Web Analytics
   Date   

Re: Sigma fp

Daniel Rozsnyó
 


On 12/27/20 3:26 AM, Mitch Gross wrote:
Because uncompressed RAW means huge files that take up a lot of disk space, take a lot of time to transfer, and require considerable computer power to deal with. But with Log encoding you get the vast majority of flexibility in what the sensor can capture but recorded in a data scale that is reasonable enough to everyone to work with. Clients won’t complain about the data load and the work can happen quickly and effectively.


Sorry, but having LOG does not mean "huge compression" at all. Maybe you mix up things - like you bring in also AVC or HEVC to the process, those ones have such poor bit depth (8 or 10bit), so the only way to feed a wide dynamic range picture to these codecs is to apply a LOG conversion.

For me a LOG format compared to LINEAR is anything with missing codes - basically a LUT to convert from more bits to less bits. Like from 10 to 8 or from 12 to 10, or from 14 to 12. And that saves about 20% of data rate, in "uncompressed" form. Because LOG is not just a mapping scheme, but also a very simple and lossy compression (you are not able to recover the linear original, some posterization will happen).

Most of the BMD cams, which resolve more than 12 bits (eg. by a dual-gain readout) apply such log conversion silently even for the DNGs - (where the feature is called LinearizationTable), but in the rare case of the dual-gain ADC readout, there was never a linear range form, that would contain all the shades - basically the 11+11 bit reading, that covers 14 stops thanks to the 3 stop separation, is loss-lessly storable in a 12 bit form (1 bit to tell whether the shade is within the low or high gain, and the 11 bits of that gain).

So again, please do not mix apples and oranges. LOG is not related to huge compression. H264 and H265 are the ones to blame for the convenience of small files!


You are also wrong on the need of computer power - the uncompressed footage will be ALWAYS easier to process than any of the AVC/HEVC ones (try to render a clip with reversed time..). Drive capacity/speed or network bandwidth sure needs to be adjusted - I see no problem here, we have multi-gigabit SDI for two decades, and you still complain to not have enough power on your pocket calculator. Upgrade your gear, its doable.


The whole issue with uncompressed workflow (or the thing which killed it at classic vendors) was the absurd price of branded media, an even more absurd ratio of performance/price, which then resulted either in inability to keep up with the bitrate, or limited the usability because the low capacity was for silly short takes. Devices which offer recording to any media do a lot better job here.



Ing. Daniel Rozsnyo
camera developer
Prague, CZ


Re: Sigma fp

Jeff Kreines
 

I’m surprised that, now that it’s open source, no camera manufacturer has adopted Cineform RAW. Wavelet compression, compact files that work nicely with Resolve (et al) — not to mention freedom from worries that Apple will do something stupid with ProRes.  

I still think that, for Bayer CFA cameras) any format that’s not RAW is silly.  Why de-Bayer, bake in the de-mosiacing, and triple the file size when it reduces flexibility in grading and doesn’t improve image quality!

Most of our scanner users have happily chosen 16-bit Cineform RAW as their capture format.  



Jeff Kreines
Kinetta
jeff@...
kinetta.com

Sent from iPhone. 

On Dec 26, 2020, at 8:35 PM, Rakesh Malik <tamerlin@...> wrote:


I like having a raw option, but I don't see any point in uncompressed raw. It's a waste of space, even for workflows requiring raw since even a lossless codec can save a lot of space, and a clip based raw codec can be even more efficient, and a lot faster to transfer.

There are also clients who don't want to deal with raw at all who would be much happier with a codec like ProRes with log encoding. Even that is overkill for a lot of clients, though.

-----------------------------


On Sat, Dec 26, 2020 at 6:26 PM Mitch Gross <mitchgrosscml@...> wrote:
Because uncompressed RAW means huge files that take up a lot of disk space, take a lot of time to transfer, and require considerable computer power to deal with. But with Log encoding you get the vast majority of flexibility in what the sensor can capture but recorded in a data scale that is reasonable enough to everyone to work with. Clients won’t complain about the data load and the work can happen quickly and effectively. 

Uncompressed RAW has been available for well over a decade on major camera systems and devices I’ve been directly involved with. The vast majority of people who owned these or considered owning them hated the workflow and often did workarounds to avoid it. When reasonably compressed Log recording became available to these same devices their popularity skyrocketed. It has happened numerous times. 

DPs who don’t have to care about workflow want uncompressed RAW. DPs shooting for the highest level productions want uncompressed RAW. I understand that. But they comprise an infinitesimal percentage of actual users. Most people want the advantages of capturing all that dynamic range while not having the burden of uncompressed RAW workflow. For a petite and inexpensive camera such as the Sigma FP I would argue that the vast majority of people considering its use, compressed Log video is far more attractive than uncompressed RAW. 

Mitch Gross
New York

On Dec 26, 2020, at 6:46 PM, Pawel Achtel ACS <pawel.achtel@...> wrote:

[Mitch Gross] I would expect that Log encoding is more useful to a vast number of CMLers and DPs in general than Uncompressed RAW recording.

Why?


Re: Sigma fp

Rakesh Malik
 

I like having a raw option, but I don't see any point in uncompressed raw. It's a waste of space, even for workflows requiring raw since even a lossless codec can save a lot of space, and a clip based raw codec can be even more efficient, and a lot faster to transfer.

There are also clients who don't want to deal with raw at all who would be much happier with a codec like ProRes with log encoding. Even that is overkill for a lot of clients, though.

-----------------------------


On Sat, Dec 26, 2020 at 6:26 PM Mitch Gross <mitchgrosscml@...> wrote:
Because uncompressed RAW means huge files that take up a lot of disk space, take a lot of time to transfer, and require considerable computer power to deal with. But with Log encoding you get the vast majority of flexibility in what the sensor can capture but recorded in a data scale that is reasonable enough to everyone to work with. Clients won’t complain about the data load and the work can happen quickly and effectively. 

Uncompressed RAW has been available for well over a decade on major camera systems and devices I’ve been directly involved with. The vast majority of people who owned these or considered owning them hated the workflow and often did workarounds to avoid it. When reasonably compressed Log recording became available to these same devices their popularity skyrocketed. It has happened numerous times. 

DPs who don’t have to care about workflow want uncompressed RAW. DPs shooting for the highest level productions want uncompressed RAW. I understand that. But they comprise an infinitesimal percentage of actual users. Most people want the advantages of capturing all that dynamic range while not having the burden of uncompressed RAW workflow. For a petite and inexpensive camera such as the Sigma FP I would argue that the vast majority of people considering its use, compressed Log video is far more attractive than uncompressed RAW. 

Mitch Gross
New York

On Dec 26, 2020, at 6:46 PM, Pawel Achtel ACS <pawel.achtel@...> wrote:

[Mitch Gross] I would expect that Log encoding is more useful to a vast number of CMLers and DPs in general than Uncompressed RAW recording.

Why?


Re: Sigma fp

Mitch Gross
 

Because uncompressed RAW means huge files that take up a lot of disk space, take a lot of time to transfer, and require considerable computer power to deal with. But with Log encoding you get the vast majority of flexibility in what the sensor can capture but recorded in a data scale that is reasonable enough to everyone to work with. Clients won’t complain about the data load and the work can happen quickly and effectively. 

Uncompressed RAW has been available for well over a decade on major camera systems and devices I’ve been directly involved with. The vast majority of people who owned these or considered owning them hated the workflow and often did workarounds to avoid it. When reasonably compressed Log recording became available to these same devices their popularity skyrocketed. It has happened numerous times. 

DPs who don’t have to care about workflow want uncompressed RAW. DPs shooting for the highest level productions want uncompressed RAW. I understand that. But they comprise an infinitesimal percentage of actual users. Most people want the advantages of capturing all that dynamic range while not having the burden of uncompressed RAW workflow. For a petite and inexpensive camera such as the Sigma FP I would argue that the vast majority of people considering its use, compressed Log video is far more attractive than uncompressed RAW. 

Mitch Gross
New York

On Dec 26, 2020, at 6:46 PM, Pawel Achtel ACS <pawel.achtel@...> wrote:

[Mitch Gross] I would expect that Log encoding is more useful to a vast number of CMLers and DPs in general than Uncompressed RAW recording.

Why?


Re: Sigma fp

Pawel Achtel, ACS
 

[Mitch Gross] I would expect that Log encoding is more useful to a vast number of CMLers and DPs in general than Uncompressed RAW recording.

Why?

 

Kind Regards,

 

Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc.

“Sharp to the Edge”

 

ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417

Website: www.achtel.com

Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747)

Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia

Address: RA 913 Coles Bay Rd., Coles Bay, TAS 7215, Australia

Location: S 42° 0'14.40"S, E 148°14'47.13"

Email: Pawel.Achtel@...

Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel

Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel

Skype: Pawel.Achtel

 


Re: Sigma fp

Andrew Hunter
 

Hey Pawel, 

It doesn’t have genlock or time code inputs. 


We jammed it with LTC timecode over the mic input on the last show I used it on. Camera read the timecode and laid it down as timecode metadata in the CinemaDNG files. 

Sincerely,
Andrew Hunter
1st AC 
Toronto, Canada

On Sat, Dec 26, 2020 at 3:58 PM Pawel Achtel ACS <pawel.achtel@...> wrote:

Ø  Perhaps someone can tell me what's wrong with it?

 

It doesn’t have genlock or time code inputs. It lacks 24fps and 30 fps, only

29.97, 25fps and 23.98 fps in RAW and doesn’t do high frame rates. It also records 1920x1080 and 3,840×2,160, but no full DCI 2K or 4K.

Also, as mentioned, it has rolling shutter. There is no external power option.

But, other than that, it trumps most other digital cinema cameras.

If the above limitations are workable, I wouldn’t hesitate to use it as an A camera on any production (except Giant Screen).

Menus are easy to navigate and a nice change from many digital cameras. Build quality is superb.

Dynamic range and low light sensitivity are first class.

 

Ø  And 8bit DNG seems a bit strange ?

That’s incorrect. It does support full 12-bit uncompressed Cinema DNG with external SSD recording.

 

Ø  I haven't been using it all that much for video though, because its recording format is uncompressed cDNG, which isn't particularly convenient.

Uncompressed 12-bit CinemaDNG RAW is excellent format to work with. The data rate is up to 370 MB/s and exceeds that of most other digital cinema cameras.

With the lack of compression comes clack of compression artefacts. It’s nice “thick negative”.

 

Ø  Sigma doesn't have any form of log encoding available for the fp

Who needs log when there is uncompressed RAW?

 

Kind Regards,

 

Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc.

“Sharp to the Edge”

 

ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417

Website: www.achtel.com

Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747)

Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia

Address: RA 913 Coles Bay Rd., Coles Bay, TAS 7215, Australia

Location: S 42° 0'14.40"S, E 148°14'47.13"

Email: Pawel.Achtel@...

Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel

Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel

Skype: Pawel.Achtel

 

From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... [mailto:cml-raw-log-hdr@...] On Behalf Of Noel Sterrett
Sent: Sunday, 27 December 2020 2:44 AM
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@...
Subject: [cml-raw-log-hdr] Sigma fp

 

This tiny full frame 5.9K Bayer sensor L-mount camera shoots 4K Cinema DNG (8 bit internally, 12 bit
with a tiny USB SSD drive attached) and outputs via HDMI to a Blackmagic Video Assist 12G (BRAW) or
Atomos Ninga V (ProRes RAW).

The images I have seen so far are amazing.

Perhaps someone can tell me what's wrong with it?

Happy New Year!




Re: Sigma fp

Noel Sterrett
 

On 12/26/20 5:18 PM, Mitch Gross wrote:
I would expect that Log encoding is more useful to a vast number of CMLers and DPs in general than
Uncompressed RAW recording.
12 bit RAW is not the only option, it's just one of many with bit rates from 410 to 2980. But the
idea that you can record up to 12 bit RAW 4K with only the addition of a tiny, inexpensive SSD is
for me a long awaited delight.


Re: Sigma fp

Mitch Gross
 

On Dec 26, 2020, at 4:01 PM, Pawel Achtel ACS <pawel.achtel@...> wrote:

Who needs log when there is uncompressed RAW?
I would expect that Log encoding is more useful to a vast number of CMLers and DPs in general than Uncompressed RAW recording.


Mitch Gross
New York


Re: Sigma fp

Noel Sterrett
 


On 12/26/20 3:58 PM, Pawel Achtel ACS wrote:
but no full DCI 2K or 4K.
You can get full DCI and 24fps with the BMD Video Assist 12G recording BRAW.


Re: Sigma fp

Pawel Achtel, ACS
 

Ø  Perhaps someone can tell me what's wrong with it?

 

It doesn’t have genlock or time code inputs. It lacks 24fps and 30 fps, only

29.97, 25fps and 23.98 fps in RAW and doesn’t do high frame rates. It also records 1920x1080 and 3,840×2,160, but no full DCI 2K or 4K.

Also, as mentioned, it has rolling shutter. There is no external power option.

But, other than that, it trumps most other digital cinema cameras.

If the above limitations are workable, I wouldn’t hesitate to use it as an A camera on any production (except Giant Screen).

Menus are easy to navigate and a nice change from many digital cameras. Build quality is superb.

Dynamic range and low light sensitivity are first class.

 

Ø  And 8bit DNG seems a bit strange ?

That’s incorrect. It does support full 12-bit uncompressed Cinema DNG with external SSD recording.

 

Ø  I haven't been using it all that much for video though, because its recording format is uncompressed cDNG, which isn't particularly convenient.

Uncompressed 12-bit CinemaDNG RAW is excellent format to work with. The data rate is up to 370 MB/s and exceeds that of most other digital cinema cameras.

With the lack of compression comes clack of compression artefacts. It’s nice “thick negative”.

 

Ø  Sigma doesn't have any form of log encoding available for the fp

Who needs log when there is uncompressed RAW?

 

Kind Regards,

 

Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc.

“Sharp to the Edge”

 

ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417

Website: www.achtel.com

Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747)

Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia

Address: RA 913 Coles Bay Rd., Coles Bay, TAS 7215, Australia

Location: S 42° 0'14.40"S, E 148°14'47.13"

Email: Pawel.Achtel@...

Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel

Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel

Skype: Pawel.Achtel

 

From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... [mailto:cml-raw-log-hdr@...] On Behalf Of Noel Sterrett
Sent: Sunday, 27 December 2020 2:44 AM
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@...
Subject: [cml-raw-log-hdr] Sigma fp

 

This tiny full frame 5.9K Bayer sensor L-mount camera shoots 4K Cinema DNG (8 bit internally, 12 bit
with a tiny USB SSD drive attached) and outputs via HDMI to a Blackmagic Video Assist 12G (BRAW) or
Atomos Ninga V (ProRes RAW).

The images I have seen so far are amazing.

Perhaps someone can tell me what's wrong with it?

Happy New Year!


Re: Sigma fp

John Brawley
 

The rolling shutter was fairly slow, about 20ms from my memory. 

For use as a stills camera the AF was fairly poor. And errrr the full time rolling shutter for a stills camera was a bit on the slow side. 

Didn’t have LUTS or a very nice workflow from DNG.  Meant you had to know how to grade ;-)

And 8bit DNG seems a bit strange ?

It had/s great potential though. I was looking at it just as directors viewfinder.  They have some good cine oriented features for that purpose too (frame lines and things)

In the end I personally couldn’t justify it replacing anything I’m currently using. A seperate stills camera and small motion cameras. It couldn’t do either job “better”.  But if you want all in one then it’s a great option. 

JB



-- 


John Brawley ACS
Cinematographer
Los Angeles

On December 26, 2020 at 10:19:27 AM, Noel Sterrett (noel@...) wrote:


On 12/26/20 11:22 AM, Rakesh Malik wrote:
There really isn't in my opinion much wrong with the fp

Thanks. It think it's time to give one a try. With a gimbal stabilizer and small, light camera, one could do a lot for a little.
_._,_._,_


Re: Sigma fp

Noel Sterrett
 


On 12/26/20 11:22 AM, Rakesh Malik wrote:
There really isn't in my opinion much wrong with the fp

Thanks. It think it's time to give one a try. With a gimbal stabilizer and small, light camera, one could do a lot for a little.


Re: Sigma fp

Rakesh Malik
 

There really isn't in my opinion much wrong with the fp, except for being from a company that isn't known for cameras, even though it's been making cameras for a long time. IMO the relatively low acceptance of Sigma's prior cameras has more to do with the unwise choice of a proprietary lens mount than anything else.

The fp has good color rendition, good dynamic range, and good ergonomics. The internal recording options, including when using an external SSD, are limited to HD and UHD, and pulldown frame rates only, but it supports DCI when using an external recorder.

Sigma doesn't have any form of log encoding available for the fp, and I don't know whether or not that will change. Fortunately it has quite a bit more dynamic range than AJA's Cion so it hasn't been much of a problem for me so far. I've used it as a B-cam on a couple of shoots alongside a Red camera with a Helium sensor, and it has been pretty easy to match the footage.

I haven't been using it all that much for video though, because its recording format is uncompressed cDNG, which isn't particularly convenient. When I do use it, I usually just transcode the footage to a more manageable clip based format rather than take the time to copy it. I used it on one shoot as an A camera because the client didn't want me to bring the Red, and it was very convenient to be able to after recording the interview portion, just pop the camera off of the tripod and start shooting stills. It's clean enough even at relatively high ISOs to deal with low light pretty well. I usually limit it to ISO 3200, but I've gone as far as 5000.

-----------------------------


On Sat, Dec 26, 2020 at 7:44 AM Noel Sterrett <noel@...> wrote:
This tiny full frame 5.9K Bayer sensor L-mount camera shoots 4K Cinema DNG (8 bit internally, 12 bit
with a tiny USB SSD drive attached) and outputs via HDMI to a Blackmagic Video Assist 12G (BRAW) or
Atomos Ninga V (ProRes RAW).

The images I have seen so far are amazing.

Perhaps someone can tell me what's wrong with it?

Happy New Year!


Sigma fp

Noel Sterrett
 

This tiny full frame 5.9K Bayer sensor L-mount camera shoots 4K Cinema DNG (8 bit internally, 12 bit
with a tiny USB SSD drive attached) and outputs via HDMI to a Blackmagic Video Assist 12G (BRAW) or
Atomos Ninga V (ProRes RAW).

The images I have seen so far are amazing.

Perhaps someone can tell me what's wrong with it?

Happy New Year!


Re: Extreme BMD 12K test

Guy Mastrion
 

Great looking stuff. Very subtle beauty at work. 
--
Guy Mastrion
Creative_Director_DP_Professor
www.linkedin.com/in/guymastrion
insta: gmastrion


Re: Extreme BMD 12K test

Noel Sterrett
 


On 12/23/20 4:31 AM, Pawel Achtel ACS wrote:
... because you will be diffraction limiting your Super35mm sensor
Future camera sensors will not necessarily be Super35, Bayer sensor, or CMOS.

Human rod cells are only 2um and there are 120 million of them very densely packed. They can sense a single photon. We have a long way to go.



Re: Extreme BMD 12K test

Video Assist Hungary
 

I had a similar train of thought a few weeks ago when we were using led panel backgrounds for car shots. The array vehicle had wide lenses, which is okay because it’s lenses are closer to the side of the road than the production camera which was placed outside of the car. 

We had a discussion about shooting a much wider angle but that seemed to create problems. First repositioning seemed to create an effect if the camera was tilted up or down. Also i am not sure that the effect of wide lenses where object very close are distorted would be apparent after zooming in

Balazs Rozgonyi
CEO Video Assist Hungary.  


On 2020. Dec 23., at 14:26, davesatin via cml.news <davesatin=aol.com@...> wrote:

Amen. Not to mention the lack of perspective shift
In the blown up frames. There was an article about this in the SMPTE Journal in 1978 or so about shooting in high resolution, 65mm at the time and optically reframing for tight shots. It didn’t work then either. 


From the Mobile IOS device of
Dave Satin
Digital Cinema Engineering LLC
425 East 51st Apt 7A
New York NY 10022
917-951-3536 


Re: Extreme BMD 12K test

davesatin@...
 

Amen. Not to mention the lack of perspective shift
In the blown up frames. There was an article about this in the SMPTE Journal in 1978 or so about shooting in high resolution, 65mm at the time and optically reframing for tight shots. It didn’t work then either. 


From the Mobile IOS device of
Dave Satin
Digital Cinema Engineering LLC
425 East 51st Apt 7A
New York NY 10022
917-951-3536 
_._,_._,_


Re: Extreme BMD 12K test

Pawel Achtel, ACS
 

Ø  There would seem to be a point in sensor resolution where you wouldn't need primes or an optical
zoom at all. Just one very sharp and extremely fast lens.

 

I’ve been filming extremely high resolution content for quite some time.

What you said is a misconception. At those extreme resolutions the CoC is very small and therefore DoF is very thin too. For this reason only one feature in the frame can be in sharp focus unless you are filming a flat wall.

So, you can’t just reframe or digitally zoom any way you like because most features in your frame will be out of focus. In other words, each shot has to be properly framed and focused as sharpness won’t extend through the entire frame most of the time.

 

And, before someone suggests it, for the same reason you can’t just stop down beyond, say f/4.0, because you will be diffraction limiting your Super35mm sensor (size of Airy disc at f/4.0 is 5 µm and diffraction is noticeable when airy disc is larger than about 2x pixel size).

 

Last, but not least: BMD 12K is not particularly high resolution camera. Sensor resolution or recording raster are not the same as spatial frequency that camera can actually reproduce.  This camera features a non-Bayer sensor which reproduces spatial frequencies comparable to approximately 3.5K Bayer sensor – slightly less than most professional 4K+ digital cinema cameras. There is not a single frame in this or previous Geoff’s test that shows more than 2,000 lp/pw (which is what most 4K+ Bayer sensor cameras are able to reproduce).

 

Guys, this is really not rocket science. If you want to discuss sharpness, it is very easy to quantify: just shoot any decent resolution chart with a fast, sharp lens and measure the MTF. The contrast at 2,000 pl/pw and beyond is zero. Or, if that’s too hard, just compare with any 4K, 6K, 8K Bayer sensor camera side-by-side.

 

The proprietary RGBW 12K sensor has completely different purpose. It is not the sharpness. The camera is soft by today’s standards. The purpose of this RGBW sensor is to extend colour gamut and dynamic range. And, the way it works, you can’t have a cake and eat it too. It comes at a cost of resolution because, in order to extend the dynamic range, a much larger group of pixels is used for demosaicing than in Bayer pattern.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc.

“Sharp to the Edge”

 

ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417

Website: www.achtel.com

Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747)

Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia

Address: RA 913 Coles Bay Rd., Coles Bay, TAS 7215, Australia

Location: S 42° 0'14.40"S, E 148°14'47.13"

Email: Pawel.Achtel@...

Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel

Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel

Skype: Pawel.Achtel

._,_._,_


Re: Extreme BMD 12K test

Noel Sterrett
 

On 12/16/20 4:16 AM, Geoff Boyle wrote:
The manual zoom mentioned above was applied after stabilisation.
There would seem to be a point in sensor resolution where you wouldn't need primes or an optical
zoom at all. Just one very sharp and extremely fast lens.

261 - 280 of 1984