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Re: Integrity - was Curves and Bit Depth

Mitch Gross
 

On Dec 29, 2020, at 1:03 AM, Pawel Achtel ACS <pawel.achtel@...> wrote:

often the biggest limitation of all is the attitude that people have towards their work


It’s not that we don’t all want to do our very best work, it’s that we have to perform within a system with others. There can be completely justifiable reasons (such as time) that a client or post does not want to work one way and prefers to work another. We all have to work together.

Hey, I’d like to only shoot during magic hour. Three shots a day in my perfect light. Sorry but your one day shoot is going to take a week because I’m unwilling to compromise my artistic integrity.

We all make choices when appropriate. Shooting uncompressed RAW is lovely but often not necessary.


Mitch Gross
New York


Re: Integrity - was Curves and Bit Depth

Pawel Achtel, ACS
 

Ø  [Brian Heller] - As David Watkin said: “If they paid me to, I would shoot with the lens cap on.”

Ø   

Ø  Of course, RAW is theoretically “better”, but so what.  For instance,

Ø   if the optics are not 1st rate, all the data in the world isn’t going to help.

I read some of those comments with great sadness. Is this how low our industry has gone?

Not only are those comments completely irrelevant to discussion about pros and cons of Sigma fp (both technical and practical), but also highlight that often the biggest limitation of all is the attitude that people have towards their work.

Integrity is important. And, yes, I have declined many jobs which insisted on constraints that would result in an outcome that I wouldn’t be proud of.

There were also productions that were happy for me to shoot with a GoPro - I turned up on the set with a top-of-the-range setup at no additional charge and put as much effort as I would, if it was a hundred million dollar production.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc.

“Sharp to the Edge”

 

ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417

Website: www.achtel.com

Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747)

Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia

Address: RA 913 Coles Bay Rd., Coles Bay, TAS 7215, Australia

Location: S 42° 0'14.40"S, E 148°14'47.13"

Email: Pawel.Achtel@...

Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel

Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel

Skype: Pawel.Achtel

,_


Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Adrian Jebef
 

 Audio Sound Mixers are driving Sprinter Cargo Van”

That’s cause Sound Guyz know what da fuk is up! Straight Fire Paul! KEEP SLAPPIN’!

-AJ
camera trainee







On Dec 28, 2020, at 5:20 PM, Paul Lawrence <paul@...> wrote:

Audio Sound Mixers are driving Sprinter Cargo Van


Paul Andrew Lawrence, Your Sound Guy


Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Paul Lawrence
 

Audio Sound Mixers are driving Sprinter Cargo Van


Paul Andrew Lawrence, Your Sound Guy


Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Miguel Bunster
 

Mic Drop

Miguel bunster

On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 at 16:55 Mitch Gross <mitchgrosscml@...> wrote:
On Dec 28, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Mark Weingartner, ASC via cml.news <vfxmark=me.com@...> wrote:

Most of us DPs are driving Porsches with the occasional Maserati or Ferrari - Camrys are for writers :-)



Mark wins line of the day.

Mitch Gross
New York

--
Miguel Bunster
www.miguelbunster.com
LA - (323) 963-4397
Chile - 7.9652894


Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Noel Sterrett
 

On 12/28/20 5:51 PM, Brian Heller wrote:
I would love to see any DIT or DP (without foreknowledge of the process) to view a final product
and identify the camera or lens or the Codec or the bit depth or the post path taken on a given film.
When I see compression, blown taillights, yellow peaking, other artifacts, I just know I don't like
whatever camera/lens/codec/process/grader produced it.

A RAW workflow doesn't solve all problems, but it can fix quite a few of them.


Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Brian Heller
 

What Mark and Mitch have said :-)

I am totally camera, sensor, Ganma curve, Bit Depth, RAW/compressed, post path agnostic.

As David Watkin said: “If they paid me to, I would shoot with the lens cap on.”

Of course, RAW is theoretically “better”, but so what.  For instance,
 if the optics are not 1st rate, all the data in the world isn’t going to help.

I would love to see any DIT or DP (without foreknowledge of the process) to view a final product and identify the camera or lens or the Codec or the bit depth or the post path taken on a given film.

Brian Heller
IA 600 DP


On Dec 28, 2020, at 2:59 AM, Adrian Jebef via cml.news <adrianjebef=yahoo.com@...> wrote:

lol

I swear these threads always derail into a bunch of old farts yelling at each other to slow down. Like, “Don’t push the Camery past 65 or Momma gonna find out!” It seems y’all know best: let off the gas.

Sorry some of you don’t care. Sorry Sigma released a camera that is too powerful. Sorry Geoff doesn’t have any DIT friends with a new computer. And sorry if I offend some fragile DP ego. Oh well that’s the film biz for ya. Ya can’t have it all. Maybe Sigma will add HD ProRes Log recording in the mark ii.

Adrian Jebef
DIT







On Dec 27, 2020, at 10:46 PM, Maxwell Geoffrey <maxwell@...> wrote:


Pawel,

     While do agree with most of what you’re saying from a technical standpoint, I think you’re missing the point that Mitch and Geoff are making.
     Firstly, while uncompressed RAW is certainly a gold standard in terms of getting the absolute highest quality recording from a given camera sensor, the files are bigger and do require more attention to be paid to them in post to ensure that the images shot on set are what actually gets delivered in a final deliverable.  Compressed (non-RAW) recordings will work seamlessly in a REC 709 workflow with almost any NLE and grading application, simply requiring a show LUT or power grade to achieve a finished image.  No attention needs to be paid to ensuring that the proper metadata for ISO, white balance, and gamma curve are being used for each shot, and unlike RAW, the shots don’t require any post production noise reduction.  All of this is completely unfeasible on shoots with faster turnarounds, regardless of budget, but especially on lower budget productions.
     Moreover, the space savings of not shooting RAW, no matter how insignificant they may seem on paper or how cheap storage media becomes, ultimately translate to more shooting time on set, less money spent on drives for backups, or both.  Personally, I’d much rather work with uncompressed RAW that was encoded as 12 bit log, because the 25% smaller files compared to 16 bit linear mean that I get a fourth take on a card if I need it or more later if I don’t, and frankly, I can’t think of a single time when I haven’t been able to roll off the highlights in a grade to my liking because a few extra pixels were encoded at (for example) code value 4071 instead of whatever the 16 bit linear equivalent of 4071.25 may have been.
     In a realistic situation, shooting a short turnaround project on a camera like the C300 Mark III and choosing to shoot 10 bit XF-AVC at 410Mbps over the 12 bit 1Gbps compressed RAW nets me 144% more recording time and a 59% savings in media costs, and if I want higher quality, I can shoot at 810Mbps and still net 12% more recording time and offer a space savings of 19%.  Both of these options save the headache of shooting RAW and then having to oversee the entire post production color management pipeline, which is frankly nonexistent on this kind of project.
     To wrap up on less of a technical context, while I do agree with you that DPs should definitely understand the technicalities of the entire image creation and finishing pipelines, those technicalities often don’t matter nearly as much as we sometimes like to think they do.  As much as technical testing may be a part of our job in pre-production, what ultimately gets seen and gets us hired again are the images we shoot on set, and if they don’t move people or serve the story well, then who cares what bit depth or codec the source files were?  Just my thoughts.

Best Wishes,

Maxwell Geoffrey
DP | Colorist
New York

On Dec 27, 2020, at 18:00, Pawel Achtel ACS <pawel.achtel@...> wrote:



Ø  [Mitch Gross] Uncompressed RAW is the best quality — so what? It is a more burdensome workflow because it does not deliver an immediate result in the form most clients want and it requires more memory which means more time in transfers.

You are confusing two things: Log curve (which saves very little space) and compression (which requires additional compression in camera and decompression in post).

 

Log, or let’s call it in general: input curve, can easily travel as metadata or be applied in edit/viewing environment. There is negligible overhead of doing so. It doesn’t need to be “backed-in”. The size benefit of log raw vs. linear raw is relatively minor.

 

Compressed raw requires more powerful hardware (GPU), not less. In particular on a notebook. But, Sigma fp offers both compressed formats and uncompressed DNG. You can chose. Compatibility wise: uncompressed Cinema DNG can be readily used in any NLE and workflow tools and it is more compatible than any compressed raw. For example, BRAW is not widely supported on anything but Resolve and even Resolve requires expensive GPU. RED RAW requires decent GPU too.

Ø  [Geoff Boyle] Of course we need objective measurements but ultimately we work in a world where taste is more important than fact.

Yes, but if we don’t change it no one else will. It amazes me how many DOPs do not know how to produce or read MTF graph or measure dynamic range or measure colour accuracy or gamut of a camera. As part of the industry we need to stick to the fact and objectivity. It is important.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc.

“Sharp to the Edge”

 

ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417

Website: www.achtel.com

Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747)

Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia

Address: RA 913 Coles Bay Rd., Coles Bay, TAS 7215, Australia

Location: S 42° 0'14.40"S, E 148°14'47.13"

Email: Pawel.Achtel@...

Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel

Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel

Skype: Pawel.Achtel


Re: Sigma fp

Noel Sterrett
 

On 12/28/20 5:53 AM, Paul Curtis wrote:
Uncompressed DNG is fine for a lot of cases and when you offload you can offload via SlimRAW
straight to lossless compressed DNG and save quite a bit
You can save a great deal. Uncompressed 12bit 4K DCI output of the Sigma fp is ~ 240Mb/sec. That's ~
1 TB/hour. If your use slimRAW, you can copy that uncompressed RAW to two drives simultaneously
(with error checking), compress from 0 to 7:1, and still be undeveloped RAW.

Compression at 7:1 is ~150Mb/s. That's a date rate we were doing 20 years ago. So it's not really
about data rate, the real question is whether or not to stay RAW (including various compression
levels), or bake it with some other compression scheme.

I see no reason to be in a hurry to bake.

The entire workflow, including proxies which slimRAW can create, could be RAW but just at different
compression levels. No doubt efx would want uncompressed, but editing could do with 3:1, mix with
5:1, and producers get the highest number, 7:1.

Many problems could be avoided by everyone staying in the same RAW sandbox.


Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Mitch Gross
 

Ok, now we ARE starting to sound like old farts. 

Mitch “Get off my lawn!” Gross
New York


Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Tom Tcimpidis
 

We are in a gated community with private roads so you CAN legally drive them here.  😊 

>>> We retired types would drive golf carts if they were street legal.


--
-Tom

Semi-retired DIT/VC and Doer Of All Things Technical
TGT Technologies LLC
Greater Atlanta, Nashville and D.C. areas


Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Bob Kertesz
 

On 12/28/2020 1:01:15 PM, Noel Sterrett wrote:
On 12/28/20 3:57 PM, Tom Tcimpidis wrote:
And we techie types drive Teslas…
We writers drive Bolts.

We retired types would drive golf carts if they were street legal.

-Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California

Mostly Retired Engineer, Video Controller, and Live Compositor Extraordinaire.

High quality images for almost five decades - whether you've wanted them or not.©

* * * * * * * * * *



Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Noel Sterrett
 

On 12/28/20 3:57 PM, Tom Tcimpidis wrote:
And we techie types drive Teslas…
We writers drive Bolts.


Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Tom Tcimpidis
 

And we techie types drive Teslas…

 

On Dec 28, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Mark Weingartner, ASC via cml.news <vfxmark=me.com@...> wrote:
Most of us DPs are driving Porsches with the occasional Maserati or Ferrari - Camrys are for writers :-)




--
-Tom

Semi-retired DIT/VC and Doer Of All Things Technical
TGT Technologies LLC
Greater Atlanta, Nashville and D.C. areas


Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Mitch Gross
 

On Dec 28, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Mark Weingartner, ASC via cml.news <vfxmark=me.com@...> wrote:

Most of us DPs are driving Porsches with the occasional Maserati or Ferrari - Camrys are for writers :-)



Mark wins line of the day.

Mitch Gross
New York


Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Mark Weingartner, ASC
 

It is worth remembering:
1. we try not to be openly insulting on CML… it does not foster an environment of participation
This is not quite the same as some other groups some of us participate in.

2. This is an international forum with many people in many markets… some of us with quite a few decades of fighting political battles that appear to be technical ones, and vice versa.  Notwithstanding the high regard many Digital Imaging Technicians hold themselves, the fact remains that it is the Director of Photography who is subject to the pressures from Production and Post, and who has to weigh the merits of which choices to push for and how hard…  in many different departments.  DPs don’t have the luxury of blaming their DIT for choosing a workflow that displeases someone or costs money that wasn’t budgeted for - ultimately the blame - and consequences - are laid at our door.

3. It is worth considering the possibility that many of us "fragile old fart DPs” actually know the markets we work in and know “what the traffic will bear.”  Some of us old-timers are actually the people who push the tech forward pretty hard.

That said, a few years ago I lost a job because I insisted that we shoot it correctly, which in this case meant using three Alexa 65s,  and in the end, the Download/black level restoration/lay-off to drives on distant location time and personnel costs…    …ended up costing me the job.   They shot it another way… and it showed on the screen - but someone else took home the paycheck.   

There is still a lot of content being released in HD…    and there are lots and lots of jobs that we can light or control well enough to be able to make our exposure choices on-set (the way we did for those few years that this industry survived before the invention of DITs) that benefit from a lighter-weight log-based encoding.  Some of those jobs are the ones that might be reaching for the Sigma as a solution for something.

Most of us DPs are driving Porsches with the occasional Maserati or Ferrari - Camrys are for writers :-)

Mark Weingartner
Los Angeles-based DP
Intermittent List-mum






On 27Dec, 2020, at 23:56 15PM, Adrian Jebef via cml.news <adrianjebef=yahoo.com@...> wrote:

lol

I swear these threads always derail into a bunch of old farts yelling at each other to slow down. Like, “Don’t push the Camery past 65 or Momma gonna find out!” It seems y’all know best: let off the gas.


Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Clark Graff
 

Well said.


The purist in me says raw all the time, and the more evolved realist knows when to pull those punches, without sacrificing one ounce of artistic integrity.

Clark Graff

VFX Supervisor, Production Designer, DIT, Propellerhead

SoCal.

 


Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Theo Stanley
 

I swear these threads always derail into a bunch of old farts yelling at each other to slow down.
I think you are missing their message, or not able to see and think beyond yours.

As a youngish fart who is concerned with the entire dynamics of production and post, I think it makes sense to know the full value of every decision that sets up your project flow.

I understand the notion and part of me applauds people that rail for maximum resolution and raw files all the time as that represents some technical level of aiming to be master of their craft, and the purity of that as a concept.

But I think there is an evolved experiential viewpoint in knowing the right moment when to burden and stress a production and post workflow with that approach.

When you get to the end product, and arrive at the same place, an image without compromise, but walked a lighter more efficient path to get there, and you do this comparatively again and again, there is certainly something smarter in knowing what you can get away with, as you truly know your tools, and when it makes sense to insist on raw, or when you can lead things to the same end with less burden.

The purist in me says raw all the time, and the more evolved realist knows when to pull those punches, without sacrificing one ounce of artistic integrity.

If I just stayed in my corner and did not think holistically, or care about the impact of these decisions down the line, I would be more comfortable with the purist approach.

Theo Stanley
Director / Dp
Nyc

mobile device

On Dec 28, 2020, at 2:56 AM, Adrian Jebef via cml.news <adrianjebef=yahoo.com@...> wrote:


Re: Data offload costs (was Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp)

Guy Mastrion
 

I just had a discussion last night with a producer after spending a few hours baby sitting nearly a full TB download with more on the way. Would have been so much more efficient and less expensive to ship an SSD drive. I’m shooting a few scenes tomorrow as an insert for a public relations piece then pulling various sources files into an edit and shipping back to the producer.  I’ve got a couple of fresh SSD’s coming in today to ship the project on once complete.

--
Guy Mastrion
Creative_Director_DP_Professor
www.linkedin.com/in/guymastrion
insta: gmastrion


Re: Sigma fp

Noel Sterrett
 

On 12/28/20 8:57 AM, Mitch Gross wrote:
But I think that most of the time I would prefer to connect the Sigma FP to a small 5” Atomos or
BMD recorder to capture a compressed RAW that’s far more reasonable to deal with than an
uncompressed RAW file. Even on a gimbal you need a monitor to see what you’re doing.
I agree. I just bought a BMD both for record and monitor. But I also got a few T5's for uncompressed
green things.

Nice that the camera can do both.


Re: Sigma fp

Mitch Gross
 

I will add that I am certainly not anti-RAW. There are certainly times where it is the right tool for the job. But I think that most of the time I would prefer to connect the Sigma FP to a small 5” Atomos or BMD recorder to capture a compressed RAW that’s far more reasonable to deal with than an uncompressed RAW file. Even on a gimbal you need a monitor to see what you’re doing. 

Mitch Gross
New York

On Dec 28, 2020, at 8:11 AM, Noel Sterrett <noel@...> wrote:

On 12/28/20 5:53 AM, Paul Curtis wrote:
... the fp is just a tiny sensor in a box, and as i understand there is no headroom for
compression onboard.
Exactly.

It will always be the case that processing is faster/better/cheaper off camera than on. If you want
to record standard compression schemes in real time, just add an Atomos or BMD recorder. If you can
wait until offload, then compress, if you like, during transfer.

I have long felt that we will get to the point that, like the eye, the sensor and lens will become
one. The Sigma fp is a step in that direction.

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