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Geoff Boyle
 

This is moving away from RAW etc but…

 

I don’t like the rush to FF, it is causing all kinds of focus issues. I can see why it’s likes for some things.

I’m confused about the new Canon C700FF, it’s really not clear to me what actual sizes for formats are and what is resampling and downscaling, I’ve read and re-read the press releases and John Fauers F&D Times article but I’m still not clear. I’m probably being think!

S35 is a great standard for theatrical and TV, mainly because of that word standard, I know what size images are going to be and I know what lenses will cover it and on and on.

S16 is a tremendous format for documentaries, I just can’t imaging shooting some of the stuff I did for 20/20 in the 80’s with a larger sensor unless I had autofocus and a touch screen over-ride and even then…

 

The arguments about D0F are bullshit, it’s just optics and wider apertures or longer lenses etc deal with that for you, and most of you can’t tell the difference between a FF 75mm and a S35 50mm shot with the aperture altered to match DoF. I have definitive proof of this 😊

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Zoetermeer

www.gboyle.co.uk

+31 (0) 637 155 076

 


Re: Skintones - Are They Affected at the Sensor Level? And Motion Cadence Question

Mark Weingartner, ASC
 


On 29Mar, 2018, at 17:41 30, Adam Wilt <adam@...> wrote:

it worked better than it had any right to, disgustingly well given how “coarse” the source sampling was. 

Jon Erland at the Pickfair Institute took a slightly different tack in this sailboat race - we photographed a variety of types of motion (stick fighting, Tai-chi, archery, etc) at a number of frame rates and also at 250 fps using a Phantom…    and then went back and generated various playback speeds and shutter angles by picking and processing different numbers of frames.

As a creative exercise it was really interesting -   You could easily create 24 fps playback frames with the motion blur characteristics of 12fps or 6fps photography…   or 60fps or 120fps with the motion blur you associate with 24fps.

Not just a good analysis tool but a really interesting production tool if one were to go down that path

One thing interesting about this approach is that integrating frames from high speed photography can be done without resorting to twixtor or any  optical flow frame interpolation…  I won’t say it is an “organic” approach exactly but it is additive without synthesizing…   thus avoiding some of the odd artifacts that re-speeding can cause.


As Adam pointed out, this i pretty storage-intensive at the on-set photographic stage of the process…  but hey - storage is getting cheaper every day…  I just bought a couple of 4TB hard drives for about twenty-five bucks per TB…   


Cheers,

Mark Weingartner, ASC
LA-based DP/VFX Supervisor






Re: Skintones - Are They Affected at the Sensor Level? And Motion Cadence Question

Daniel Drasin
 

Keith Putnam writes: Yes, a spinning mirror shutter is not a global shutter; not all of the frame is exposed simultaneously.

-------------------

Well, the net effects (gross and subtle) of a spinning shutter depend on shutter-opening angle, shutter orientation (focal-plane vs 45 degrees) and lens telecentricity. At one extreme it's global (with fade-in/out), and at the other extreme a rolling shutter.

Dan Drasin
Producer/DP
Marin County, CA



Re: Skintones - Are They Affected at the Sensor Level? And Motion Cadence Question

deanan@gmail.com
 


That's the dyes on the sensor, the IR/UV cut, and the color pipeline have the biggest effects on skintone color.

The spectral response of the sensor/dyes is further shaped by the IR/UV cut, which in turn is massaged into something pleasing by the color processing.
If the dyes and IR/UV cut filters aren't balanced favorably for skintones, the color pipeline has to work againt that.

Latitude, precision, olpf (separate from IR/UV cut), lossy compression, and lens qualities also affect skintones but in different ways (grading, texture, etc).

Deanan DaSilva
Playa del Rey, Ca

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 5:37 AM, Ed David <ed.david@...> wrote:

Is the concept of a digital camera's ability to make nice or not-so-photorealistic skintones a factor based at the sensor level or is it further down the pipeline?

And now second part:  digital cameras and their motion cadence.  To my eyes, the motion of digital cameras all feel different at 24 FPS.  I really love the motion feeling of red cameras at 180 degree shutter.  To me, alexa cameras feel a little too blurry in their motion.  And the king for me of recent was the Sony F65 with a mechanical shutter.  What is happening at the shutter technology - is there some kind of interpolation of how frames are put together along with digital shutter that makes a camera have motion that feels one way and another the others?  Is this affected by the codec of how motion blur is captured?




Re: Canon jumping on the LF bandwagon...

Joseph Goldstone <jgoldstone@...>
 



On Mar 29, 2018, at 12:00 PM, Gavin Greenwalt <im.thatoneguy@...> wrote:
If anyone is joining a bandwagon it’s Arri in their recent rush to release 4k cameras

Bless you. Five years of hearing people complain about how we were too slow on this; it’s great to hear someone say we’ve moving overly fast. Reminds me of this old joke:
A turtle is crossing the road when he’s mugged by two snails. When the police show up, they ask him what happened. The shaken turtle replies, “I don’t know. It all happened so fast.”

Joseph Goldstone
Image Science Engineer
ARRI Cine Technik Munich / ARRI, Inc. Burbank


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Re: Canon jumping on the LF bandwagon...

Jonathon Sendall
 

Noel Sterrett wrote:

"Actually, I think the sweet spot for DOF is S35"

I was thinking more of the 5D revolution. Whack on a Zeiss Contax 50mm f1.4 or some of the older Rokkor lenses at f1.2 and you had cheap super shallow DOF but admittedly shitty codec. But for a lot of things it was workable but you couldn't pull focus on it, you had to do that with your feet and body movement instead. Fun days

Jonathon Sendall
DP, London, UK


Re: Skintones - Are They Affected at the Sensor Level? And Motion Cadence Question

Adam Wilt
 

But isn’t the fade in/fade out lost when the frame is recorded or presented on a video display. 

No, the shaped exposure window attenuates high-frequency aliases during capture, before they are inextricably embedded in the captured image. Tessive images were clearly smoother than “normal” electronic-shuttered images even on the coarse and primitive LCD displays of that long-distant era (2011, grin).

I’m embedding an image in my email and with any luck it’ll appear; if not, it’s towards the bottom of the page at Cine Gear Expo LA 2011 by Adam Wilt - ProVideo Coalition


Using a Gaussian sampling window as the Time Filter did works in the temporal domain just like Gaussian sampling in the spatial domain. Put “gaussian sampling to reduce aliasing” into your favorite search engine and you’ll get enough results to keep you busy for hours.

There’s a whole bunch of artifacts possible depending on the presentation technology (don’t get me started on DLP artifacts during eye saccades) but these are in addition to temporal capture artifacts. Once you’ve captured the spinning wagon wheel spinning backwards, you’re stuck with it.

It is still I availableI think as RealD TrueMotion

That’s a different way of skinning the same cat: TrueMotion (formerly Tessive Time Shaper) uses a 360º shutter and high-frame-rate (120fps+) capture to record a scene, and then lets you selectively pull groups of frames from that stream to synthesize lower frame rates (e.g., 24fps) with “shutter angles” determined in post by combining more or fewer source frames into each output frame, dimming the leading & trailing source frame(s) as needed to “shape” the synthetic shutter window. I saw a demo (I think by Jim DeFilippis) at the Tech Retreat a few years ago: it worked better than it had any right to, disgustingly well given how “coarse” the source sampling was. 

Mind you, you do need an HFR-capable camera and plenty of light, and the storage requirements are scandalous!

Adam Wilt
technical services: consulting / coding / camerawork
Vancouver WA USA (no, not that Vancouver, the other one)


Re: Skintones - Are They Affected at the Sensor Level?And Motion Cadence Question

Gavin Greenwalt
 

I assume he means the Tessive Time Filter hardware which was a genlock’ed variable ND (LCD panel I believe) that would let you turn any camera into a global shutter camera or let you program rather exotic shutter animations for emulating different shutter effects.

Gavin Greenwalt
VFX
Seattle, WA


Re: Skintones - Are They Affected at the Sensor Level? And Motion Cadence Question

JD Houston
 


On Mar 29, 2018, at 1:30 PM, Adam Wilt <adam@...> wrote:

biggest advances in 24fps motion rendering ever, and I regret that the Time Filter didn’t get any wider exposure (pun intended) before Tessive was taken ov

It is still I availableI think as RealD TrueMotion (on the cloud even for processing "
  • Runs on MacOS, and coming soon to Linux and cloud based service from Sundog Media Toolkit.

But it seems to be one of those ideas everyone likes
but few people pay for.  No sure how they are doing these days.  I think Tony Davis is still at RealD.

Jim


Jim Houston
Consultant, Starwatcher Digital, Pasadena, CA


Re: Skintones - Are They Affected at the Sensor Level?And Motion Cadence Question

Gavin Greenwalt
 

“But isn’t the fade in/fade out lost when the frame is recorded or presented on a video display.”

Only if it doesn’t move to another pixel at all.  As soon as you pan the camera everything will fade in and out during the exposure so the motion blur will be soft.    The extreme example would be a specular highlight motion blurred.  Instead of it being a very digital straight line (bottom) it would be a soft gradient on each end of its motion blur path (top).


Gavin Greenwalt
VFX Supervisor
Seattle, WA


Re: Skintones - Are They Affected at the Sensor Level? And Motion Cadence Question

Keith Putnam
 

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 12:57 pm, <dhisur@...> wrote:
this underlying structure that generates the artefacts like judder.
24fps judder will exist in any 24fps capture system, no matter what medium is at the "film" plane.

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 01:35 pm, Adam Wilt wrote:
The mechanical shutter with its penumbral sweep effectively fades-in / fades-out its exposures
Yes, a spinning mirror shutter is not a global shutter; not all of the frame is exposed simultaneously.

Keith Putnam
Local 600 DIT
New York City


Re: Canon jumping on the LF bandwagon...

David Brillhart
 
Edited

The upside for me, as one who uses Canon regularly, is to finally have a FF camera in a form factor I cut my teeth on.  Decent viewfinder.  Shoulderability.  (A new word?) One that may be able to offer the balance of an Amira and the most recent sensor and camera technology.  The downside is waiting for the MkII version of the 700FF.  (Devilish smile.)

 

David Brillhart

Cinematographer, Sacramento

www.brillhart.com

410-707-3552 


Re: Canon jumping on the LF bandwagon...

Noel Sterrett
 

On 03/29/2018 04:23 PM, Jonathon Sendall wrote:
I think that has pushed shallow DOF more than most think.

Actually, I think the sweet spot for DOF is S35. Having shot an actual large format for some time, 8x10, I know well that to get the same depth of field with a larger format, more light, or a faster lens is necessary. Both more light and faster lenses are expensive.

There's no free lunch.

Cheers.
 
--

Noel Sterrett Admit One Pictures info@...


Re: Skintones - Are They Affected at the Sensor Level? And Motion Cadence Question

alister@...
 


On 29 Mar 2018, at 21:30, Adam Wilt <adam@...> wrote:

The mechanical shutter with its penumbral sweep effectively fades-in / fades-out its exposures; an electronic shutter has an instant-on / instant-off, square-wave exposure profile (I’m talking about the effect at any point on the sensor surface, quite apart from global vs. rolling effects over the entire sensor). That slight “rounding off” of the mechanical shutter’s exposure window reduces high-frequency aliasing that increases perceptible judder / strobing. 

But isn’t the fade in/fade out lost when the frame is recorded or presented on a video display. After all each individual isn’t faded in and out, it’s on or off. I can see how a mechanical shutter would add a fade effect on projection. But not when each frame is recorded as a video frame I would have thought the effect was lost unless the frame rate was several times the shutter speed.


Alister Chapman

DoP - Stereographer
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Re: Skintones - Are They Affected at the Sensor Level? And Motion Cadence Question

Adam Wilt
 

We projected at 2k in a good theatre and the results were 100% in favour of the mechanical shutter.
I had intended to constitute the tests but to include the Tessive filter…

The mechanical shutter with its penumbral sweep effectively fades-in / fades-out its exposures; an electronic shutter has an instant-on / instant-off, square-wave exposure profile (I’m talking about the effect at any point on the sensor surface, quite apart from global vs. rolling effects over the entire sensor). That slight “rounding off” of the mechanical shutter’s exposure window reduces high-frequency aliasing that increases perceptible judder / strobing. 

The Tessive Time Filter went even further, offering exposure profiles all the way from square-wave to nearly sinusoidal, and it yielded very smooth, highly watchable 24 fps images at pretty much any panning rate. At the time I thought it was one of the biggest advances in 24fps motion rendering ever, and I regret that the Time Filter didn’t get any wider exposure (pun intended) before Tessive was taken over.

Adam Wilt
technical services: consulting / coding / camerawork
Vancouver WA USA (no, not that Vancouver, the other one)


Re: Canon jumping on the LF bandwagon...

Jonathon Sendall
 

"As budgets shrink, I'm often shooting wide open to hide the lack of art direction"

I think that has pushed shallow DOF more than most think. I've certainly done it on small budgets a few times when the set wasn't particularly attractive and the budget for lighting equally so.

Jonathon Sendall
DP, London


Re: Canon jumping on the LF bandwagon...

Gavin Greenwalt
 

> I'd argue that the 5D initially caught on not because of the shallow depth of field but because it was an affordable way to buy an HD camera.

There were a million affordable HD cameras.  And a million 35mm adapters to deliver shallow DOF.   The 5D succeeded not because it was HD (it wasn’t very sharp) or cheap (there were cheaper HD cameras).  It succeeded because you didn’t need to buy a vibrating ground glass adapter.   As someone who went through film school in the infinitely deep focus era of the DVX100 I know that my aesthetic tastes have been forever corrupted by a lust for shallower depth of field. 

> When I started out, in the late 80s, there was an entire school of (mostly European) cinematographers who were shooting wide open on Super Speeds.


Sure and large format has come and gone over the decades in all of its incarnations.  IMAX never went away and certainly is partially responsible what with Christopher Nolan embracing IMAX during Batman.   But this specific bandwagon in my opinion is the same wagon that started rolling when still photographers suddenly could film at 24fps and started moving into the ranks of cinematographers, bringing with them a long history of working with Full Frame cameras and lenses.

Gavin Greenwalt
Seattle, WA


Re: Canon jumping on the LF bandwagon...

Art Adams <art.cml.only@...>
 

>In most instances iIt's laziness. 

It's also necessity. I have a job next week where I either have to shoot exteriors and hide the fact that there's nothing growing around us even though that's the point of the spot, or, if we switch to an interior, I have to make it look good given the fact that we're budgeted that day for natural light exteriors with grip gear and not to light a large interior.

As budgets shrink, I'm often shooting wide open to hide the lack of art direction, or the lack of lighting, or the lack of a location scout, or the lack of time to light properly.

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area


Re: Skintones - Are They Affected at the Sensor Level? And Motion Cadence Question

dhisur@...
 

IMHO, all current electronic cameras, are using a two axis grid (the photosites in lines and columns) and as such, anything to be acquired, will have this underlying structure, and when panning the camera, it's, in my opinion, this underlying structure that generates the artefacts like judder.
 
At Fotoquímica Films SpA we prefer to shoot on film. With Vision3 color negative platform and proper ECN-2 development (thus using the colour agent CD-3) we do get a very wide exposure latitude, and natural skin tones, and a kind of image that is tri-dimensional (because the emultion loaded on the camera is conformed by microscopic silver halides cristals).
BTW DFT Scanity HDR is a great scanner available in the industry, that delivers DPX RGB 16-bit log/flat image sequences. Other scanners available: Arri Scan, Filmight Northlight, LaserGraphics scanners etc.

But then there is also the on-going R&D from Eastman Kodak regarding the announced new Ektachrome 100D that may eventually set new standards in motion picture and photo color reversal.

Best regards,
Daniel Henriquez Ilic
Filmmaker 
Santiago de Chile


Re: Canon jumping on the LF bandwagon...

Art Adams <art.cml.only@...>
 

>I would also argue that “large format cinematography” is ultimately nothing more than “shallower depth of field cinematography” which definitely has been a stylistic ‘stampede’ even on s35

Sure, but that's not what you said. Shallower depth of field has been in for a while, but large format cinematography is a fairly recent development. One facilitates the other, but they are not the same thing. When I started out, in the late 80s, there was an entire school of (mostly European) cinematographers who were shooting wide open on Super Speeds.

Also, I'd argue that the 5D initially caught on not because of the shallow depth of field but because it was an affordable way to buy an HD camera. Initially the shallow depth of field was considered a huge headache.

>Hell, RED announced a FF35 (and Medium Format) camera nearly 10 years ago (along with a never released FF35 lens).

I attribute that to the fact that they were going after the stills market as well.

>If there has been pressure on Panavision and Arri it’s been from the low end with the Sonys, Sigmas and Canons of the world creeping closer and closer to feature film A Camera quality. 

I think Arri saw an opportunity to replace 65mm film with 65mm digital and went for it. Panavision's DXL was a response to that, and also a fairly logical choice given that they have a huge inventory of large format lenses collecting dust.

From my perspective, the shallow depth of field look came about because large format still cameras that shot video became a cheap option for budding filmmakers, not because filmmakers were naturally drawn to shallow depth of field.

>If anyone is joining a bandwagon it’s Arri in their recent rush to release 4k cameras without changing their winning sensor formula

I'm not sure where the rush came from... it's not like people haven't been expecting a UHD/4K Arri for literally years. And, currently, there's no way around physics, and given how crazy good the ALEV sensor functions, I'm not sure why someone would change up something that just works and has become the gold standard for color, noise and dynamic range for eight years. They'll have to change things up eventually, but right now the Alexa LF is large format simply because there's no need to mess up a good thing.

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area

1581 - 1600 of 1957