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Re: Creating the cleanest noise free blacks on Sony FX9 shooting slog3
Cynthia Brett Webster
"TLDR; Sony removed ISO for CineEI, to achieve clean blacks, over expose in camera and compensate in post." Alas, after explaining this "please lower the exposure in post - after overexposing on set for a cleaner signal" to the directors, producers, editors, and colorists... It always looks good, but it usually comes back a bit too bright (for my taste anyway). On Thu, Mar 16, 2023, 11:15 AM Gabriel Devereux via cml.news <gabjol=me.com@...> wrote: Annoyingly, Sony in CineEI (SLog3 Sgc3.C) has removed internal gain for acquisition. |
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Re: Creating the cleanest noise free blacks on Sony FX9 shooting slog3
On this topic, I just saw this: https://www.xdcam-user.com/2023/03/you-dont-always-need-to-over-expose-s-log3/
----------------------------------------------- Nezih Savaşkan
Director of Photography + Camera Operator-----------------------------------------------
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Re: Creating the cleanest noise free blacks on Sony FX9 shooting slog3
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 09:02 PM, Leonard Levy wrote:
I am pretty sure that all of Sony's standard LUTs designed for slog3/sgamut3(.cine) are Data Levels in, Legal Video Levels out. Resolve works in Data Levels at it's corse, but you can choose to have a project in either Data or Video. If you are editing slog3 material in Resolve, but your deliverable is to be rec709 compliant, then I am pretty sure your project should be set to Video Levels, and you will be bringing the slog3 into the realms of that either with a LUT, or by grading, or with a CST. ----------------------------------------------- Nezih Savaşkan
Director of Photography + Camera Operator-----------------------------------------------
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Re: Creating the cleanest noise free blacks on Sony FX9 shooting slog3
Thank you Leonard for your detailed response. Appreciate it.
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Kris Denton
Cinematographer Los Angeles Ph +1 310 344 5159 www.krisdenton.com IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0219845/ On Mar 16, 2023, at 12:22 PM, Leonard Levy <leonardlevydp@...> wrote: Kris , At this point any even mildly experienced post person has plenty of experience with Log footage and it is routinely overexposed by very many if not most people. The standard process (and its critical) is to adjust exposure before applying the LUT rather than to bother with LUTs that are adjusted for overexposure. Simply lower the overall exposure so it fits within the range that LUT expects and so there is no highlight compression and the picture will look correct. I haven't bothered to even instruct Post about this in a long time. If your image material stays within the normal exposure range you can set your Cine EI as much as 2 stops under the Sony rating with no highlight compression . Its completely safe . Log is designed to give you over 2 stops of highlight latitude but that's at the expense of clean blacks so by overexposing you will be safe. If you use Cine EI you should see the proper exposure on your monitor. In post you'll have to have to apply the LUT and lower the exposure to adjust exposure. Catalyst Browse can do this for you as was suggested. If you are really worried about Post you don't have to shoot SLog , simply shoot in 709: s- Cinetone, a Hypergamma or even Std Gamma . I like Hypergamma 4 but Hypergamma 1 would be fine also. Standard gamma is just old fashioned 709 video . It will look fine if you don't have very bright things in your shot. We do it all the time for green screen. I doubt you will have far Red contamination on an FX9 , but if so you would see it in red color on black material . Otherwise no need for special filters. It is a good idea to perform an Auto Black Balance, but I'm pretty sure that's a separate menu item on the FX9 , not the same as APR , though I could be wrong . Lastly - Yes Neat Video in post is an incredible tool for eliminating noise. Leonard Levy, DP San Rafael, CA |
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Re: Creating the cleanest noise free blacks on Sony FX9 shooting slog3
Leonard Levy
Haha, Nezih, You're certainly right that a lot of people get confused about data levels and legal levels, but I don't think that's confined or even specific to Slog or Luts. It just is inherently confusing , but I think its more an issue of how your Post workflow is set up than which LUT's you use. I do recall that in LUTCalc you had to specify how you wanted them, so I guess its one more thing to be aware of . I just use the standard Sony Lut's - are those data or Legal? Gosh I don't even know, but I do know that Resolve works in Data. Nevertheless if you are going to use LUT's at all, at a minimum everyone needs to know how to correct exposure with them. Of course if its just your director looking at today's footage, better have a talk and send a note along with the footage. Usually in that case though the director is afraid of Slog anyway so he/she requests 709. Leonard Levy, DP San Rafael, CA |
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Re: Creating the cleanest noise free blacks on Sony FX9 shooting slog3
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 07:22 PM, Leonard Levy wrote:
I wouldn't necessarily assume that. Sony's CineEI has been around for over a decade now, but I still see mistakes being made. For example, a lot of people don't know that when capturing slog3/sgamut3(.cine) material to an external recorder such as an Atomos or Blackmagic and recording to ProRes 422, this is typically Legal Video Levels, whereas slog3/sgamut3(.cine) is meant to be Data Levels (that is what is being kicked out of the SDI stream. They then use a LUT that may be expecting slog3/sgamut3.cine XAVC (which would be Data Levels) and so the transformation will be wrong. On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 07:22 PM, Leonard Levy wrote:
That's correct. APR is "Automatic Pixel Restoration" to fix dead pixels from things like cosmic radiation.
I've got into the habit of running both (APR first) before any important shoot. Make sure the body cap is on and no light can get onto the sensor. Allow the camera to warm up for 20 minutes or so before running for best results. ----------------------------------------------- Nezih Savaşkan
Director of Photography + Camera Operator-----------------------------------------------
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Re: Creating the cleanest noise free blacks on Sony FX9 shooting slog3
Leonard Levy
Kris , At this point any even mildly experienced post person has plenty of experience with Log footage and it is routinely overexposed by very many if not most people. The standard process (and its critical) is to adjust exposure before applying the LUT rather than to bother with LUTs that are adjusted for overexposure. Simply lower the overall exposure so it fits within the range that LUT expects and so there is no highlight compression and the picture will look correct. I haven't bothered to even instruct Post about this in a long time. If your image material stays within the normal exposure range you can set your Cine EI as much as 2 stops under the Sony rating with no highlight compression . Its completely safe . Log is designed to give you over 2 stops of highlight latitude but that's at the expense of clean blacks so by overexposing you will be safe. If you use Cine EI you should see the proper exposure on your monitor. In post you'll have to have to apply the LUT and lower the exposure to adjust exposure. Catalyst Browse can do this for you as was suggested. If you are really worried about Post you don't have to shoot SLog , simply shoot in 709: s- Cinetone, a Hypergamma or even Std Gamma . I like Hypergamma 4 but Hypergamma 1 would be fine also. Standard gamma is just old fashioned 709 video . It will look fine if you don't have very bright things in your shot. We do it all the time for green screen. I doubt you will have far Red contamination on an FX9 , but if so you would see it in red color on black material . Otherwise no need for special filters. It is a good idea to perform an Auto Black Balance, but I'm pretty sure that's a separate menu item on the FX9 , not the same as APR , though I could be wrong . Lastly - Yes Neat Video in post is an incredible tool for eliminating noise. Leonard Levy, DP San Rafael, CA |
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Re: Creating the cleanest noise free blacks on Sony FX9 shooting slog3
George,
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Yes I believe it did help and in a controlled environment I think this would be something I would consider. When you are rating at a lower EI are you in control of the post? I often will shoot something for a production that might be just a single interview for a larger project. In this regard if you were to rate at a lower EI and post ingests by putting a regular rec 709 LUT over it then it will obviously look overexposed…..and a whole lot of uninformed eyes will see that before it gets properly graded…..giving folks post notes on how your footage needs to be processed just is not practical in the real world in my experience of the doc world. But in a project where you had control or a relationship with post I see rating the camera lower definitely is a help. Kris Kris Denton Cinematographer
Los Angeles Ph +1 310 344 5159 www.krisdenton.com IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0219845/
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Re: Creating the cleanest noise free blacks on Sony FX9 shooting slog3
So did you find that rating the camera at a lower EI helped?
I find that Slog3 as designed by Sony is biased towards protecting highlights at the expense of clean blacks, so in any controlled lighting situation, I regularly rate at a lower EI and haven't had any issues. -- ---------- George Hupka Director/DP Saskatoon, Canada Listmum, Cinematography Mailing List |
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Re: Creating the cleanest noise free blacks on Sony FX9 shooting slog3
Hi Kris, My two cents would be not to forget to black balance the camera too. On the FX9 it's APR. Cheers, On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 at 07:43, Cynthia Brett Webster <cyndustries.mail@...> wrote:
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Re: Creating the cleanest noise free blacks on Sony FX9 shooting slog3
Gabriel Devereux
Annoyingly, Sony in CineEI (SLog3 Sgc3.C) has removed internal gain for acquisition.
Re SNR and ‘clean blacks’ it’s all about having a higher signal to noise, so by that logic if you increase your signal level - exposure, higher above your noise floor (reset noise, thermal noise) and other differentiations that causes fluctuations and therefore a difference in gradient between pixels will give you a cleaner black.
From a primitive standpoint all ISO does is exposure compensation for over exposing or under exposing the camera. If you reduce your ISO you inherently overexpose your camera, increasing your signal to your noise level, resulting in a cleaner black.
TLDR; Sony removed ISO for CineEI, to achieve clean blacks, over expose in camera and compensate in post.
**** In future Gabriel will remember to sign his posts with his full name, job/title, and location, as required by CML rules**** Signed, Your friendly neighbourhood Listmum |
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Re: Creating the cleanest noise free blacks on Sony FX9 shooting slog3
Cheers Art,
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Yes thank you for that. Kris Kris Denton
Cinematographer Los Angeles Ph +1 310 344 5159 www.krisdenton.com IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0219845/
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Creating the cleanest noise free blacks on Sony FX9 shooting slog3
Something else you can try is rating the camera at a different EI.
Historically I’ve been very noise averse. One trick I would use is to rate cameras slower and then use a post LUT created through this website:
https://cameramanben.github.io/LUTCalc/
ARRI post LUTs will automatically adjust for the EI. For cameras whose post LUTs don’t do that, LUTCalc did the job nicely. And it’s free (online) or cheap (Apple app store).
-Art
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Re: Creating the cleanest noise free blacks on Sony FX9 shooting slog3
Hi Cynthia,
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That was very kind of you to spend so much time on your response. I think my takeaway from this is that I am being overly sensitive to the noise and that I should just keep doing what I’m doing. I’ve owned these cameras for three years and have been shooting with video cameras as an owner/operator for four decades so I would not call myself a novice. I shoot docs primarily and have never had anyone complain about noisy footage…. When you write “light the foreground hot” is there a value you work to? Are you intentionally “over exposing" to bring down that exposure to hide the noise? Thanks again Cynthia. Kris Kris Denton
Cinematographer Los Angeles Ph +1 310 344 5159 www.krisdenton.com IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0219845/
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Re: Creating the cleanest noise free blacks on Sony FX9 shooting slog3
Hi Nezih,
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Thank you for your response. Is lowering the EI below the base something you have done for an actual production? I was very curious about what others do in real world terms if anything to lower the noise floor or whether the results they achieve shooting in regular base settings in slog 3 meet their standards. It seems from what you and Cynthia are saying that you have not found any issues with noise so maybe I’m being overly sensitive to it. I have rated the camera at lower EI’s….Part of testing yesterday was doing just that. I am a seasoned cinematographer and have owned many cameras including two FX9’s for three years. I shoot mainly docs and have never had a complaint about noisy footage. Was really just curious about what other folks do if anything…... Thanks again. Kris Kris Denton Cinematographer
Los Angeles Ph +1 310 344 5159 www.krisdenton.com IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0219845/
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Re: Creating the cleanest noise free blacks on Sony FX9 shooting slog3
Something else you can try is rating the camera at a different EI.
So, have the camera set to low base ISO (800). Then set the EI to, for example, 320. If you are monitoring with a LUT (let's say, rec709(800)) this will make your image look 1 stop darker. So open your iris by 1 stop or add 1 stop more light to your subject to get them to look correct again. When you look at the log file, this will now look 1 stop over exposed. But if in post you grade that back down to look correct, you will be lowering the noise floor and improving the SNR a bit (because you will have allowed more light to fall on the sensor). Obviously best to do a test and see if this works well for you. Flagging to ensure no light spills on the background is important too - as mentioned above. ----------------------------------------------- Nezih Savaşkan
Director of Photography + Camera Operator-----------------------------------------------
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Re: Creating the cleanest noise free blacks on Sony FX9 shooting slog3
Cynthia Brett Webster
I should also mention that I've also always used a combination of Tiffen 1/4 Black Pro-Mist filters with Xeen Cinema Primes when shooting with the FX9 cameras. Perhaps the BPM filters helped crush the shadows? I discovered that the Xeen lenses have a far superior coating compared to the Rokinon still lenses (which get quite milky when stray light hits them). Perhaps a contrasty modern lens helps. (Maybe try noise reduction software such as from the Neat Video company.) Hi Kris! I've used pairs of FX9 cameras a few times on indi features and so far haven't encountered this issue. You might try shooting in low ISO mode on the FX9 using as heavy an external IRND filter as you can get away with, while over exposing the foreground by a stop or two. (For this situation, don't use the camera's otherwise excellent built-in ND). Light the foreground hot and flag everything off the background with as great a ratio between the two as possible. A combo Polarizer/IRND is another possibility. You may be getting a lot of stray infra-red in the background and the heavier the IRND filter the more it is cut. I've found it most accurate to expose by eye using the FX9 camera's built-in monitor/viewfinder and only use larger on set monitors simply for framing. (Important: Use the camera menu to give you the S-Log conversion in your viewfinder, else it will show you rec-709). I got a 7" inch ultra bright monitor for framing in sunny exteriors but for Interiors and night work, I can never get it dark enough to match the very accurate colors and brightness of the Sony viewfinder. (If I were to judge exposure using this external monitor everything would be quite grainy in the shadows)... I recommend downloading Sony's free software Catylist Browse for viewing your footage. It's really a great way to view dailies and see the adjustment ranges that are possible using the FX9. Oh, and instead of using the S-Log 3 LC (low contrast) setting in your editing system, I've found that the ACES setting looks pretty good too. On Wed, Mar 15, 2023, 5:40 PM Kris Denton via cml.news <krisdenton=mac.com@...> wrote: Hi All, I am wondering whether anyone has some insight/techniques for getting the cleanest noise free shadow/dark/black areas of the image. I have a gig coming up that needs to be shot slog but I want to try and achieve the cleanest blacks that I can. I have spent the day experimenting with different exposures and I'm still not convinced I'm getting the best from the camera.....but maybe I am. I will not have the ability to shoot raw for this project. Any post ideas would be welcomed. |
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Re: Creating the cleanest noise free blacks on Sony FX9 shooting slog3
Cynthia Brett Webster
Hi Kris! I've used pairs of FX9 cameras a few times on indi features and so far haven't encountered this issue. You might try shooting in low ISO mode on the FX9 using as heavy an external IRND filter as you can get away with, while over exposing the foreground by a stop or two. (For this situation, don't use the camera's otherwise excellent built-in ND). Light the foreground hot and flag everything off the background with as great a ratio between the two as possible. A combo Polarizer/IRND is another possibility. You may be getting a lot of stray infra-red in the background and the heavier the IRND filter the more it is cut. I've found it most accurate to expose by eye using the FX9 camera's built-in monitor/viewfinder and only use larger on set monitors simply for framing. (Important: Use the camera menu to give you the S-Log conversion in your viewfinder, else it will show you rec-709). I got a 7" inch ultra bright monitor for framing in sunny exteriors but for Interiors and night work, I can never get it dark enough to match the very accurate colors and brightness of the Sony viewfinder. (If I were to judge exposure using this external monitor everything would be quite grainy in the shadows)... I recommend downloading Sony's free software Catylist Browse for viewing your footage. It's really a great way to view dailies and see the adjustment ranges that are possible using the FX9. Oh, and instead of using the S-Log 3 LC (low contrast) setting in your editing system, I've found that the ACES setting looks pretty good too. On Wed, Mar 15, 2023, 5:40 PM Kris Denton via cml.news <krisdenton=mac.com@...> wrote: Hi All, I am wondering whether anyone has some insight/techniques for getting the cleanest noise free shadow/dark/black areas of the image. I have a gig coming up that needs to be shot slog but I want to try and achieve the cleanest blacks that I can. I have spent the day experimenting with different exposures and I'm still not convinced I'm getting the best from the camera.....but maybe I am. I will not have the ability to shoot raw for this project. Any post ideas would be welcomed. |
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Re: Creating the cleanest noise free blacks on Sony FX9 shooting slog3
Ø I’m looking at it on an M1 MacBook. Noise in the dark shadow areas is my issue. [Kris Denton]
As Leonart said: without speciffic information no one is able to help you. Do you have a light meter? If so, can you measure how many stops are there between your highlights and shadows? If so, you can easily calculate what S/N ratio you going to end up in the shadows and whether this is acceptable or not. If not, you may need to light it differently or use different camera with wider dynamic range.
There are so many unknowns. I can only assume that you are deliverying HDR as most cameras these days can fully cover SDR dynamic range. I’m also assuming that you are not in a low light situation (very high ISO) and the scene is properly lit. Again, do you have a light meter and be more specific?
All the information you have provided so far is more less irrelevant and the information that is needed in order to help you is missing.
Kind Regards,
Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc. ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417 “Sharp to the Edge”
Member of: ACS Technical Committee GSCA Board of Directors and Technical Committee IMAGO Technical Committee
Website: www.achtel.com Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747) Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia Email: Pawel.Achtel@... Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel Skype: Pawel.Achtel
From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... [mailto:cml-raw-log-hdr@...] On Behalf Of Leonard Levy
Sent: Thursday, 16 March 2023 12:17 PM To: cml-raw-log-hdr@... Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] Creating the cleanest noise free blacks on Sony FX9 shooting slog3
Please be precise , not just “different exposures “ and are you looking at your original images or after exposure adjustment in post . , what post program , 4K or HD , what codec , log ? Etc . Without that info I wouldn’t even guess
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Re: Creating the cleanest noise free blacks on Sony FX9 shooting slog3
Leonard Levy
Please be precise , not just “different exposures “ and are you looking at your original images or after exposure adjustment in post . , what post program , 4K or HD , what codec , log ? Etc . Without that info I wouldn’t even guess
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On Mar 15, 2023, at 5:57 PM, Kris Denton via cml.news <krisdenton=mac.com@...> wrote:
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