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Frames from PreLight
Once again, matched exposures and saturation in ACES but in Prelight this time. Normal IDT, contrast .85
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Vectorscopes from Prelight
Same as before but from Prelight this time. In reverse order.
Varicam, Helium, F65, F55, C700, Alexa-SXT       |
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Re: Vectorscopes of various cameras
Art Adams <art.cml.only@...>
Without seeing parade RGB or what the chart looked like it's hard to know if the cameras are perfectly white balanced. The Alexa red is a little on the cool side, which is what I would expect, but the Canons and Sonys are as well. Canon reds often lean toward yellow/green, so that seems odd. Sony reds are neutral to warm. My guess is the light source was a little cooler than the cameras were expecting. Based on the linear smeariness around blue in all cameras I'm guessing this was a roughly tungsten light source.
Also, modern cameras don't put the colors near the boxes anyway as that's way too saturated for modern tastes. Sonys will in Rec 709 mode, but nobody uses that. (I hope nobody uses that.) The F55 and F65 look very wrong. There's no way that much smear in blue would result in acceptable images. I've never seen that before. It's got to be an error somewhere. |
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Re: Vectorscopes of various cameras
Argyris_Theos_cml
Did I speak of white balance? Colorists usually check white balance on the vectorscope, but they do this evaluating the center of the display. It appears that Geoff has properly balanced all images. To the best of my knowledge the polygon points are giving information on color saturation and on the vector angle. Best Argyris Theos, gsc DoP, Athens Greece, +306944725315 Skype Argyris.Theos via iPhone |
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Re: Vectorscopes of various cameras
Nick Shaw
On 11 Dec 2017, at 15:32, Art Adams <art.cml.only@...> wrote: The F55 and F65 look very wrong. There's no way that much smear in blue would result in acceptable images. I've never seen that before. It's got to be an error somewhere. That smearing is the artefact I was referring to from the issue with the S-Log3 IDT in Resolve. It isn't always obvious on images, but on a vectorscope of a Chroma du Monde it sticks out like a sore thumb. I am not running the latest version of Resolve, and I gather they have changed some things there. Geoff, what Resolve version are your grabs from? Nick Shaw Workflow Consultant Antler Post Suite 87 30 Red Lion Street Richmond Surrey TW9 1RB UK +44 (0)20 8892 3377 +44 (0)7778 217 555 |
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Re: Vectorscopes of various cameras
Art Adams <art.cml.only@...>
No, I did.
That's a sloppy way to do it. As most of us should be able to see, the dot in the center of the image is not at all a clean, perfectly round dot. (This is not unusual.) Given how distorted each dot is, I'm not sure how you'd know each is centered. Most are ovals. A couple are clearly not centered at all. This doesn't mean that the image isn't white balanced, just that it's impossible to tell on a vector scope alone. Q: How can one determine whether a distorted soft-edged oval is centered on a target? A: One can't. Parade RGB is the most accurate way of checking white balance. Black balance can be verified by looking at a scope, but that's because black is a small, clean white dot on a vector scope, not a sloppy fuzzy distorted oval. I'm not saying Geoff didn't white balance. I am saying that I can't explain, from this alone, why these colors are not appearing the way I'd expect them to appear, and white balance could be a culprit, especially as cameras that I expect to make reds cool are making them too cool, and cameras that reproduce warm reds are rendering them as perfectly red or blueish. The super saturated hues are smeared like crazy, which is not right. They should be outside of the targets, as the Chroma Match chart contains some very saturated hues that are meant for use with P3 (I *think* they are, anyway—they may just be super saturated examples that don't align to anything, I don't remember) but not smeared like that.
It's not clear to me at all. I'm not saying that he didn't, only that it's impossible to tell from scopes alone. The JPEGs posted do appear to match very well, and appear neutral, but there's something going on with red hue angles that's not right, and the cool colors seem distorted as well—not in hue, but saturation. It's what happens if you take matrixing to an extreme, although I've not seen it that extreme before.
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Re: Vectorscopes of various cameras
Argyris_Theos_cml
In that case and with all due respect I believe there was no reason to quote my text. Argyris Theos, gsc DoP, Athens Greece, +306944725315 Skype Argyris.Theos via iPhone |
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Re: Vectorscopes of various cameras
Luis Gomes <gomes.luis@...>
we don't! check white balance on a vector-scope!
Luis @finland having the audacity of calling himself a colourist more like a QC expert |
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Re: Vectorscopes of various cameras
Tom Tcimpidis
I refuse to get drawn in to yet another senseless battle of semantics and procedures but will simply say that long-time, experienced VCs have been using the vectorscope to white balance for eons… They know exactly how to interpret the fuzziness and lack of roundness… It is obviously not the only tool for the task but can work very well by itself or in conjunction with others in the right hands…
Tom Very old L.A. VC and tech maven
_,_ |
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Re: Vectorscopes of various cameras
Geoff Boyle
The cameras were all in preset as it says on the web pages for the tests, it also lists the lights, BB&S area $* so daylight and some of the most accurate lights I’ve used!
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I then balanced in Resolve using saturation only and entering up the vector scope. Contrast not saturation was at .85 Exposure was corrected to give mid grey at 50%, some of the cameras came in at tis without alteration. The Resolve Vectorscopes were X2, I couldn’t make this adjustment in the Prelight ones, I wish I could. Otherwise everything was bog standard.
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Re: Vectorscopes of various cameras
Geoff Boyle
Correction
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I then balanced in Resolve using Offset only entering up the vectorscope. It’s in Prelight that I used Saturation. Whilst the centring of the vectorscope may not be perfect it’s as close as I could get.
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Re: Vectorscopes of various cameras
Geoff Boyle
Now it gets really weird.
I’m trying to test the CTL that Nick Shaw sent me but I can’t because whatever I do I can’t get a non-IDT result from Resolve 14.1 F55 with Resolve Sony RAW IDT  Sony F55 with no IDT  I shouldn’t get anything like this without an IDT, I’ve checked that the system is working fine by removing IDT’s for Alexa, Canon & Varicam and they all work as expected. |
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Re: Vectorscopes of various cameras
Luis Gomes <gomes.luis@...>
Woa. I am talking about now versus 1982 when I did use the vector scope because I did not had access to a parade waveform monitor.
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Of course I keep an eye on all five calibration scopes. But to judge white balance on a vector scope is spot on only if you have a reference. Again with this group one has to be crystal clear on things. Where Mike Most? Luís. Senseless assignments since 1982 Finland. On Tue, 12 Dec 2017 at 7.13 Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote:
-- Gomes.luis@... http://fi.linkedin.com/pub/luis-gomes/20/11b/335/ Freelancer video Professional. Finland. 
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Re: Vectorscopes of various cameras
Nick Shaw
On 12 Dec 2017, at 05:12, Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote: I’m trying to test the CTL that Nick Shaw sent me but I can’t because whatever I do I can’t get a non-IDT result from Resolve 14.1 I'm not running Resolve 14, so I can't test. I guess they've changed how things work. A raw file needs to be decoded to some colour space. In Resolve 12.5 with an F65 RAW clip it would default to S-Gamut3.Cine and S-Log3 (greyed out, so you couldn't change it) so I could apply my IDT. Given that the "no IDT" version in your new screen grabs looks far better than the one with the Sony RAW IDT, I suspect that Resolve is requesting ACES data directly from the Sony RAW SDK, so no IDT is required. I don't know exactly what the "Sony RAW" IDT does, but it certainly doesn't seem to doing anything good in this situation. What it "should" do is not actually apply a transform, but simply set a flag which says "ask for ACES from the SDK". But this seems like it may be happening anyway. Nick Shaw Workflow Consultant Antler Post Suite 87 30 Red Lion Street Richmond Surrey TW9 1RB UK +44 (0)20 8892 3377 +44 (0)7778 217 555 |
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Re: Wondering if Sony Catalyst Browse lists SGamut/SLog2 as "User defined curve9"
Seth Goldin
On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 10:02 PM Robert A. Ober <robob@...> wrote: Last time I tried it Resolve was able to read it fine. Click on a clip and go to Inspector and make sure it is showing everything. I assure you that this is not the case.😉 I'm on Resolve every day, with XAVC footage almost every day. There are all sorts of metadata in XAVC-I and XAVC-S that are not accessible in Resolve's Metadata panel, but those metadata are indeed available in Catalyst Browse and Catalyst Prepare. Seth -- S E T H G O L D I N Director of Production Technology and Workflow | Freethink phone: +1.757.739.5424 web: freethinkmedia.com twitter: @sethgoldin |
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Re: Wondering if Sony Catalyst Browse lists SGamut/SLog2 as "User defined curve9"
Robert A. Ober
On 12/18/17 12:56, Seth Goldin wrote:
_____________________________________ Thanks Seth, I appreciate the correction. I might actually have to use Catalyst Browse occasionally. I usually shoot Slog3/S-Gamut3.cine and don't usually have a problem in Resolve but I know getting footage from others can be a nightmare. Have some good Holidays, Robert PS: We should harass BMD about this. Robert A. Ober IT Consultant, Vidcaster, & Freelancer www.infohou.com Houston, TX |
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Camera evaluations C200, EVA & Ursa MP
OK, I'll be doing this evaluation in stages.
The test files are here bear in mind that they're camera originals and therefore very large files. |
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Camera evaluations C200, EVA & Ursa MP
Colin Elves
Thanks Geoff!
Did you shoot over and under exposure tests as well? Plus any high ISO tests? All modern cameras seem to (pretty much) perform equally well when exposed correctly - it’s more when you push them you get to see the differences! Colin Elves DP: london, Berlin and ting. |
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Re: Camera evaluations C200, EVA & Ursa MP
Geoff Boyle
I did over/unders of the C200 & UrsaMP in July and they’re available for download.
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The EVA wasn’t available then and I’m doing the current tests at home and don’t have enough light available to do these. I will shoot high ISO but in part 2 of the evaluation, ie in real shooting conditions.
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Re: Camera evaluations C200, EVA & Ursa MP
Colin Elves
The EVA wasn’t available then and I’m doing the current tests at home and don’t have enough light available to do these.Oh. That’s a shame! I’ve shot Over-Under tests for the EVA1 at home as well. I can share the files with you if you like, but I’m not sure how comparable they will be - it’s just my fat face with an old Gretamacbeth chart, a TLS focus chart and a can of coke and Sprite (to indicate colour accuracy) - shot on an old Canon FD. But I can make the files available if people want. Or I’m happy to duplicate your tests if someone can help sort the right lenses and charts! (Currently I’m in Berlin) Merry Christmas big man! Colin Elves, DP, Berlin/London. |
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