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Re: Venice evaluation

Noel Sterrett
 

On 03/24/2018 03:07 PM, Colin Elves wrote:

Isn’t the danger here that you’re, in part, you are now comparing how good the manufacturer’s software is at converting into EXRs?

These cameras are all Bayer pattern sensors. De-Bayering from RAW is arguably the most important step in the process. It's analogous to developing film, but can be done multiple times in multiple ways, and also be redone.

Ideally, Bayer pattern developing software would allow selection of multiple algorithms as well as control over the individual pattern elements. Resolve only offers two de-Bayer choices: Resolve and Sony, but some adjustments can be made to the RAW values before conversion.

EXR's are useful particularly for transport between programs, but for camera comparisons I would prefer to compare RAW with RAW.

Cheers.

--

Noel Sterrett Admit One Pictures info@...


Re: Venice evaluation

alister@...
 


I don’t think BlackMagic are using a Sony SDK for Venice as I don’t think the SDK is ready yet. I suspect they are using whatever it is they created for the F55 (which is not based on a Sony SDK). I’ve always been able to get less noisy images from Sony’s raw and X-OCN by using Sony’s Raw Viewer rather than ACES or any other process within Resolve in general. There is certainly more in the shadows than revealed by the standard Resolve IDT. The Blackmagic IDT just doesn’t quite seem right. Having said that I do use Resolve to grade my Sony footage, mainly because it’s accessible and what a lot of other people use.

My understanding is that BlackMagic roll their own IDT’s rather than using manufacturers IDT’s or SDK's. One benefit is that Resolve often supports new formats before anything else. The down side is that they might not always be properly optimised as per the manufacturers specs.

Geoff I am assuming though that you used Raw Viewer to create the ACES EXR’s? But even this process will have certain characteristics that may not be in the original files. Plus, while you might be able to replicate similar adjustments in your grading software you no longer have the ability to dig into the metadata and de-bayer controls. 

Alister Chapman

DoP - Stereographer
UK Mobile +44 7711 152226
US Mobile +1(216)298-1977


www.xdcam-user.com    1.5 million hits, 100,000 visits from over 45,000 unique visitors every month!  Film and Video production techniques, reviews and news.




Re: Venice evaluation

Colin Elves
 

Ah. This is interesting. 

Would this be a level playing field though? 

Isn’t the danger here that you’re, in part, you are now comparing how good the manufacturer’s software is at converting into EXRs? Rather than the camera’s themselves. 

Also: If the manufacturer’s software (or SDK in grading software) is a standard part of the workflow wouldn’t that make it more level? So providing the raw frames would be more representative of how they are used in the ‘real world’. Surely we’re assessing the whole image chain, not just the first part? 

Just playing devil’s advocate here. 

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
Berlin/London




On 24 Mar 2018, at 14:02, Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote:

The idea is to have a level playing field.


Re: Venice evaluation

Nick Shaw
 

It would be interesting to compare what the raw controls can dig out of the X-OCN to what can be achieved using Base Grade in Baselight 5.0. That responds in many ways more like raw controls than traditional grading operators. There is a limit to what can be done differently "in the deBayer". Most raw processing is in fact done with RGB (or sometimes XYZ) image data, and could be reproduced with the appropriate maths applied to ACES linear data.

ACES EXRs could be loaded into the free version of Prelight to test this.

Nick Shaw
Workflow Consultant
Antler Post
U.K.

On 24 Mar 2018, at 13:38, alister@... wrote:

All I am saying is that in Resolve, Lift/Gamma/Gain offset etc in ACES yield markedly different results to using the metadata sliders and I personally find I am able to pull more useable data out of the shadows and highlights using the metadata sliders than using the normal grading controls.


Re: Venice evaluation

Geoff Boyle
 

Don't use LGG use log controls in ACES in Resolve

Cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
Cinematographer
EU based
+31 (0)637155076

On 24 Mar 2018, at 14:39, alister@... wrote:

On 24 Mar 2018, at 13:02, Geoff Boyle < geoff.cml@...> wrote:

The idea is to have a level playing field.

All cameras are output to 16bit EXR in ACES AP0 using manufacturers software where possible.

Are you suggesting that the Venice outputs more data than ACES can handle?

All I am saying is that in Resolve, Lift/Gamma/Gain offset etc in ACES yield markedly different results to using the metadata sliders and I personally find I am able to pull more useable data out of the shadows and highlights using the metadata sliders than using the normal grading controls. I haven’t tested this with other cameras in depth so don’t know whether this is a Venice specific thing. I’m not surprised by this as there may be benefits or changes to the way the de-bayer algorithm operates depending on whether the exposure is being offset or not. I don’t know what secret sauce is, or is not happening inside the IDT.

Maybe this is because I’m not a colourist and am doing something wrong, maybe it’s down to some quirks in the way Resolve implements ACES or performs the IDT on the Venice material, I honestly don’t know. I do know that both Pablo and I have sen some very odd behaviour in Resolve colour managed and ACES workflow transforms that neither of us can explain.

I understand the level playing field approach, but I would urge caution as that is only a level playing field if every IDT for every camera is perfect and totally lossless. Myself, I would rather just see the original files as they come from the camera as this is an important part of understanding how easy it is going to be to work with that camera and how it is going to behave in a real world scenario. Not everyone is going to convert to EXR first. Others may disagree with this.

You are damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

Alister Chapman

DoP - Stereographer
UK Mobile +44 7711 152226
US Mobile  +1(216)298-1977


www.xdcam-user.com    1.5 million hits, 100,000 visits from over 45,000 unique visitors every month!  Film and Video production techniques, reviews and news.


Re: Sony VENICE camera - word on the street

alister@...
 


On 24 Mar 2018, at 13:26, alfonso parra <info@...> wrote:

From our experience filming in Cartagena, the dynamic range is about 1 1/2 more compared to the f55, especially because of the improvement in the signal-to-noise ratio, but I would highlight two important improvements, the first is that the way in which the detail disappears in the high lights is much softer than previous cameras and second that skin tone is now more natural, with more texture and with a great gradations of color with a lot of subtlety.

I would agree with this. In particular there is something very pleasing about the way the extreme highlights look that is nicer than the F55. I don’t really see that big an improvement in over exposure range at the base ISO, but the top end of the top stop just looks more natural for some reason. The main DR improvement is in the shadows where the low noise allows you to really dig a long way into the darkest parts of the image.  Or rate the camera at 800 or 1000 ISO to really extend the highlights.

Alister Chapman

DoP - Stereographer
UK Mobile +44 7711 152226
US Mobile +1(216)298-1977


www.xdcam-user.com    1.5 million hits, 100,000 visits from over 45,000 unique visitors every month!  Film and Video production techniques, reviews and news.


Re: Venice evaluation

alister@...
 


On 24 Mar 2018, at 13:02, Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote:

The idea is to have a level playing field.

All cameras are output to 16bit EXR in ACES AP0 using manufacturers software where possible.

Are you suggesting that the Venice outputs more data than ACES can handle?

All I am saying is that in Resolve, Lift/Gamma/Gain offset etc in ACES yield markedly different results to using the metadata sliders and I personally find I am able to pull more useable data out of the shadows and highlights using the metadata sliders than using the normal grading controls. I haven’t tested this with other cameras in depth so don’t know whether this is a Venice specific thing. I’m not surprised by this as there may be benefits or changes to the way the de-bayer algorithm operates depending on whether the exposure is being offset or not. I don’t know what secret sauce is, or is not happening inside the IDT.

Maybe this is because I’m not a colourist and am doing something wrong, maybe it’s down to some quirks in the way Resolve implements ACES or performs the IDT on the Venice material, I honestly don’t know. I do know that both Pablo and I have sen some very odd behaviour in Resolve colour managed and ACES workflow transforms that neither of us can explain.

I understand the level playing field approach, but I would urge caution as that is only a level playing field if every IDT for every camera is perfect and totally lossless. Myself, I would rather just see the original files as they come from the camera as this is an important part of understanding how easy it is going to be to work with that camera and how it is going to behave in a real world scenario. Not everyone is going to convert to EXR first. Others may disagree with this.

You are damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

Alister Chapman

DoP - Stereographer
UK Mobile +44 7711 152226
US Mobile +1(216)298-1977


www.xdcam-user.com    1.5 million hits, 100,000 visits from over 45,000 unique visitors every month!  Film and Video production techniques, reviews and news.


Re: Sony VENICE camera - word on the street

alfonso parra
 

From our experience filming in Cartagena, the dynamic range is about 1 1/2 more compared to the f55, especially because of the improvement in the signal-to-noise ratio, but I would highlight two important improvements, the first is that the way in which the detail disappears in the high lights is much softer than previous cameras and second that skin tone is now more natural, with more texture and with a great gradations of color with a lot of subtlety.
We recorded in X-OCN ST corrected in Davinci  in ACES leaving in 2020 PQ 1000 nits and also in 709.


Regards

 Alfonso Parra AEC, ADFC
www.alfonsoparra.com
Tel Colombia 57 3115798776
Tel Spain 34 639 109 309




Re: Sony VENICE camera - word on the street

Jeremey Shelton
 

But sometimes you want the path of least resistance from A to B; that’s why I asked the question of how they compare “out of the box” in both color and DR / rolloff. At the price point these cameras come in I would think you’d want the fewest “workarounds” possible but perhaps that’s just me and my particular workflow. 

--
- Jeremey


Re: Venice evaluation

Geoff Boyle
 

The idea is to have a level playing field.

All cameras are output to 16bit EXR in ACES AP0 using manufacturers software where possible.

Are you suggesting that the Venice outputs more data than ACES can handle?

Cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
Cinematographer
EU based
+31 (0)637155076

On 24 Mar 2018, at 13:58, alister@... wrote:
Its a shame these weren’t saved as original raw or X-OCN frames (You can extract single frames using Sony’s Raw Viewer). Then you could use the metadata tools in Resolve to adjust the exposure, lift, gamma, gain, shadows, mid and highlight levels used for the de-bayer. I’ve found that Venice material has a lot of stuff way down in the shadows that is easiest to recover using the metadata shadow and lift controls. Same with the extreme highlight range. You get very nice exposure shifts simply by using the metadata ISO control.


Alister Chapman

DoP - Stereographer
UK Mobile +44 7711 152226
US Mobile  +1(216)298-1977


www.xdcam-user.com    1.5 million hits, 100,000 visits from over 45,000 unique visitors every month!  Film and Video production techniques, reviews and news.

















On 24 Mar 2018, at 11:28, Mark Kenfield < mark@...> wrote:

Thanks Colin, Geoff and Nick,

Both of those methods seem to work a treat.  

Using the OFX tool Colour Space Transform in YRGB mode, lets me get back to SLOG3/Sgamut3.cine (or close enough at least).

And ACEScct + no IDT + rec709 ODT brings me to a neutral Rec709 space in ACES.

Cheers,

Mark Kenfield
Cinematographer

0400 044 500

On 24 March 2018 at 22:19, Nick Shaw   <nick@...>  wrote:
If you don't want to work in ACES mode, you can use the ResolveFX Color Space Transform to convert to e.g. S-Log3 / S-Gamut3.Cine, so you can, for example, use a LUT designed for that.  

You will need to convert both the gamma (linear to S-Log3) and gamut (ACES AP 0 to S-Gamut3.Cine). ACES also has a different white point, so you will need to apply a chromatic adaptation from ACES white (~D60) to D65. I am not in front of a Resolve system right now, so I don't know how (or if) the Color Space Transform effect handles white point adaptation.

Nick Shaw
Workflow Consultant  
Antler Post
U.K.  
On 24 Mar 2018, at 10:16, Mark Kenfield < mark@...> wrote:

I've pulled the EXRs into Davinci to have a play around with them. But I haven't worked with EXRs before, and I'm struggling to convert them from Linear, back to a conventional Sony SLOG3 gamma that I can then work from.





Re: Venice evaluation

alister@...
 

Its a shame these weren’t saved as original raw or X-OCN frames (You can extract single frames using Sony’s Raw Viewer). Then you could use the metadata tools in Resolve to adjust the exposure, lift, gamma, gain, shadows, mid and highlight levels used for the de-bayer. I’ve found that Venice material has a lot of stuff way down in the shadows that is easiest to recover using the metadata shadow and lift controls. Same with the extreme highlight range. You get very nice exposure shifts simply by using the metadata ISO control.


Alister Chapman

DoP - Stereographer
UK Mobile +44 7711 152226
US Mobile +1(216)298-1977


www.xdcam-user.com    1.5 million hits, 100,000 visits from over 45,000 unique visitors every month!  Film and Video production techniques, reviews and news.

















On 24 Mar 2018, at 11:28, Mark Kenfield <mark@...> wrote:

Thanks Colin, Geoff and Nick,

Both of those methods seem to work a treat. 

Using the OFX tool Colour Space Transform in YRGB mode, lets me get back to SLOG3/Sgamut3.cine (or close enough at least).

And ACEScct + no IDT + rec709 ODT brings me to a neutral Rec709 space in ACES.

Cheers,

Mark Kenfield
Cinematographer

0400 044 500

On 24 March 2018 at 22:19, Nick Shaw <nick@...> wrote:
If you don't want to work in ACES mode, you can use the ResolveFX Color Space Transform to convert to e.g. S-Log3 / S-Gamut3.Cine, so you can, for example, use a LUT designed for that. 

You will need to convert both the gamma (linear to S-Log3) and gamut (ACES AP 0 to S-Gamut3.Cine). ACES also has a different white point, so you will need to apply a chromatic adaptation from ACES white (~D60) to D65. I am not in front of a Resolve system right now, so I don't know how (or if) the Color Space Transform effect handles white point adaptation.

Nick Shaw
Workflow Consultant 
Antler Post
U.K. 
On 24 Mar 2018, at 10:16, Mark Kenfield <mark@...> wrote:

I've pulled the EXRs into Davinci to have a play around with them. But I haven't worked with EXRs before, and I'm struggling to convert them from Linear, back to a conventional Sony SLOG3 gamma that I can then work from.





Re: Venice evaluation

Mark Kenfield
 

Thanks Colin, Geoff and Nick,

Both of those methods seem to work a treat.

Using the OFX tool Colour Space Transform in YRGB mode, lets me get back to SLOG3/Sgamut3.cine (or close enough at least).

And ACEScct + no IDT + rec709 ODT brings me to a neutral Rec709 space in ACES.

Cheers,

Mark Kenfield
Cinematographer

0400 044 500

On 24 March 2018 at 22:19, Nick Shaw <nick@...> wrote:
If you don't want to work in ACES mode, you can use the ResolveFX Color Space Transform to convert to e.g. S-Log3 / S-Gamut3.Cine, so you can, for example, use a LUT designed for that.

You will need to convert both the gamma (linear to S-Log3) and gamut (ACES AP 0 to S-Gamut3.Cine). ACES also has a different white point, so you will need to apply a chromatic adaptation from ACES white (~D60) to D65. I am not in front of a Resolve system right now, so I don't know how (or if) the Color Space Transform effect handles white point adaptation.

Nick Shaw
Workflow Consultant
Antler Post
U.K.
On 24 Mar 2018, at 10:16, Mark Kenfield <mark@...> wrote:

I've pulled the EXRs into Davinci to have a play around with them. But I haven't worked with EXRs before, and I'm struggling to convert them from Linear, back to a conventional Sony SLOG3 gamma that I can then work from.



Re: Venice evaluation

Nick Shaw
 

If you don't want to work in ACES mode, you can use the ResolveFX Color Space Transform to convert to e.g. S-Log3 / S-Gamut3.Cine, so you can, for example, use a LUT designed for that.

You will need to convert both the gamma (linear to S-Log3) and gamut (ACES AP 0 to S-Gamut3.Cine). ACES also has a different white point, so you will need to apply a chromatic adaptation from ACES white (~D60) to D65. I am not in front of a Resolve system right now, so I don't know how (or if) the Color Space Transform effect handles white point adaptation.

Nick Shaw
Workflow Consultant
Antler Post
U.K.

On 24 Mar 2018, at 10:16, Mark Kenfield <mark@...> wrote:

I've pulled the EXRs into Davinci to have a play around with them. But I haven't worked with EXRs before, and I'm struggling to convert them from Linear, back to a conventional Sony SLOG3 gamma that I can then work from.


Re: Venice evaluation

Geoff Boyle
 

No, the files are ACES linear

Cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
Cinematographer
EU based
+31 (0)637155076

On 24 Mar 2018, at 11:20, Colin Elves <colin@...> wrote:
Try using DaVinci Colour Managed instead of ACES, then go into the OXF panel in the colour tab and add a colour space transform from linear to Slog3

(I haven’t looked at them myself by the way, but this should work).

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
London/Berlin.




On 24 Mar 2018, at 11:16, Mark Kenfield < mark@...> wrote:

Hey Geoff,

I've pulled the EXRs into Davinci to have a play around with them. But I haven't worked with EXRs before, and I'm struggling to convert them from Linear, back to a conventional Sony SLOG3 gamma that I can then work from.

I've been trying different ACES IDTs, and the built-in Linear conversion LUTs in Davinci without success.

I'm sure it's something obvious I'm missing (and I imagine there are plenty of others on here without any EXR experience), so I was wondering if you could give us a quick how-to guide on delinearizing linear in Davinci? (a semi-serious googling of the issue is yet to yield sweet relief). 

Cheers,

Mark Kenfield
Cinematographer
Melbourne

0400 044 500

On 22 March 2018 at 18:48, Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote:

The EXR’s of 4K & 6K at ISO 500 are now available, link at www.cinematography.net

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Zoetermeer

www.gboyle.co.uk

+31 (0) 637 155 076

 

 




Re: Venice evaluation

Geoff Boyle
 

No probs,

No IDT Resolve uses the Sony SDK directly.

So ACEScct no IDT 709 ODT you're fixed!

Try using offset only to correct exposure.

Cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
Cinematographer
EU based
+31 (0)637155076

On 24 Mar 2018, at 11:16, Mark Kenfield <mark@...> wrote:
Hey Geoff,

I've pulled the EXRs into Davinci to have a play around with them. But I haven't worked with EXRs before, and I'm struggling to convert them from Linear, back to a conventional Sony SLOG3 gamma that I can then work from.

I've been trying different ACES IDTs, and the built-in Linear conversion LUTs in Davinci without success.

I'm sure it's something obvious I'm missing (and I imagine there are plenty of others on here without any EXR experience), so I was wondering if you could give us a quick how-to guide on delinearizing linear in Davinci? (a semi-serious googling of the issue is yet to yield sweet relief). 

Cheers,

Mark Kenfield
Cinematographer
Melbourne

0400 044 500

On 22 March 2018 at 18:48, Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote:

The EXR’s of 4K & 6K at ISO 500 are now available, link at www.cinematography.net

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Zoetermeer

www.gboyle.co.uk

+31 (0) 637 155 076

 

 




Re: Venice evaluation

Colin Elves
 

Try using DaVinci Colour Managed instead of ACES, then go into the OXF panel in the colour tab and add a colour space transform from linear to Slog3

(I haven’t looked at them myself by the way, but this should work).

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
London/Berlin.




On 24 Mar 2018, at 11:16, Mark Kenfield <mark@...> wrote:

Hey Geoff,

I've pulled the EXRs into Davinci to have a play around with them. But I haven't worked with EXRs before, and I'm struggling to convert them from Linear, back to a conventional Sony SLOG3 gamma that I can then work from.

I've been trying different ACES IDTs, and the built-in Linear conversion LUTs in Davinci without success.

I'm sure it's something obvious I'm missing (and I imagine there are plenty of others on here without any EXR experience), so I was wondering if you could give us a quick how-to guide on delinearizing linear in Davinci? (a semi-serious googling of the issue is yet to yield sweet relief). 

Cheers,

Mark Kenfield
Cinematographer
Melbourne

0400 044 500

On 22 March 2018 at 18:48, Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote:

The EXR’s of 4K & 6K at ISO 500 are now available, link at www.cinematography.net

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Zoetermeer

www.gboyle.co.uk

+31 (0) 637 155 076

 

 




Re: Venice evaluation

Mark Kenfield
 

Hey Geoff,

I've pulled the EXRs into Davinci to have a play around with them. But I haven't worked with EXRs before, and I'm struggling to convert them from Linear, back to a conventional Sony SLOG3 gamma that I can then work from.

I've been trying different ACES IDTs, and the built-in Linear conversion LUTs in Davinci without success.

I'm sure it's something obvious I'm missing (and I imagine there are plenty of others on here without any EXR experience), so I was wondering if you could give us a quick how-to guide on delinearizing linear in Davinci? (a semi-serious googling of the issue is yet to yield sweet relief). 

Cheers,

Mark Kenfield
Cinematographer
Melbourne

0400 044 500

On 22 March 2018 at 18:48, Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote:

The EXR’s of 4K & 6K at ISO 500 are now available, link at www.cinematography.net

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Zoetermeer

www.gboyle.co.uk

+31 (0) 637 155 076

 

 




Re: Venice evaluation

alister@...
 


No doubt the range/noise/etc. is best on Venice, but when comparing the F5/F55/Venice at 0, the F5 seems to me to match the Venice color better than the F55, which is a bit green. Anyone know why?

Cheers.

Noel Sterrett

There are some F55’s that have very slightly different calibration settings to most that can result in a slight green shift. These cameras are basically slightly off spec (Sony can recalibrate them). It may be that the F55 camera used for the evaluation was one of these.


Alister Chapman

DoP - Stereographer
UK Mobile +44 7711 152226
US Mobile +1(216)298-1977


www.xdcam-user.com    1.5 million hits, 100,000 visits from over 45,000 unique visitors every month!  Film and Video production techniques, reviews and news.





Re: Sony VENICE camera - word on the street

Gavin Greenwalt
 

“What are the feelings on highlight rolloff? Especially in comparison to the current “titleholder” ARRI Alexa / Amira sensor?”

Cameras shouldn’t be judged based on what stock gamma curve the manufacturer includes by default in the drop down menu.  Essentially all digital sensors hard clip without any roll off give or take a slight bit of highlight recovery possible with different debayer algorithms.  Essentially every professional camera these days includes user customizable LUTs in camera.  If you don’t like the roll off of a camera, use a different one.   Color of course is still important because that’s partly determined by the bayer color filters and other deep inaccessible color science that the user can’t touch.  But tone mapping is thoroughly within the control of the user and always a LUT whether that’s built in or user uploaded.  If you like Arri’s rolloff, load up an Arri Log gamma curve for your preferred camera.

Gavin Greenwalt
Pixel Wrangler
Seattle, WA

 


Re: Sony VENICE camera - word on the street

Jeremey Shelton
 

What are the feelings on skin tone and highlight rolloff? Especially in comparison to the current “titleholder” ARRI Alexa / Amira sensor?
--
- Jeremey

1801 - 1820 of 1983