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CineGear Anyone?

Robert A. Ober
 

Hello List,

It was my pleasure meeting some of you two years ago and attending the screening of Cafe Society.

Unfortunately for others, I am in Hollywood again for CineGear on this fine Thursday night. I would love to meetup with any of you folks for adult beverages or whatever refreshments you prefer. Thinking of finding a Jazz club with some live music.

If you Technicolor folks are working late, I am across the street and wouldn’t mind a tour in exchange for buying the first round.

Hope y’all are doing well and good
Robert

Robert A. Ober
Houston, TX
www.infohou.com


Re: BAND PRO Venice screenings at Cinegear

David Brillhart
 

Thanks Randy.  That's a better time.
David Brillhart
DP, Sacramento


Re: BAND PRO Venice screenings at Cinegear

Randy Wedick
 

Slight change in schedule 

We will be projecting twice
12:45 and 1:15 

Two 3-4 min long pieces. 

Just qc’d them in P3 looks/sounds great.  Hope some of you can make it!

Randy Wedick
Band Pro


BAND PRO Venice screenings at Cinegear

Randy Wedick
 

In addition to the Sony screenings, Band Pro is showcasing our Venice short film TOKYO DANCE (which I shot in Japan w/ Thalia & EZ-1), as well as some macro/food material that I shot with Gary Adcock.

This happens right as Cinegear begins the 12:15pm Friday slot, so I'm not if everyone can make it, but the two films are very short (3 mins each) so maybe I can run them twice in the time slot I have.

The screening is at the main Paramount Theater on a huge screen in 4K.

Something quick to check out and see the imaging, contrast and color potential of this camera.  We shot in 11 locations with a lot of different qualities of light (soft, hard, rain, sun, sleet, underground, open fields, subway stations, beach, etc) and could provide you with a good glimpse at what's possible with the new sensor tech in the Venice.

Not the best time slot but if you can check it out I think you'll be impressed. 

Randy Wedick
Band Pro


Re: HDR mastering monitorsing dering for a buy this year, or

Sebastian Plamadeala
 

Hello,

Super discussions so far, thank you for your wonderful inputs.

Forgive me if i ask a newbie question, but i see Dolby says for Vision mastering, the monitor should have 12 bit depth.
What i do not get, is how you output 12bit from sdi (aja kona 4, etc) to hdmi (for instance to an Eizo), since the aja Hi5-4K-Plus can only output 10bit to the hdmi 2.0. Is there an sdi to hdmi box out there for Vision HDR?

Thank you!

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Nick Shaw <nick@...> wrote:

On 31 May 2018, at 09:46, Kevin Shaw <kevs@...> wrote:

BMD and resolve can send the HDR flag, but currently only in ultrastudio 4k extreme 3 because it requires HDMI 2.0

The low cost Mini Monitor 4K can also have the HDR metadata flags set by Resolve, without the need for additional external hardware. 

Nick (not Kevin or Steve!) Shaw

Workflow Consultant 
Antler Post
UK



Re: HDR mastering monitorsing dering for a buy this year, or

Steve Shaw
 

Should add/ask - if using a professional HDR display there should be no need for any metadata to be sent to the display to enable HDR mode.
The display should just be calibrated for an HDR input (PQ or HLG), and in the case of PQ with no tone mapping/roll off.

That should be it.

If you have a 'display' (read TV) that required metadata to enable its HDR mode, you should not be using it in a professional environment.

Steve
Light Illusion


Re: HDR mastering monitorsing dering for a buy this year, or

Nick Shaw
 


On 31 May 2018, at 09:46, Kevin Shaw <kevs@...> wrote:

BMD and resolve can send the HDR flag, but currently only in ultrastudio 4k extreme 3 because it requires HDMI 2.0

The low cost Mini Monitor 4K can also have the HDR metadata flags set by Resolve, without the need for additional external hardware. 

Nick (not Kevin or Steve!) Shaw

Workflow Consultant 
Antler Post
UK


Re: HDR mastering monitorsing dering for a buy this year, or

Steve Shaw
 

<quote>Regarding the LG C8 - Steve would know better than I, but yes they are quite easy to calibrate, but they have limitations as has been discussed.</quote>

They can only be calibrated for SDR (not HDR), and only through the use of an external LUT box, and a large profile set (10,000 patch measurements) as they have very non-linear volumetric colour errors.

The following graphs show the SDR volumetric issues in the same way as the previous HDR graphs.
The issues are obvious to see.



Not as 'bad' as when used for HDR, but there are still very obvious volumetric colour issues.
Again, due to the use of the white pixel.
But this time the errors can be corrected with a 3D LUT (via an external LUT box.)

Steve
Light Illusion


Re: HDR mastering monitorsing dering for a buy this year, or

Geoff Boyle
 

The cg318 that Eizo shipped to me shear ago was preloaded with those profiles.
They also emailed me some new firmware.

Geoff




On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 11:35 PM -0700, "Kevin Shaw" <kevs@...> wrote:

Hi Joseph
I do mean the CG318-4K. It does not ship with PQ or HLG but these can easily be added as a new preset using their colornavigator software and target profiles provided by Eizo. They supplied me with HLG, PQ300 nits and PQ1000 which simulates clipping at 1000 but of course is flatter, Contact me offline if you would like me to share those with you.

You are correct I would not call it HDR within the terms for mastering or viewing. But these profiles are useful for QC and generally understanding what HDR is about.
My point was that if I am looking for a mastering monitor as the thread ask, I would sooner have the Eizo than the LG or the Panasonic for that matter. You cannot grade HDR on any of them
HDR Mastering monitors all cost around £30k or more for now

The newer  CG319X will ship with HDR EOTF profiles, but afaik it is not yet available

Your analogy with BT2020 is good. Some monitors can accept a PQ signal, but do not meet the full spec. In the case of a TV the differences are managed with metadata, but thee is no place for that in mastering or production for that matter.

Best Kevin (not Steve or Nick - the Shaw thing is really confusing)

Disclaimer: I run ICA classes on HDR, and have received support from Dolby, Eizo and FSI. The next class is in London and will use a 2000 nit Dolby “Maui” display

Best
Kevin

Kevin Shaw, CSI :
colorist, instructor and consultant
t +44 7921. 677  369 
e
 kevs@...

finalcolor: www.finalcolor.com  ICA:          www.icolorist.com      
twitter:      www.twitter.com/kevscolor    linkedIn:    www.linkedin.com/in/kevscolor
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On 30 May 2018, at 19:03, Joseph Goldstone <jgoldstone@...> wrote:

On May 30, 2018, at 8:31 AM, Kevin Shaw <kevs@...> wrote:
[…]
For about the same or less than the LG  combo, and still less than the FSI XM65 and Panny TX, you could look at Eizo CG318-4k which supports HLG and PQ, but is only 350 nits, so definitely not a mastering monitor.

Is it possible you meant the recently-announced CG319X here, instead of the CG318-4K?

I have the latter, which did not ship with PQ and HLG support, and there is no firmware update on the EIZO site that could enable it (assuming such a capability could even be added as a firmware upgrade). For me, for R&D work, the CG318-4K is a great monitor, but at 350 nits I would not call it HDR. 

On the other hand, the CG319X is listed on their website as being new, and it does claim to support HLG and PQ. But it’s hard to call this an HDR monitor either; even the UHD Alliance Premium Certification provision for less-bright HDR monitors “not 1000 nits, but really deep blacks” can’t be used to make it HDR either: that path requires 540 nits and an ability to go down to 0.0005 nits. (The more-bright path to UHDA PC requires 1,000 nits but only requires you to go down to 0.05 nits.)

I think we’ll see monitors casually mentioning their HDR-ness much as we saw monitors casually mentioning their Rec2020-ness, when what was really happening with the latter was that the monitor would accept a Rec2020-encoded signal, not that the monitor could accurately display all valid Rec2020-encoded values.

Best—
—joseph

Image Science Engineer
ARRI, Inc. SBD (Burbank) / ARRI Cine Technik IS (München)







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Re: HDR mastering monitorsing dering for a buy this year, or

Kevin Shaw
 

Quote: Hi Nick, instead of the AJA Hi5 4k plus, are there any similarly priced options from BlackMagic?

Hi George 
that was me, Kevin, not Nick :-) Sorry for the Shaw confusions

There are no similar boxes from BMD, but these still work with Resolve. The AJA hi5 is an SDI to HDMI convertor, so you output your BMD card into the AJA and all is good

The other device I know of is the HDFury, which is cheaper and a bit more fiddly. The HDFury is an HDMI splitter and again that can be fed from a BMD card for resolve support

BMD and resolve can send the HDR flag, but currently only in ultrastudio 4k extreme 3 because it requires HDMI 2.0

Regarding the LG C8 - Steve would know better than I, but yes they are quite easy to calibrate, but they have limitations as has been discussed.

Kevin Shaw, CSI :
colorist, instructor and consultant
t +44 7921. 677  369 
e
 kevs@...

finalcolor: www.finalcolor.com  ICA:          www.icolorist.com      
twitter:      www.twitter.com/kevscolor    linkedIn:    www.linkedin.com/in/kevscolor
------------------
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Re: HDR mastering monitorsing dering for a buy this year, or

Kevin Shaw
 

Hi Joseph
I do mean the CG318-4K. It does not ship with PQ or HLG but these can easily be added as a new preset using their colornavigator software and target profiles provided by Eizo. They supplied me with HLG, PQ300 nits and PQ1000 which simulates clipping at 1000 but of course is flatter, Contact me offline if you would like me to share those with you.

You are correct I would not call it HDR within the terms for mastering or viewing. But these profiles are useful for QC and generally understanding what HDR is about.
My point was that if I am looking for a mastering monitor as the thread ask, I would sooner have the Eizo than the LG or the Panasonic for that matter. You cannot grade HDR on any of them
HDR Mastering monitors all cost around £30k or more for now

The newer  CG319X will ship with HDR EOTF profiles, but afaik it is not yet available

Your analogy with BT2020 is good. Some monitors can accept a PQ signal, but do not meet the full spec. In the case of a TV the differences are managed with metadata, but thee is no place for that in mastering or production for that matter.

Best Kevin (not Steve or Nick - the Shaw thing is really confusing)

Disclaimer: I run ICA classes on HDR, and have received support from Dolby, Eizo and FSI. The next class is in London and will use a 2000 nit Dolby “Maui” display

Best
Kevin

Kevin Shaw, CSI :
colorist, instructor and consultant
t +44 7921. 677  369 
e
 kevs@...

finalcolor: www.finalcolor.com  ICA:          www.icolorist.com      
twitter:      www.twitter.com/kevscolor    linkedIn:    www.linkedin.com/in/kevscolor
------------------
This message was sent by Kevin Shaw of Finalcolor Ltd. and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the addressee or authorised to receive this for the addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose or take any action based on this message or any information herein. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. It is believed, but not warranted, that this e-mail, including any attachments, is virus free. However, you should take full responsibility for virus checking. Thank you for your cooperation.
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On 30 May 2018, at 19:03, Joseph Goldstone <jgoldstone@...> wrote:

On May 30, 2018, at 8:31 AM, Kevin Shaw <kevs@...> wrote:
[…]
For about the same or less than the LG  combo, and still less than the FSI XM65 and Panny TX, you could look at Eizo CG318-4k which supports HLG and PQ, but is only 350 nits, so definitely not a mastering monitor.

Is it possible you meant the recently-announced CG319X here, instead of the CG318-4K?

I have the latter, which did not ship with PQ and HLG support, and there is no firmware update on the EIZO site that could enable it (assuming such a capability could even be added as a firmware upgrade). For me, for R&D work, the CG318-4K is a great monitor, but at 350 nits I would not call it HDR. 

On the other hand, the CG319X is listed on their website as being new, and it does claim to support HLG and PQ. But it’s hard to call this an HDR monitor either; even the UHD Alliance Premium Certification provision for less-bright HDR monitors “not 1000 nits, but really deep blacks” can’t be used to make it HDR either: that path requires 540 nits and an ability to go down to 0.0005 nits. (The more-bright path to UHDA PC requires 1,000 nits but only requires you to go down to 0.05 nits.)

I think we’ll see monitors casually mentioning their HDR-ness much as we saw monitors casually mentioning their Rec2020-ness, when what was really happening with the latter was that the monitor would accept a Rec2020-encoded signal, not that the monitor could accurately display all valid Rec2020-encoded values.

Best—
—joseph

Image Science Engineer
ARRI, Inc. SBD (Burbank) / ARRI Cine Technik IS (München)







This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet.




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Re: HDR mastering monitorsing dering for a buy this year, or

Video Assist Hungary
 

I ended up putting that data in a small Google Spreadsheet. Here is the link. Anyone can edit, so please feel free to add/edit information.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uq-MqtTfP-ixS_D0oPPEMn2nKMpk9YeyzFm1QH0DhEY/edit?usp=sharing

-----------------------------

Balazs Rozgonyi IMDb
CEO - technical director / VA - DIT -  3D

0-24 central phone: +36 70 626 2354
0-24 email: info@...

Video Assist Hungary - Technology for your vision IMDb IMDbPro
The only video rental place in Hungary!




Re: HDR mastering monitorsing dering for a buy this year, or

Video Assist Hungary
 

So can someone help me clear up the confusion?

Sony BVM-X300 V2: RGB OLED (1000 cd/m2)
Sony PVM-X550: WOLED (400 cd/m2 ?)
FSI XM-310K: RGB LCD (2000 cd/m2)
FSI XM650U: WOLED (900 cd/m2)
Eizo CG-319X: RGB LCD (350 cd/m2?)
Eizo CG3145: RGB LCD (1000 cd/m2)
Panasonic TX-65EZ952B: WOLED (900 cd/m2?)
LG 65C8: WOLED (900 cd/m2?)

I was told on NAB at the FSI booth that 'their' LG panel is newer than the one in the X550, which has worse quality. But I believe both are WOLED? That would explain the difference in peak brightness


-----------------------------

Balazs Rozgonyi IMDb
CEO - technical director / VA - DIT -  3D

0-24 central phone: +36 70 626 2354

Video Assist Hungary - Technology for your vision IMDb IMDbPro
The only video rental place in Hungary!


Re: HDR mastering monitorsing dering for a buy this year, or

Steve Shaw
 

<quote>...instead of the AJA Hi5 4k plus, are there any similarly priced options from BlackMagic that do the same thing? (HDR flag capable etc). Just to integrate better with Resolve. 

And are these LG OLED C8 monitors relatively easy to calibrate?</quote>

The HDfury devices can trigger HDR...
But you cannot grade on any home HDR TV as they all have in-built roll-off/tone mapping.
(Ignoring the issues previously defined above.)
Any mastering HDR display must clip at its peak luma value.

It is impossible to grade on a display with roll-off/tone mapping, as you will have no idea where you are actually setting the highlight grade.
This makes home HDR TVs totally unsuitable for any professional application.

Steve
Light Illusion


Re: HDR mastering monitorsing dering for a buy this year, or

Steve Shaw
 

I actually like the way FSI define their range of 'HDR' displays.

Monitoring HDR 
Designed for production and quality control applications. Useful as a cost-effective HDR pre-visualization tool. Monitors with HDR Preview will have more limited peak luminance and/or contrast ratio capabilities than HDR Monitoring or HDR Mastering displays. There are three HDR Preview modes: HLG, PQ with hard clip near monitor peak luminance, or PQ with a soft roll of highlights.
 
Preview HDR 
Suitable for viewing HDR content in applications that do not require all primary mastering monitor qualifications.
 
Mastering HDR 
Designed specifically for HDR content creation and review. Displays in this category meet key performance benchmarks for mastering the majority of HDR deliverables.

You need to define where your needs sit, and which displays fits into what category.
For example, we are working on a new HDR display from Konvision - 650 nits peak.
Similar to the eizo CG319X in application?
(We are still working on the display's development, as it's not yet openly available, so time will tell...)

Steve
Light Illusion


Re: HDR mastering monitorsing dering for a buy this year, or

George
 

"The LG OLED 65C8 needs a  LUT box and HDR flag capable input device such as AJA Hi5 4k plus to do what these monitors do (they are all white OLED) but I am not saying it is in the same ball park, just it is an option. "

Hi Nick, instead of the AJA Hi5 4k plus, are there any similarly priced options from BlackMagic that do the same thing? (HDR flag capable etc). Just to integrate better with Resolve.

And are these LG OLED C8 monitors relatively easy to calibrate?
Thank you Nick!! Mike


Re: HDR mastering monitorsing dering for a buy this year, or

Steve Shaw
 
Edited

Just so every one really has the correct information...

The Panasonic TX-65EZ952B uses the LG WOLED screen, as does every large format 'OLED' out there.
The graphs I posted are actually FROM the Panasonic TV.

All WOLEDs suffer exactly the same issues - and more, when you start looking at thermal instability too.

It is simple colour science fact that using a 'white' pixel will compromise volumetric colour capability, as the RGB pixels will always run out of range (brightness) before the white pixel.

The truth is WOLEDs work ok up to about 100-200 nits, where the white pixel has no effect/benefit, and may as well not be there.
Above that range, the white pixel causes huge volumetric issues, as can be seen in the graphs I posted, so may as well not be there...

WOLED is a home TV technology simply to make 'bright' pictures.
It has no place in the professional world.
(And I would never have one at home either...)

Steve
Light Illusion


Re: HDR mastering monitorsing dering for a buy this year, or

Joseph Goldstone <jgoldstone@...>
 

On May 30, 2018, at 8:31 AM, Kevin Shaw <kevs@...> wrote:
[…]
For about the same or less than the LG  combo, and still less than the FSI XM65 and Panny TX, you could look at Eizo CG318-4k which supports HLG and PQ, but is only 350 nits, so definitely not a mastering monitor.

Is it possible you meant the recently-announced CG319X here, instead of the CG318-4K?

I have the latter, which did not ship with PQ and HLG support, and there is no firmware update on the EIZO site that could enable it (assuming such a capability could even be added as a firmware upgrade). For me, for R&D work, the CG318-4K is a great monitor, but at 350 nits I would not call it HDR. 

On the other hand, the CG319X is listed on their website as being new, and it does claim to support HLG and PQ. But it’s hard to call this an HDR monitor either; even the UHD Alliance Premium Certification provision for less-bright HDR monitors “not 1000 nits, but really deep blacks” can’t be used to make it HDR either: that path requires 540 nits and an ability to go down to 0.0005 nits. (The more-bright path to UHDA PC requires 1,000 nits but only requires you to go down to 0.05 nits.)

I think we’ll see monitors casually mentioning their HDR-ness much as we saw monitors casually mentioning their Rec2020-ness, when what was really happening with the latter was that the monitor would accept a Rec2020-encoded signal, not that the monitor could accurately display all valid Rec2020-encoded values.

Best—
—joseph

Image Science Engineer
ARRI, Inc. SBD (Burbank) / ARRI Cine Technik IS (München)







This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet.




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Re: HDR mastering monitorsing dering for a buy this year, or

Kevin Shaw
 

I’ll summarise my experience with HDR screens

AFAIK Dolby approve monitors for Dolby Vision rather than certify them as such. 
The Sony x300, and Eizo CG3145 are both approved for Dolby Vision mastering. 
They are quite different technologies as has been pointed out, but both rated at 1000 nits though the Eizo has no dimming. Of the two, my preference is the Eizo which is easier to use and better  to calibrate (I have calibrated both). The Sony is definitely not calibrated out of the box - typically the white point color temperature is too high and the blacks a bit low. 

Dolby Monitors are not available to buy (but very nice to work on)

The FSI xm310k is stunning and much better than either of the above (at least twice as bright), but not yet shipping and quite a bit more expensive

The FSI XM65OU is a very nice monitor but because of its WOLEDs is not approved for Dolby Vision, and I accept Steve's comments on using it for HDR mastering. I would recommend it over the Panasonic TX-65EZ952B but it is more expensive. The FSI xm65OU, and Panasonic TX-65EZ952B are really better as QC monitors rather than critical mastering. 

The LG OLED 65C8 needs a  LUT box and HDR flag capable input device such as AJA Hi5 4k plus to do what these monitors do (they are all white OLED) but I am not saying it is in the same ball park, just it is an option. 

For about the same or less than the LG  combo, and still less than the FSI XM65 and Panny TX, you could look at Eizo CG318-4k which supports HLG and PQ, but is only 350 nits, so definitely not a mastering monitor.

For the record I agree with Phil's blog, but it is only fair to point out that he works for a company that sells Eizo. 

Bottom line, it is expensive to get into HDR mastering, and no one knows how long it will be before the prices tumble.
Postium showed a very nice 31” 4k 1000 nit display at NAB, but it cost the same as the FSI xm310k, making the FSI desirable and great value!
Canon, Atomos and Boland also come up in conversation and they have their uses, but in my mind they are better on set than in the grade. Just my opinion, don’t hate me for that.

My 2 cents anyway
Kevin

Kevin Shaw, CSI :
colorist, instructor and consultant
t +44 7921. 677  369 
e
 kevs@...

finalcolor: www.finalcolor.com  ICA:          www.icolorist.com      
twitter:      www.twitter.com/kevscolor    linkedIn:    www.linkedin.com/in/kevscolor
------------------
This message was sent by Kevin Shaw of Finalcolor Ltd. and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the addressee or authorised to receive this for the addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose or take any action based on this message or any information herein. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. It is believed, but not warranted, that this e-mail, including any attachments, is virus free. However, you should take full responsibility for virus checking. Thank you for your cooperation.
------------------






On 30 May 2018, at 14:00, Dado Valentic <dado@...> wrote:

Also the only screens that can be used for Dolby mastering are those made by Dolby.


Re: HDR mastering monitorsing dering for a buy this year, or

Riza Pacalioglu
 

Panasonic screen I am referring to is using WRGB (LGD) OLED panels and does not have problems described in the previous post.”

 

Steve’s post has the caption ‘WRGB’ on the test image, hence showing errors of the type of panel Panasonic uses. Have you missed that or do you disagree with Steve? If the latter maybe you can explain more.

 

Thank you.

 

 

Riza Pacalioglu B.Sc. M.Sc. M.A.

Producer

South of England

 

 

1321 - 1340 of 1998