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Re: Sony FX9 camera test

alister@...
 

Cynthia.

I think we need to be realistic about differences and improvements between cameras. Most of the current cameras are capable of producing great images. Sensor technology is not significantly changing, so any differences or improvements will only ever be small. You are not suddenly going to see a camera with dramatically greater image quality unless you do something radically different. 

But these small differences do count. Less noise is always nice and make footage easier to work with in post production. Improved color response can make faces and skin tones subtly more pleasing, especially for less experienced colourists.


Alister Chapman 

Cinematographer - DIT - Consultant
UK Mobile/Whatsapp +44 7711 152226


Facebook: Alister Chapman
Twitter: @stormguy



www.xdcam-user.com    1.5 million hits, 100,000 visits from over 45,000 unique visitors every month!  Film and Video production techniques, reviews and news.


















On 17 Apr 2021, at 19:27, Cynthia Brett Webster <cyndustries.mail@...> wrote:

I too am very interested in this thread. I've been shooting with FS7
Cameras for a few years and just finished shooting a feature using FX9 Cameras for the first time.

The budget didn't allow for Sony Venice Cameras, so I suggested using a pair of FX9s and the producers we're extremely happy with the results.

I used S-Cinetone straight out of the box with no LUTs or adjustments or scopes. I simply relied on the camera built-in monitors for color and exposure and used larger monitors connected wirelessly only for framing and Camera Assistants pulling focus. Very pleased with the results.

(Also, the low light capability of the FX9 cameras is phenomenal).

I'm really surprised here by the results of the tests, as under normal set lighting condituons, I wouldn't have expected the differences between the FS7s and FX9s to be so small, (that is, if I understand the data correctly?)

Cynthia Brett Webster
DP,  Los Angeles

.

On Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 10:47 AM <alister@... wrote:
Alfonso. I look forward to reading your findings.


Alister Chapman 

Cinematographer - DIT - Consultant
UK Mobile/Whatsapp +44 7711 152226


Facebook: Alister Chapman
Twitter: @stormguy



www.xdcam-user.com    1.5 million hits, 100,000 visits from over 45,000 unique visitors every month!  Film and Video production techniques, reviews and news.


















On 17 Apr 2021, at 18:07, alfonso parra <info@...> wrote:

Thank you very much Alister for the clarification, I will try to compare the curves with that ISO value and see what it turns out. 

Alfonso Parra ADFC
www.alfonsoparra.com
Tel Colombia 57 311 5798776
Tel Spain 34 639109309
Instagram alfonso_parra_adfc



El 17/04/2021, a las 11:46 a.m., alister@... escribió:

Raising the gain when you are using a power law gamma reduces the dynamic range because gain is a multiplier. If you multiply your 0 to 100% input range from the sensor by 2 it becomes 0 to 200%, but you can’t record 200%, you only have room for 100%. So you have a small change in the shadows but a much larger change in the brighter parts of the image and the dynamic range that can be recorded is reduced by 1 stop for every 6dB you add. Adding gain means you will clip earlier. If you stop down to compensate, bringing the highlights down to where they would be without the added gain you reduce the shadow range as the SNR will become worse, and the extra noise from the amplification will limit the shadow range. You gain no additional highlight range, you are simply returning it to where it would be without the extra gain, but the shadows suffer. With added gain the highlights are less pleasing because the gamma curve is designed to work with the sensors output range, when you add gain because you can now more easily exceed the recording range the highlights clip sooner and don’t look as nice as a result.






Re: Sony FX9 camera test

Cynthia Brett Webster
 

I too am very interested in this thread. I've been shooting with FS7
Cameras for a few years and just finished shooting a feature using FX9 Cameras for the first time.

The budget didn't allow for Sony Venice Cameras, so I suggested using a pair of FX9s and the producers we're extremely happy with the results.

I used S-Cinetone straight out of the box with no LUTs or adjustments or scopes. I simply relied on the camera built-in monitors for color and exposure and used larger monitors connected wirelessly only for framing and Camera Assistants pulling focus. Very pleased with the results.

(Also, the low light capability of the FX9 cameras is phenomenal).

I'm really surprised here by the results of the tests, as under normal set lighting condituons, I wouldn't have expected the differences between the FS7s and FX9s to be so small, (that is, if I understand the data correctly?)

Cynthia Brett Webster
DP,  Los Angeles

.

On Sat, Apr 17, 2021, 10:47 AM <alister@... wrote:
Alfonso. I look forward to reading your findings.


Alister Chapman 

Cinematographer - DIT - Consultant
UK Mobile/Whatsapp +44 7711 152226


Facebook: Alister Chapman
Twitter: @stormguy



www.xdcam-user.com    1.5 million hits, 100,000 visits from over 45,000 unique visitors every month!  Film and Video production techniques, reviews and news.


















On 17 Apr 2021, at 18:07, alfonso parra <info@...> wrote:

Thank you very much Alister for the clarification, I will try to compare the curves with that ISO value and see what it turns out. 

Alfonso Parra ADFC
www.alfonsoparra.com
Tel Colombia 57 311 5798776
Tel Spain 34 639109309
Instagram alfonso_parra_adfc



El 17/04/2021, a las 11:46 a.m., alister@... escribió:

Raising the gain when you are using a power law gamma reduces the dynamic range because gain is a multiplier. If you multiply your 0 to 100% input range from the sensor by 2 it becomes 0 to 200%, but you can’t record 200%, you only have room for 100%. So you have a small change in the shadows but a much larger change in the brighter parts of the image and the dynamic range that can be recorded is reduced by 1 stop for every 6dB you add. Adding gain means you will clip earlier. If you stop down to compensate, bringing the highlights down to where they would be without the added gain you reduce the shadow range as the SNR will become worse, and the extra noise from the amplification will limit the shadow range. You gain no additional highlight range, you are simply returning it to where it would be without the extra gain, but the shadows suffer. With added gain the highlights are less pleasing because the gamma curve is designed to work with the sensors output range, when you add gain because you can now more easily exceed the recording range the highlights clip sooner and don’t look as nice as a result.



Re: Sony FX9 camera test

alister@...
 

Alfonso. I look forward to reading your findings.


Alister Chapman 

Cinematographer - DIT - Consultant
UK Mobile/Whatsapp +44 7711 152226


Facebook: Alister Chapman
Twitter: @stormguy



www.xdcam-user.com    1.5 million hits, 100,000 visits from over 45,000 unique visitors every month!  Film and Video production techniques, reviews and news.


















On 17 Apr 2021, at 18:07, alfonso parra <info@...> wrote:

Thank you very much Alister for the clarification, I will try to compare the curves with that ISO value and see what it turns out. 

Alfonso Parra ADFC
www.alfonsoparra.com
Tel Colombia 57 311 5798776
Tel Spain 34 639109309
Instagram alfonso_parra_adfc



El 17/04/2021, a las 11:46 a.m., alister@... escribió:

Raising the gain when you are using a power law gamma reduces the dynamic range because gain is a multiplier. If you multiply your 0 to 100% input range from the sensor by 2 it becomes 0 to 200%, but you can’t record 200%, you only have room for 100%. So you have a small change in the shadows but a much larger change in the brighter parts of the image and the dynamic range that can be recorded is reduced by 1 stop for every 6dB you add. Adding gain means you will clip earlier. If you stop down to compensate, bringing the highlights down to where they would be without the added gain you reduce the shadow range as the SNR will become worse, and the extra noise from the amplification will limit the shadow range. You gain no additional highlight range, you are simply returning it to where it would be without the extra gain, but the shadows suffer. With added gain the highlights are less pleasing because the gamma curve is designed to work with the sensors output range, when you add gain because you can now more easily exceed the recording range the highlights clip sooner and don’t look as nice as a result.



Re: Sony FX9 camera test

alister@...
 

Hi again Alfonso.

Sony’s logic when designing their cameras and determining base ISO appears to be based on finding the sensors clip point and working down from there. So where you have a 460% curve such as S-Cinetone you design the curve so that 100% sensor output = a recording level of 109IRE and then go down 11 stops from there to black. This will give a good SNR while making use of the sensors full highlight range, the shadow range is limited by the gamma curve, but the shadows remain clean because you are putting a good amount of light onto the sensor.

Then for S-Log3 you put 100% sensor output at 94IRE (the clip point of the S-Log3 curve) and go down 15(ish) stops from there. This results in a reduced SNR, the impression of a greater highlight range (because you putting less light on the sensor) while the gamma curve extends deeper into the shadows and noise, so overall greater DR but at the expense of more noise than S-Cinetone.

Because S-Log3 has 6 stops from clip to middle grey and then S-Cinetone has 4.5(ish) stops from clip to middle grey, you need to expose S-Cinetone 1.5 stops darker than S-Log3 to put middle grey in the right place and achieve the full dynamic range without clipping the highlights. So S-Cinetone ends up with a base ISO rating that is almost 1.5 stops lower than S-Log3.   

The base ISO for all the STD gammas as well as HG1-4 is 320/1600. HG7 & HG8 are 500/2500ISO (they have a greater highlight range than S-Cinetone so as above they are rated higher so you expose the sensor lower to gain the extra highlight range).

Sony don’t give a middle grey value for S-Cinetone because the idea is that you adjust your exposure to make use of the roll-off that starts around 65IRE to alter the contrast in your upper mid range and brighter skin tones to provide more or less contrast depending on the look you want. There is also a very small change in the gain in the toe of S-Cinetone that has a similar effect to shadow contrast - brighter = less, darker = more. My own testing suggests that to match the 320ISO base rating that you would expose middle grey at 44IRE and a 90% reflectivity white card at 78IRE. There is a white paper on S-Cinetone: https://pro.sony/s3/2020/03/24095333/S-Cinetone-whitepaper_v2.pdf


Alister Chapman 

Cinematographer - DIT - Consultant
UK Mobile/Whatsapp +44 7711 152226


Facebook: Alister Chapman
Twitter: @stormguy



www.xdcam-user.com    1.5 million hits, 100,000 visits from over 45,000 unique visitors every month!  Film and Video production techniques, reviews and news.


















On 17 Apr 2021, at 16:06, alfonso parra <info@...> wrote:

We decided to use the dual ISO base settings ​​for all the curves and thus be able to compare them to the same ISO value, in this case with the cinetone curve we use 800 as for the Slog3 curve so that we can clearly see the differences. If it is interesting to observe how you have made, the curve with different ISO values ​​and compare the results. What surprises me is that by raising the value of the S-cinetone to 800, detail is lost in the highs when normally the opposite happens, by increasing the gain, or the ISO value, the ability to collect detail in the highs increases, losing in the shadows. I don't remember now, but does Sony make any recommendation on the ISO value to use with the S-cinetone or does it indicate how much the middle gray value should be? May I ask you how did you get to 320 ISO in relation to 0db? In the theoretical sensibility test that we did, it gave us that the 800 ISO would be 0db considering the STD5 curve with gamma 2.4, which is actually quite similar to S-cinetone, actually the most similar is the STD3 only that S-Cinetone compresses something else in the highlights. 
Regards


Alfonso Parra ADFC
www.alfonsoparra.com
Tel Colombia 57 311 5798776
Tel Spain 34 639109309
Instagram alfonso_parra_adfc






Re: Sony FX9 camera test

alfonso parra
 

Thank you very much Alister for the clarification, I will try to compare the curves with that ISO value and see what it turns out. 

Alfonso Parra ADFC
www.alfonsoparra.com
Tel Colombia 57 311 5798776
Tel Spain 34 639109309
Instagram alfonso_parra_adfc



El 17/04/2021, a las 11:46 a.m., alister@... escribió:

Raising the gain when you are using a power law gamma reduces the dynamic range because gain is a multiplier. If you multiply your 0 to 100% input range from the sensor by 2 it becomes 0 to 200%, but you can’t record 200%, you only have room for 100%. So you have a small change in the shadows but a much larger change in the brighter parts of the image and the dynamic range that can be recorded is reduced by 1 stop for every 6dB you add. Adding gain means you will clip earlier. If you stop down to compensate, bringing the highlights down to where they would be without the added gain you reduce the shadow range as the SNR will become worse, and the extra noise from the amplification will limit the shadow range. You gain no additional highlight range, you are simply returning it to where it would be without the extra gain, but the shadows suffer. With added gain the highlights are less pleasing because the gamma curve is designed to work with the sensors output range, when you add gain because you can now more easily exceed the recording range the highlights clip sooner and don’t look as nice as a result.


Re: Sony FX9 camera test

alister@...
 

The base ISO’s for S-Cinetone on the FX9 are 320 and 1600. This is of course also 0dB.  0dB is virtually always the native ISO, so to discover the cameras native ISO if it has a dB mode, switch to dB and compare to the ISO value. This information is also contained in the clip metadata and the recommendation to use the base ISO’s of 320/1600ISO for the cameras 460% dynamic range curves (including S-Cinetone and HG1 to 4) is included in the manual. 

Raising the gain when you are using a power law gamma reduces the dynamic range because gain is a multiplier. If you multiply your 0 to 100% input range from the sensor by 2 it becomes 0 to 200%, but you can’t record 200%, you only have room for 100%. So you have a small change in the shadows but a much larger change in the brighter parts of the image and the dynamic range that can be recorded is reduced by 1 stop for every 6dB you add. Adding gain means you will clip earlier. If you stop down to compensate, bringing the highlights down to where they would be without the added gain you reduce the shadow range as the SNR will become worse, and the extra noise from the amplification will limit the shadow range. You gain no additional highlight range, you are simply returning it to where it would be without the extra gain, but the shadows suffer. With added gain the highlights are less pleasing because the gamma curve is designed to work with the sensors output range, when you add gain because you can now more easily exceed the recording range the highlights clip sooner and don’t look as nice as a result.


Alister Chapman 

Cinematographer - DIT - Consultant
UK Mobile/Whatsapp +44 7711 152226


Facebook: Alister Chapman
Twitter: @stormguy



www.xdcam-user.com    1.5 million hits, 100,000 visits from over 45,000 unique visitors every month!  Film and Video production techniques, reviews and news.


















On 17 Apr 2021, at 16:06, alfonso parra <info@...> wrote:

We decided to use the dual ISO base settings ​​for all the curves and thus be able to compare them to the same ISO value, in this case with the cinetone curve we use 800 as for the Slog3 curve so that we can clearly see the differences. If it is interesting to observe how you have made, the curve with different ISO values ​​and compare the results. What surprises me is that by raising the value of the S-cinetone to 800, detail is lost in the highs when normally the opposite happens, by increasing the gain, or the ISO value, the ability to collect detail in the highs increases, losing in the shadows. I don't remember now, but does Sony make any recommendation on the ISO value to use with the S-cinetone or does it indicate how much the middle gray value should be? May I ask you how did you get to 320 ISO in relation to 0db? In the theoretical sensibility test that we did, it gave us that the 800 ISO would be 0db considering the STD5 curve with gamma 2.4, which is actually quite similar to S-cinetone, actually the most similar is the STD3 only that S-Cinetone compresses something else in the highlights. 
Regards


Alfonso Parra ADFC
www.alfonsoparra.com
Tel Colombia 57 311 5798776
Tel Spain 34 639109309
Instagram alfonso_parra_adfc






Re: Sony FX9 camera test

alfonso parra
 

We decided to use the dual ISO base settings ​​for all the curves and thus be able to compare them to the same ISO value, in this case with the cinetone curve we use 800 as for the Slog3 curve so that we can clearly see the differences. If it is interesting to observe how you have made, the curve with different ISO values ​​and compare the results. What surprises me is that by raising the value of the S-cinetone to 800, detail is lost in the highs when normally the opposite happens, by increasing the gain, or the ISO value, the ability to collect detail in the highs increases, losing in the shadows. I don't remember now, but does Sony make any recommendation on the ISO value to use with the S-cinetone or does it indicate how much the middle gray value should be? May I ask you how did you get to 320 ISO in relation to 0db? In the theoretical sensibility test that we did, it gave us that the 800 ISO would be 0db considering the STD5 curve with gamma 2.4, which is actually quite similar to S-cinetone, actually the most similar is the STD3 only that S-Cinetone compresses something else in the highlights. 
Regards


Alfonso Parra ADFC
www.alfonsoparra.com
Tel Colombia 57 311 5798776
Tel Spain 34 639109309
Instagram alfonso_parra_adfc





Re: Sony FX9 camera test

alister@...
 

I’m curios Alfonso as to why the S-Cinetone tests were all done with +7dB of gain added? My own testing indicates that adding gain to the S-Cinetone curve reduces the highlight range, results in more abrupt highlight clipping and increases noise compared to using it at it 0dB/320 ISO.


Alister Chapman 

Cinematographer - DIT - Consultant
UK Mobile/Whatsapp +44 7711 152226


Facebook: Alister Chapman
Twitter: @stormguy



www.xdcam-user.com    1.5 million hits, 100,000 visits from over 45,000 unique visitors every month!  Film and Video production techniques, reviews and news.


















On 16 Apr 2021, at 15:49, alfonso parra <info@...> wrote:

Dear colleagues, we have published our review of the Sony FX9 camera on the IMAGO website.
We hope it is of interest to you.

https://www.imago.org/index.php/news/item/1127-sony-pxw-fx9-camera-test.html

Regards
Alfonso Parra ADFC
www.alfonsoparra.com


Re: Sony FX9 camera test

Pawel Achtel, ACS
 

Very good, Alfonso. Thank you for taking time to test and share. As usual, very informative.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc.

“Sharp to the Edge”

 

ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417

Website: www.achtel.com

Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747)

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Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel

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_,_


Re: Sony FX9 camera test

Jessica Gallant
 

Thank you for posting this, I found it informative and helpful.

Jessica Gallant
West Coast Administrator, CML
Director of Photography | Los Angeles | CA
http://jessicajgallant.com
http://wb.imdb.com/name/nm0002680/
cell: 818-645-2787
email: jessicajgallant@...

On Apr 16, 2021, at 7:49 AM, alfonso parra <info@...> wrote:

Dear colleagues, we have published our review of the Sony FX9 camera on the IMAGO website.
We hope it is of interest to you.

https://www.imago.org/index.php/news/item/1127-sony-pxw-fx9-camera-test.html

Regards
Alfonso Parra ADFC
www.alfonsoparra.com


Sony FX9 camera test

alfonso parra
 

Dear colleagues, we have published our review of the Sony FX9 camera on the IMAGO website.
We hope it is of interest to you.

https://www.imago.org/index.php/news/item/1127-sony-pxw-fx9-camera-test.html

Regards
Alfonso Parra ADFC
www.alfonsoparra.com


Re: Wave-Freefly Hi Speed Camera

Mitch Gross
 

This camera has a global shutter. I suspect the camera was still warming up and it needed a fresh black shading. High frame rate systems are a bit more finicky about such things, even the best of them. 

Mitch Gross
New York

On Apr 2, 2021, at 6:43 PM, Jeff Kreines <jeff@...> wrote:

Looks like a rolling shutter. 

Jeff Kreines
Kinetta
jeff@...
kinetta.com

Sent from iPhone. 

On Apr 1, 2021, at 12:42 PM, Barry Bassett <bb@...> wrote:



I bought one of these for our rental division and the engineering guys felt that the quality of this camera had some real issues which made its purchase unwise.

 

Barry Bassett

Rental company, VMI, London


Re: Wave-Freefly Hi Speed Camera

Jeff Kreines
 

Looks like a rolling shutter. 

Jeff Kreines
Kinetta
jeff@...
kinetta.com

Sent from iPhone. 

On Apr 1, 2021, at 12:42 PM, Barry Bassett <bb@...> wrote:



I bought one of these for our rental division and the engineering guys felt that the quality of this camera had some real issues which made its purchase unwise.

 

Barry Bassett

Rental company, VMI, London


Re: Wave-Freefly Hi Speed Camera

Brian Heller
 

To add to Bob Kertesz’s cogent post, the phenomenon whereby the color of objects that appear to the eye to be the same, but are rendered differently to different sensors or under different lighting, is called metamerism, or more precisely: illuminant metameric failure.

There’s plenty of information on the subject on line and also in the CML archives.

Brian Heller
IA 600 DP


On Apr 2, 2021, at 2:08 PM, Bob Kertesz <bob@...> wrote:



Would shooting through IRND Filters help to even out the blacks reaching the sensor?

Cynthia Webster DP


Yes, if there's actual IR present. Even when subtle (and depending on the camera/lens/sensor), the changed blacks are the first thing I notice when IR is present, as they usually tend to go a brownish/reddish color on camera.

But it also depends on the material doing the reflecting. I once shot a promo with a four person Mariachi band all wearing tuxedos. All the tuxes looked black to the naked eye, but depending on the material used, they went different colors on camera from subtle browns to subtle greens. The only one that remained black was the one that seemed to be made with cotton. 100% cotton seems to absorb the IR and not reflect it back into the lens.

It has been my experience that a well used all cotton flag shoved in front of the camera can often be used as a 'standard', since unless the IR is wildly out of control (shooting outside in bright sunlight with a ton of non-IR coated NDs), it will remain black in the presence of moderate IR. I used to use that trick to answer the question of "Why are the blacks different colors? What's wrong with your camera?" If the flag stayed black, the answer was "Nothing at all."

-Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California

Mostly Retired Engineer, Video Controller, and Live Compositor Extraordinaire.

High quality images for almost five decades - whether you've wanted them or not.©

* * * * * * * * * *


Re: Wave-Freefly Hi Speed Camera

Bob Kertesz
 

Would shooting through IRND Filters help to even out the blacks reaching the sensor?

Cynthia Webster DP


Yes, if there's actual IR present. Even when subtle (and depending on the camera/lens/sensor), the changed blacks are the first thing I notice when IR is present, as they usually tend to go a brownish/reddish color on camera.

But it also depends on the material doing the reflecting. I once shot a promo with a four person Mariachi band all wearing tuxedos. All the tuxes looked black to the naked eye, but depending on the material used, they went different colors on camera from subtle browns to subtle greens. The only one that remained black was the one that seemed to be made with cotton. 100% cotton seems to absorb the IR and not reflect it back into the lens.

It has been my experience that a well used all cotton flag shoved in front of the camera can often be used as a 'standard', since unless the IR is wildly out of control (shooting outside in bright sunlight with a ton of non-IR coated NDs), it will remain black in the presence of moderate IR. I used to use that trick to answer the question of "Why are the blacks different colors? What's wrong with your camera?" If the flag stayed black, the answer was "Nothing at all."

-Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California

Mostly Retired Engineer, Video Controller, and Live Compositor Extraordinaire.

High quality images for almost five decades - whether you've wanted them or not.©

* * * * * * * * * *


Re: Wave-Freefly Hi Speed Camera

Barry Bassett
 

We noticed lines on our test recordings too and this is why we rejected the Wave camera.

 

Barry Bassett

London rental company, VMI


Re: Wave-Freefly Hi Speed Camera

Andrew Boulter
 

Hi, 

thank you everyone for your answers, the “fixed pattern noise” seems to be the best description of the issue, I am going to contact Wave Freefly direct and see if they can tell me anymore, or if they are hoping to solve it with firmware update.

I don’t really agree with you Rakesh as the exposure set is correct for the hi lights from the water and the stone in direct sunlight, when doing this test I made sure that there was a significant amount of shadow so it was easy to see what issues, if any, might be.  Dynamic range historically has always been a thing with any of the high speed cameras, do you remember the Weissman 1 !  Its the first thing I look for, its not great on this camera, but not that bad, considering the $10K price point.  I really want to like this, having a highspeed/slowmo camera on car shoots is super useful, especially if its cheap to rent.

For the moment the lines issue that I see in the shadows means this one, as it stands is unusable.

Thankyou to Andrew Hunter for the work around, seems they really need to make this happen incamera.

Andrew

Andrew Boulter
Director of Photography
UK based but thanks to Covid, currently in Dubai for the foreseeable
+447768877686
+971585047839

On 2 Apr 2021, at 16:46, Rakesh Malik <tamerlin@...> wrote:

To be honest, I'd guess that you might be dealing with nothing more complicated than under-exposure here. It's a common thing in slow motion footage from people who haven't tried it, because it's easy to underestimate the difference in shutter speeds. You're looking at 1/800th of a second (1/1600th if you're using a 180 degree shutter), which is a huge difference from the standard 1/48 of a second. 

Plus, the areas in direct sunlight aren't showing the fixed pattern noise, which reinforces my theory that you're seeing underexposure. 

Rakesh Malik
DoP/Colourist, Vancouver, BC


-----------------------------


On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 8:32 AM Art Adams <aadams@...> wrote:

Hi Cynthia-

 

If there’s enough IR pollution then yes, the blacks would be contaminated along with everything else. At lower levels only fabrics and certain materials will noticeably change color.

 

In this case, as Andrew Hunter points out, it’s probably fixed pattern noise, so an IRND wouldn’t help.

 

Generally, though, a filter is going to affect all the light reaching the sensor, so anything that it does to the shadows will also be done to the highlights.

 

-Art

 

_______________________________________________________
Art 
Adams
Cinema Lens Specialist
ARRI Inc.
3700 Vanowen Street
BurbankCA 91505
www.arri.com 

<image588541.png>
818-841-7070
x4212
 
<image374425.png>
aadams@...

Get all the latest information from www.arri.comFacebookTwitterInstagram and YouTube.






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From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> on behalf of Cynthia Brett Webster via cml.news <cyndustries.mail=gmail.com@...>
Date: Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 11:54 PM
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...>
Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] Wave-Freefly Hi Speed Camera

Would shooting through IRND Filters help to even out the blacks reaching the sensor?

 

Cynthia Webster DP

Los Angeles

818-524-9773

 

This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet.

On Thu, Apr 1, 2021, 12:21 PM Art Adams <aadams@... wrote:

Hi Andrew-

 

You’re thinking about black shading, not black balance. Black balance will just make sure black is black. Black shading is about eliminating noise and fixed patterns.

 

-Art

 

_______________________________________________________

Art

 

Adams

Cinema Lens Specialist

ARRI Inc.

3700 Vanowen Street

Burbank

CA

 

91505

www.arri.com 

818-841-7070

x4212

 

aadams@...

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From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> on behalf of Andrew Boulter via cml.news <andrew=andrewboulter.com@...>
Date: Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 12:06 PM
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...>
Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] Wave-Freefly Hi Speed Camera

Yes, sorry about the examples, they are not great, here’s one more, I have increased the brightness and raised the shadow areas just to so you can see the pattern.  I hasten to add this is only to see the lines, forget the colours etc.  One of my thoughts was that its to do with a black balance, which isn’t possible, I then thought perhaps the temperature of the sensor might be an issue, I know when shooting Phantom some techs have told me they want the camera to ‘warm up”  

 

My main question is , what is producing the pattern, obviously the sensor, but what part of it and why?

 

 
 

Andrew Boulter

Director of Photography

UK based but thanks to Covid, currently in Dubai for the foreseeable

+447768877686

+971585047839

 

On 1 Apr 2021, at 19:25, Colin Elves <colin@...> wrote:

 

I agree 100% with Alister: the frames are too small to judge (😃) but my initial assumption would be that it’s fixed pattern noise. Most cameras address this with a black balance. If that’s not an option here you’ll need to do it in post.

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
Back in Brussels

On 1 Apr 2021, at 20:10, Andrew Boulter <andrew@...> wrote:

Thanks Alister, seems I forgot to mention one important thing, it was lit with sunlight alone, so its not that.

Andrew

 
 

This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet.





Re: Wave-Freefly Hi Speed Camera

Rakesh Malik
 

To be honest, I'd guess that you might be dealing with nothing more complicated than under-exposure here. It's a common thing in slow motion footage from people who haven't tried it, because it's easy to underestimate the difference in shutter speeds. You're looking at 1/800th of a second (1/1600th if you're using a 180 degree shutter), which is a huge difference from the standard 1/48 of a second. 

Plus, the areas in direct sunlight aren't showing the fixed pattern noise, which reinforces my theory that you're seeing underexposure. 

Rakesh Malik
DoP/Colourist, Vancouver, BC


-----------------------------


On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 8:32 AM Art Adams <aadams@...> wrote:

Hi Cynthia-

 

If there’s enough IR pollution then yes, the blacks would be contaminated along with everything else. At lower levels only fabrics and certain materials will noticeably change color.

 

In this case, as Andrew Hunter points out, it’s probably fixed pattern noise, so an IRND wouldn’t help.

 

Generally, though, a filter is going to affect all the light reaching the sensor, so anything that it does to the shadows will also be done to the highlights.

 

-Art

 

_______________________________________________________
Art 
Adams
Cinema Lens Specialist
ARRI Inc.
3700 Vanowen Street
BurbankCA 91505
www.arri.com 

818-841-7070
x4212
 
aadams@...

Get all the latest information from www.arri.comFacebookTwitterInstagram and YouTube.






This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet.


From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> on behalf of Cynthia Brett Webster via cml.news <cyndustries.mail=gmail.com@...>
Date: Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 11:54 PM
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...>
Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] Wave-Freefly Hi Speed Camera

Would shooting through IRND Filters help to even out the blacks reaching the sensor?

 

Cynthia Webster DP

Los Angeles

818-524-9773

 

This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet.

On Thu, Apr 1, 2021, 12:21 PM Art Adams <aadams@... wrote:

Hi Andrew-

 

You’re thinking about black shading, not black balance. Black balance will just make sure black is black. Black shading is about eliminating noise and fixed patterns.

 

-Art

 

_______________________________________________________

Art

 

Adams

Cinema Lens Specialist

ARRI Inc.

3700 Vanowen Street

Burbank

CA

 

91505

www.arri.com 

818-841-7070

x4212

 

aadams@...

Get all the latest information from www.arri.comFacebookTwitterInstagram and YouTube.





This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet.

From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> on behalf of Andrew Boulter via cml.news <andrew=andrewboulter.com@...>
Date: Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 12:06 PM
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...>
Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] Wave-Freefly Hi Speed Camera

Yes, sorry about the examples, they are not great, here’s one more, I have increased the brightness and raised the shadow areas just to so you can see the pattern.  I hasten to add this is only to see the lines, forget the colours etc.  One of my thoughts was that its to do with a black balance, which isn’t possible, I then thought perhaps the temperature of the sensor might be an issue, I know when shooting Phantom some techs have told me they want the camera to ‘warm up”  

 

My main question is , what is producing the pattern, obviously the sensor, but what part of it and why?

 

 

 

Andrew Boulter

Director of Photography

UK based but thanks to Covid, currently in Dubai for the foreseeable

+447768877686

+971585047839

 

On 1 Apr 2021, at 19:25, Colin Elves <colin@...> wrote:

 

I agree 100% with Alister: the frames are too small to judge (😃) but my initial assumption would be that it’s fixed pattern noise. Most cameras address this with a black balance. If that’s not an option here you’ll need to do it in post.

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
Back in Brussels

On 1 Apr 2021, at 20:10, Andrew Boulter <andrew@...> wrote:

Thanks Alister, seems I forgot to mention one important thing, it was lit with sunlight alone, so its not that.

Andrew

 

 

This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet.


Wave-Freefly Hi Speed Camera

Art Adams
 

Hi Cynthia-

 

If there’s enough IR pollution then yes, the blacks would be contaminated along with everything else. At lower levels only fabrics and certain materials will noticeably change color.

 

In this case, as Andrew Hunter points out, it’s probably fixed pattern noise, so an IRND wouldn’t help.

 

Generally, though, a filter is going to affect all the light reaching the sensor, so anything that it does to the shadows will also be done to the highlights.

 

-Art

 

_______________________________________________________
Art 
Adams
Cinema Lens Specialist
ARRI Inc.
3700 Vanowen Street
BurbankCA 91505
www.arri.com 

818-841-7070
x4212
 
aadams@...

Get all the latest information from www.arri.comFacebookTwitterInstagram and YouTube.






This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet.


From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> on behalf of Cynthia Brett Webster via cml.news <cyndustries.mail=gmail.com@...>
Date: Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 11:54 PM
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...>
Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] Wave-Freefly Hi Speed Camera

Would shooting through IRND Filters help to even out the blacks reaching the sensor?

 

Cynthia Webster DP

Los Angeles

818-524-9773

 

This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet.

On Thu, Apr 1, 2021, 12:21 PM Art Adams <aadams@... wrote:

Hi Andrew-

 

You’re thinking about black shading, not black balance. Black balance will just make sure black is black. Black shading is about eliminating noise and fixed patterns.

 

-Art

 

_______________________________________________________

Art

 

Adams

Cinema Lens Specialist

ARRI Inc.

3700 Vanowen Street

Burbank

CA

 

91505

www.arri.com 

818-841-7070

x4212

 

aadams@...

Get all the latest information from www.arri.comFacebookTwitterInstagram and YouTube.





This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet.

From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> on behalf of Andrew Boulter via cml.news <andrew=andrewboulter.com@...>
Date: Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 12:06 PM
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...>
Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] Wave-Freefly Hi Speed Camera

Yes, sorry about the examples, they are not great, here’s one more, I have increased the brightness and raised the shadow areas just to so you can see the pattern.  I hasten to add this is only to see the lines, forget the colours etc.  One of my thoughts was that its to do with a black balance, which isn’t possible, I then thought perhaps the temperature of the sensor might be an issue, I know when shooting Phantom some techs have told me they want the camera to ‘warm up”  

 

My main question is , what is producing the pattern, obviously the sensor, but what part of it and why?

 

 

 

Andrew Boulter

Director of Photography

UK based but thanks to Covid, currently in Dubai for the foreseeable

+447768877686

+971585047839

 

On 1 Apr 2021, at 19:25, Colin Elves <colin@...> wrote:

 

I agree 100% with Alister: the frames are too small to judge (😃) but my initial assumption would be that it’s fixed pattern noise. Most cameras address this with a black balance. If that’s not an option here you’ll need to do it in post.

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
Back in Brussels

On 1 Apr 2021, at 20:10, Andrew Boulter <andrew@...> wrote:

Thanks Alister, seems I forgot to mention one important thing, it was lit with sunlight alone, so its not that.

Andrew

 

 

This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet.


Re: Wave-Freefly Hi Speed Camera

Andrew Hunter
 

Hey Andrew,

The sample images you posted look like fixed pattern noise to me, BMD had similar issues with their 1st 4k camera when I recieved it.  Black shading is of course easier for everyone (production and post) when applied in camera but can be done after the fact.

The steps I've used in the past are as follows:

  1. Record about 2-3 minutes with the port cap on.
  2. Make sure that you are doing all your math with a linear oetf in the compositing app of your choice or the math just won't work right. 
  3. Average out the dark frames. (eg ADD all frames then DIVIDE by the number of frames)
  4. SUBTRACT the averaged dark frame from each frame of footage. 
It's cumbersome and much better when done in camera, but it is a method of salvaging shots when either a black shade wasn't done or was done incorrectly. 

My recollections from working with the Phantom HD Golds of yesteryear was the phantom tech would blackshade everytime we changed frame rate.

Sincerely,
Andrew Hunter
1st AC/ Sometimes DP+workflow janitor
Toronto, Canada

On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 3:29 PM Andrew Boulter <andrew@...> wrote:
Thankyou Art, 

So my next question is would black shading solve the problem I am seeing, and is that something a firmware update can cure, or not…….?  

Andrew

Andrew Boulter
Director of Photography
UK based but thanks to Covid, currently in Dubai for the foreseeable
+447768877686
+971585047839

On 1 Apr 2021, at 20:20, Art Adams <aadams@...> wrote:

Hi Andrew-
 
You’re thinking about black shading, not black balance. Black balance will just make sure black is black. Black shading is about eliminating noise and fixed patterns.
 
-Art
 
_______________________________________________________
Art 
Adams
Cinema Lens Specialist
ARRI Inc.
3700 Vanowen Street
BurbankCA 91505
www.arri.com 

<image458551.png>
818-841-7070
x4212
 
<image888287.png>
aadams@...

Get all the latest information from www.arri.comFacebookTwitterInstagram and YouTube.






This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet.


From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> on behalf of Andrew Boulter via cml.news <andrew=andrewboulter.com@...>
Date: Thursday, April 1, 2021 at 12:06 PM
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...>
Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] Wave-Freefly Hi Speed Camera

Yes, sorry about the examples, they are not great, here’s one more, I have increased the brightness and raised the shadow areas just to so you can see the pattern.  I hasten to add this is only to see the lines, forget the colours etc.  One of my thoughts was that its to do with a black balance, which isn’t possible, I then thought perhaps the temperature of the sensor might be an issue, I know when shooting Phantom some techs have told me they want the camera to ‘warm up”  
 
My main question is , what is producing the pattern, obviously the sensor, but what part of it and why?
 
<image001.jpg>
 
 
Andrew Boulter
Director of Photography
UK based but thanks to Covid, currently in Dubai for the foreseeable
+447768877686
+971585047839


On 1 Apr 2021, at 19:25, Colin Elves <colin@...> wrote:
 

I agree 100% with Alister: the frames are too small to judge (😃) but my initial assumption would be that it’s fixed pattern noise. Most cameras address this with a black balance. If that’s not an option here you’ll need to do it in post. 

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
Back in Brussels

On 1 Apr 2021, at 20:10, Andrew Boulter <andrew@...> wrote:

Thanks Alister, seems I forgot to mention one important thing, it was lit with sunlight alone, so its not that.

Andrew
 
 

This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet.




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