edit, and software solutions such as Adobe Premiere, DVEdit, Discreet Edit, and countless others.

 

Mike Most

On Location Services Director

Technicolor

Los Angeles, CA.

 



 

--

 

 

•••

 

Visual Effects Editor - Teen Spirit

Happy guy.

 

 

Cell: 323.646.3416

Location Cell: 438.823.5511

Skype: sjanush / 818.668.3416

 

 

 

Michael Most
 



On Jan 01, 2018, at 10:35 AM, Patrick Gregston <patrick@...> wrote:

My cinema library is currently boxed in the basement having been made safe after a 2008 fire event, or I would be able to pull it from the shelf and remind myself of which failed effort inspired this thread. 


 Either that or one of us could get a hold of Herb Dow........  ;-)

Mike Most
On Location Services Director
Technicolor
Los Angeles, CA.

Patrick Gregston
 

Hi Mike. Great to see you in the internet kind of way.

Herb is on FB and holds a weekly post production old guys luncheon,  and he got everything he knows from Adrian, at least about the technology.

 

From: cml-post-vfx-aces@groups.io [mailto:cml-post-vfx-aces@groups.io] On Behalf Of Michael Most
Sent: Monday, January 1, 2018 11:01 AM
To: cml-post-vfx-aces@groups.io
Subject: Re: [cml-post-vfx-aces] History question about early (70s) non linear edit system "TIM"(?)

 

 


On Jan 01, 2018, at 10:35 AM, Patrick Gregston <patrick@...> wrote:

My cinema library is currently boxed in the basement having been made safe after a 2008 fire event, or I would be able to pull it from the shelf and remind myself of which failed effort inspired this thread. 

 

 Either that or one of us could get a hold of Herb Dow........  ;-)

 

Mike Most

On Location Services Director

Technicolor

Los Angeles, CA.

 

Scott Dorsey
 

Some information on automatic editing (editing A/B roll materials from an EDL)
for video can be found on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZUbtrZUAY8&NR=1

This is, sadly, a kine of a videotape....
--scott

Scott Dorsey
Kludge Audio
Williamsburg, VA.

Steven Bradford
 

On Jan 02, 2018, at 7:02 AM, Scott Dorsey <kludge@...> wrote:

This is, sadly, a kine of a videotape....
Yes, I can’t imagine how they showed this to commercial clients unless they came to the station to watch it, I believe their sales force took it out to show clients on 16mm which is probably why it survives.

Steven Bradford
Video tech history geek
Seattle WA