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Re: 9x7 Large Format Camera Announced

Pawel Achtel, ACS
 

 

Paul Curtis wrote:

 

Ø  I reckon that's more than 12 stops by eye... Or just very very good shadow handling

 

Thanks, Peter. Yes, we can see up to 14 stops in controlled conditions, if one can accept high temporal noise level (14 stops of patches can be discerned on ARRI DRTC while the brightest patch is not clipped). I’m finding that dynamic rage of the 9x7 is fairly similar to that other high-end Large Format cinema cameras and full frame DSLRs. Just different noise patterns.

 

However, the sensor has some unique features, which we have not enabled at this stage. The 9x7 sensor supports an advanced HDR mode, where it can capture two different exposures at the same time. I won’t go into technical details how this is done, but say that frame rates remain unchanged (the camera can still shoot up to 70 fps in HDR mode), dark and bright exposures happen at exactly same time and are combined on FPGA. The resulting dynamic range can be significantly increased. If there is need for very high dynamic range (up to 20 stops), it can enabled with the 9x7. It is just not a priority at the moment.

 

Ø  If the colour separation of the filter is unusually good - then let's see samples that show that off as well.

 

Absolutely. That is high on our priority list J

 

Daniel Henríquez Ilic wrote:

 

Ø  Hopefully, someone else can share a real IMAX 65mm/15 perf image, to help clarify the importance that IMAX films to be made on real film and not a substitute.

I do have some 200 Megapixel scans and I also have some 70mm film that I would be interested to scan, if someone has a good scanner. I’m more than happy to share.

 

A few comments about 70mm film dynamic range:

 

1.      I do love how highlights are handled on film negative.

2.      I hate how shadows and low-light scenes are handled by film.

Low light images are “muddy”, noisy and lack contrast. It just doesn’t have the same sensitivity as high-end digital cameras have these days.

3.      Distribution prints usually don’t have high dynamic range compared to the original film negative.

4.      Most Giant Screen and IMAX venues do not allow for more than about 6 ~ 7 stops on screen due to high ambient light levels (there is a very interesting study done by Christie Digital on this). This will no doubt improve with better theatre design, laser projection and LED displays, but we are back to digital here.

 

 

Kind Regards,

 

Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc.

“Sharp to the Edge”

 

ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417

Website: www.achtel.com

Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747)

Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia

Address: RA 913 Coles Bay Rd., Coles Bay, TAS 7215, Australia

Location: S 42° 0'14.40"S, E 148°14'47.13"

Email: Pawel.Achtel@...

Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel

Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel

 


Re: 9x7 Large Format Camera Announced

Daniel Henríquez-Ilic <dhisur@...>
 

This attached frame was shot on real film - however not IMAX format - and was then scanned to 8K (vertical) with a Nikon Coolscan 9000ED (TIFF RGB).
It was shot with a Kodak Vision3 200T / 5213 65mm film manual cut and then loaded on a medium format photographic camera (Rollei 6008i) and a 80mm lens (normal lens in a 6x6 camera).
This was cross-processed through Agfa AP-70 chemistry (since at the time, I didn't have ECN-2 chemistry available).
I had to scan the frame twice, to be able to handle the huge range of densities present in the color neg :-)
One specific pass was specific for the extreme high lights in the center of the picture.
Picture: Valparaiso 2013 - Photographer credit: Daniel Henríquez Ilic

Hopefully, someone else can share a real IMAX 65mm/15 perf image, to help clarify the importance that IMAX films to be made on real film and not a substitute.
I have attached the technical data of the Eatsman Kodak 200T/5213 emulsion (Characteristic Curve on page 4).

Best regards,
Daniel Henríquez Ilic
Film Cinematographer
DI Post-Producer
Santiago de Chile

El mar., 15 sept. 2020 a las 2:42, Paul Curtis (<paul@...>) escribió:

On 15 Sep 2020, at 06:08, Pawel Achtel ACS <pawel.achtel@...> wrote:
The samples that are on the website are only mapped to REC 709. They can be transformed to wider gamut in Resolve, but a more accurate way would be to attach a profile corresponding to target colour space, for example. I don’t have an example readily available.


Who do you see as the audience for the camera - IMHO i think it's quite specific but i think a lot of folks might be looking at this as a generic cine camera which i don't think it is.

Looking in Nuke i would say that the samples let you down a bit - they're mostly at T4 and to show the detail i would have expected them to be stopped down a lot more than that and also pointed at a nice detailed landscape. I can see the resolution in there - so for plates and so on it could be really useful. But better samples would help enormously.

I see a lot of vertical FPN in the sea shot for example when i extract everything in the source DNG but it also shows a lot of colour detail in the shadows which is to be applauded. Global shutter on something this high res is amazing, so VFX plates and so on could be a dream.

Clearly there are questions about the range. 12bit packed into a 16 bit container is a waste of space and with 120MB frame size it's unnecessary. You could pack this into a log 10 bit container quite easily.

If the data is genuinely linear then the range can't be more that 11/12stops but i'm not sure the source *is* linear, visually it seems like a greater range scaled into that 12 bit range? Which will cause issues in post if that is the case.

Here's an image of that seascape but to show everything that's in there


I reckon that's more than 12 stops by eye... Or just very very good shadow handling

So if it's a greater range packed into just 12 - then it's not being properly stored which will lead to issues in vfx pipeines.

Then also there's the issue of native camera colourspace - i cannot tell. If the samples are 709 then how have they been mapped at the camera into 709? I see nothing in the samples that really show off anything beyond 709. If the colour separation of the filter is unusually good - then let's see samples that show that off as well.

So whilst there are some really interesting uses for the cam, i think we need a bit more nitty gritty detail. If this is aimed at VFX folk as well as large format - then it's that nitty gritty that makes all the difference for us image geeks...

Cheers
Paul

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK



Re: 9x7 Large Format Camera Announced

Paul Curtis
 


On 15 Sep 2020, at 06:08, Pawel Achtel ACS <pawel.achtel@...> wrote:
The samples that are on the website are only mapped to REC 709. They can be transformed to wider gamut in Resolve, but a more accurate way would be to attach a profile corresponding to target colour space, for example. I don’t have an example readily available.


Who do you see as the audience for the camera - IMHO i think it's quite specific but i think a lot of folks might be looking at this as a generic cine camera which i don't think it is.

Looking in Nuke i would say that the samples let you down a bit - they're mostly at T4 and to show the detail i would have expected them to be stopped down a lot more than that and also pointed at a nice detailed landscape. I can see the resolution in there - so for plates and so on it could be really useful. But better samples would help enormously.

I see a lot of vertical FPN in the sea shot for example when i extract everything in the source DNG but it also shows a lot of colour detail in the shadows which is to be applauded. Global shutter on something this high res is amazing, so VFX plates and so on could be a dream.

Clearly there are questions about the range. 12bit packed into a 16 bit container is a waste of space and with 120MB frame size it's unnecessary. You could pack this into a log 10 bit container quite easily.

If the data is genuinely linear then the range can't be more that 11/12stops but i'm not sure the source *is* linear, visually it seems like a greater range scaled into that 12 bit range? Which will cause issues in post if that is the case.

Here's an image of that seascape but to show everything that's in there


I reckon that's more than 12 stops by eye... Or just very very good shadow handling

So if it's a greater range packed into just 12 - then it's not being properly stored which will lead to issues in vfx pipeines.

Then also there's the issue of native camera colourspace - i cannot tell. If the samples are 709 then how have they been mapped at the camera into 709? I see nothing in the samples that really show off anything beyond 709. If the colour separation of the filter is unusually good - then let's see samples that show that off as well.

So whilst there are some really interesting uses for the cam, i think we need a bit more nitty gritty detail. If this is aimed at VFX folk as well as large format - then it's that nitty gritty that makes all the difference for us image geeks...

Cheers
Paul

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK



Re: 9x7 Large Format Camera Announced

Pawel Achtel, ACS
 

Ø  I wanna see how your own baby responds there, I expect nothing but a clean line :-)

 

Ha, ha, not too much pressure J

 

Ø  but re native, raw colorspace of your cam, for example how much of Rec2020 does it cover ?

 

I’m fairly confident we will get very clean and accurate saturated blues and reds. Saturated greens are always difficult with Bayer pattern, as I learned from testing other cameras J I just don’t know without measuring (and possibly refining colour science). Will see. It is what it is, so I will post when get around to test it.

Ø  what's the pixel pitch of the sensor

just over 3 microns

Ø  and which select lenses have you found that currently hopefully somewhat come close to out-resolving the sensor ?

Most lenses will “resolve” the senor (at least in the centre), but very few will have contrast high enough close to Nyquist spatial frequency to give best results.

 

ARRI Signature Primes seems to have very high (30% plus) contrast when looking at around 140 lp/mm.

They also maintain this high contrast away from the centre. These are my first choice.

 

I also shoot with three select Sigma ART lenses: 14mm T2, 28mm T1.5 and 135mm T2.

The 14mm is ruthlessly sharp in the centre of the frame. We will try to offset this lens so that the optical centre falls in the lower 1/3 for IMAX framing. It falls apart on the edges, at least fully wide open.

The 28mm T1.5 is better and maintains sharpness further away from the centre. Again, I will be looking to offset mount to bring optical centre to lower 1/3rd.

The 135mm T2 is probably the sharpest lens I’ve ever tested from corner to corner. The DOF if fun, though. Any volunteers to pull focus?

 

Here is centre sharpness of 9x7 with Sigma 28mm T1.5 at T4.0

 

           

 

            You can see about 20% contrast at sensor Nyquist limit.

You don’t want it to be any more because you would get aliasing and Moire issues. You don’t want to have any less because it will be soft at the minute detail. It’s a fine balancing act and this is where pixels are not all created equal.

 

For reference only:

 

I have also tested other cameras with the same lens on the same setup.

 

Notably ARRI Alexa LF Mini which, despite significantly lower pixel count, showed some amazing micro-contrast and very clean (artefact-free) details. Very impressive! In my opinion this is the most refined camera when it comes to handling micro-contrast. Incidentally: also 20% of contrast at Nyquist (thanks to a carefully fine-tuned OLPF). But the contrast curve is “fatter” and MTF 50 arriving at 1989 lines of picture height for a 3096 high sensor is as good as I have seen. No wonder DOPs love this camera.

 

 

I also tested a 12K camera, but will not post the results out of respect of a direct request from the maker to not publish them.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc.

“Sharp to the Edge”

 

ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417

Website: www.achtel.com

Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747)

Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia

Address: RA 913 Coles Bay Rd., Coles Bay, TAS 7215, Australia

Location: S 42° 0'14.40"S, E 148°14'47.13"

Email: Pawel.Achtel@...

Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel

Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel

Skype: Pawel.Achtel

 


Re: 9x7 Large Format Camera Announced

Mike Nagel
 

On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 10:09 PM, Pawel Achtel ACS wrote:
Monochromator tests will be available soon

Looking forward to that. You shared a test here a year ago or so where you ran a test on the RED Monstro using a monochromator... it showed the response of that particular cam in the "line or purples" - I wanna see how your own baby responds there, I expect nothing but a clean line :-)

but re native, raw colorspace of your cam, for example how much of Rec2020 does it cover ?

I'm not referring to remapping the image data after debayer and processing into Rec2020 colorspace, but rather how much of Rec2020 the sensitivity of the sensor covers in terms of differentiating hues and saturation at capture...

what's the pixel pitch of the sensor and which select lenses have you found that currently hopefully somewhat come close to out-resolving the sensor ?

 

Thanks.
Mike Nagel
Director/Producer
L.A.


Re: 9x7 Large Format Camera Announced

Pawel Achtel, ACS
 

Hi Mike Nagel and thank you for your questions.

Ø  can you share the raw color gamut of the camera and/or at least the gamut that the image data gets mapped into ?

 

The samples that are on the website are only mapped to REC 709. They can be transformed to wider gamut in Resolve, but a more accurate way would be to attach a profile corresponding to target colour space, for example. I don’t have an example readily available.

 

One particular aspect of WCG is that the CFA on 9x7 has excellent primary colour filtering. Many high-end cameras experience blue (and sometimes green) channel response in near IR spectrum. Some benefit from more aggressive IR cut, some just show deep red as magenta. Similar phenomenon often happens in near UV that blue colours are contaminated with red photo site response: blue colours are sometimes skewed towards magenta.

A very distinct feature of the CFA in 9x7 is that this doesn’t happen. At least not to the extent that it is present in most other cameras. . In fact, I have removed IR cut filter (just for testing) to see how my blue tones would be affected with near IR contamination. They weren’t. In fact one of the sample shots was shot in full sunlight with no IR filter at all.

 

As long as colours are well discriminated by CFA, wide gamut profiles can be easily mapped to any desired colour space. 9x7 workflow allows such process by separating raw image data from camera colour profile (using standard DCP colour profiles and software tools to manage them).


> next, bit-depth of A/D conversion ?

 

Simple, but loaded question J

Most sensors with small pitch photosites do not benefit from more than 12-bit A/D. Only select few with very large pixels (and large FWC) benefit from more. Otherwise you are digitising noise. Most modern high-resolution sensors have 12-bit A/D (some even 10-bit) because noise floor is almost always well above that level. Some DSLRs have indeed 14-bit A/D (and feature high FWC with large photosites), like Sony A7S, but it is debatable whether this is actually of any benefit. It is clear that the first 2-bits is pretty much noise even for very large pixel pitch sensors.

So, the simple answer: 12

> fully lossless raw storage and/or codec involved ? if so, which one ?

 

No codec. The camera records uncompressed RAW with no compression.

> what are the requirements to play back these files 24p in post ?

 

Post is pretty straightforward (for 9k x 7K and lower output) and, as long as you have fast I/O, could be achieved without pre-rendering.

Ø  meaning: do u have a new codec in play like BMD on the 12K cam that allows 24p playback on even medium specc'd systems ?

I can’t comment on BMD as I was not able to play or even edit BMD sample footage because Resolve would crash 10 out of 10 times that I tried.

The 9x7 promo video was edited on mid-range notebook using Davinci Resolve.

We will add in-camera playback soon (working on it, it is tricky).

Ø  next, what is the file format and/or is there a SDK available ? support in Resolve, Nucoda, Baselight, Nuke ?

No SDK is required. The workflow produces compliant DNG RAW files with all the metadata including frame rates, shutter speed, time code, etc.. and can be ingested directly to any NLE editing system.

Ø  are we forced to use ur proprietary sw ? can we export to EXR from there ?

The files are not proprietary, they are standard DNG and are available for anyone to try and play with: http://achtel.com/9x7/sample.htm

Camera and lens settings have been provided and EXIFF tags should be accurate too.

A couple of disclaimers:

The frame rate has not yet been fully tagged in the DNG samples provided. This has been implemented very recently.

The Tassie Devil shot has some FPN due to black shading not been applied (It was captured with engineering sample sensor, which I don’t have anymore to obtain black frame).

Ø  have u run a color separation test, and if so can u share the results ?

The last sample is colour chart: http://achtel.com/9x7/sample.htm

 

Monochromator tests will be available soon. It’s been busy few months. J

 

Kind Regards,

 

Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc.

“Sharp to the Edge”

 

ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417

Website: www.achtel.com

Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747)

Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia

Address: RA 913 Coles Bay Rd., Coles Bay, TAS 7215, Australia

Location: S 42° 0'14.40"S, E 148°14'47.13"

Email: Pawel.Achtel@...

Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel

Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel

Skype: Pawel.Achtel

_._,_._,_


Re: 9x7 Large Format Camera Announced

Mark Kenfield
 

I’m not really sure how people expect Pawel to have made it clearer that this is a VERY niche camera, for a VERY niche part of the market? That’s front and centre of how it’s been presented.

The form-factor and recording constraints alone pretty much instantly write it off for the conventional kinds of production that most of us do - and that’s fine (as it’s abundantly clear that this isn’t a camera for conventional production). It’s been designed for a small group of people, doing one very specific thing - giant screen work.

Admittedly the sample jpegs that have been put up online do look pretty horrific. But they look horrific for the same reason that AJA Cion and the Fran looked horrific - Linear gamma. It’s gross, and a completely alien way of working for anyone used to the Cineon-ish curves that all decent digital motion pictures have used for the past decade.

But if you pull the footage into Davinci (or some other grading software) and transform the images to a more conventional Cineon-esque curve, you can wrangle it into a nice place without too much pain.

There is still some weirdness (mainly in the shadows) once transformed from linear - the deepest shadow detail blocks up very easily whilst you’re trying to set a healthy black level (which is a behaviour I’ve found with all linear footage that I’ve had to transform manually). But it at least becomes workable.

The level of detail in the images is just unreal though, wildly beyond anything you’d ever need unless you’re shooting for IMAX-level viewing angels, but you can just keep zooming and zooming in on the image, and there’s just so much information there. Very impressive.


Here’s some of the sample footage transformed out of linear and graded a little (with the linear versions from the website on the left):


Cliffs.jpg

Man Night.jpg

Sax.jpg

Clifftop.jpg

Tiger.jpg

This one's pretty rough (I think it's extreme IR pollution that's made the skintones so unsalvagable):
Girl Beach.jpg

Girl Flowers.jpg
Sydney Harbour.jpg

Billabong.jpg

Cheers,

Mark Kenfield
Cinematographer

0400 044 500


On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 at 13:34, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:

Guys,

 

Chill.

 

Pawel has launched a new camera based on an industrial original.
Why are you all getting so wound up about this, it’s not new, RED, BMD, IO, AJA,  Phantom and all the rest that I can’t remember have done it.

It’s what you do with it that matters.

Of course we need to know more, I’d love to do over/unders with it 😊

 

Give him a bit of space before tearing him apart, a few of you never manage ever to make a positive comment about anything.

 

Lets just wait until we have more than data sheets to examine.

 

If independently shot material looks bad THEN you can tear him apart 😊

 

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076

www.gboyle.nl

www.cinematography.net

 

 


Re: 9x7 Large Format Camera Announced

Geoff Boyle
 

Guys,

 

Chill.

 

Pawel has launched a new camera based on an industrial original.
Why are you all getting so wound up about this, it’s not new, RED, BMD, IO, AJA,  Phantom and all the rest that I can’t remember have done it.

It’s what you do with it that matters.

Of course we need to know more, I’d love to do over/unders with it 😊

 

Give him a bit of space before tearing him apart, a few of you never manage ever to make a positive comment about anything.

 

Lets just wait until we have more than data sheets to examine.

 

If independently shot material looks bad THEN you can tear him apart 😊

 

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076

www.gboyle.nl

www.cinematography.net

 

 


Re: 9x7 Large Format Camera Announced

Oliver Schietinger
 

first of all, Pael, kudos for going out on limb. This is not something that happens overnight: it takes risk, guts and a long time planning. Your long-time contributions to this community is something I'm sure we are all grateful for, but I can definitely say so for my part.

 

second, can you chill out?

 

you start off with a very proud post declaring a camera with heretofore unseen capabilities (without knowing about the one of the first major digital cinema camera's capabilities, the Phantom HD)

 

your followup is impugn the character and motivations of someone who questions your claims

you couuld just have responded to the questions, but you decided to add a personal attack

 

third, you insult all of us „who can‘t afford your $150,000 USD camera“ (and you do that in the midst of the COVID era)

that‘s cool man, remind why you are posting here again?

 

After all, „We have more customers than we can handle“, so what do you need us for?

Please, 
there's more to the camera and more to discuss, without all this; this,, I'm sure of..

--
Oliver Schietinger, TCS NEW YORK


Re: 9x7 Large Format Camera Announced

Mike Nagel
 

sorry, and forgot:

have u run a color separation test, and if so can u share the results ?

I'd be interested in the native resolution results, then downsampled to 8K, then 4K.

Thanks.
Mike Nagel
Director/Producer


Re: 9x7 Large Format Camera Announced

Mike Nagel
 

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 07:14 PM, Pawel Achtel ACS wrote:
Wide Colour Gamut

Pawel,


can you share the raw color gamut of the camera and/or at least the gamut that the image data gets mapped into ?

And for sake of simplicity triangle x, y coordinates are fine, I understand that that is rather an estimate of the actual gamut.

just interested to see what "wide" refers to here.

next, bit-depth of A/D conversion ?

fully lossless raw storage and/or codec involved ? if so, which one ?

what are the requirements to play back these files 24p in post ?

meaning: do u have a new codec in play like BMD on the 12K cam that allows 24p playback on even medium specc'd systems ?

next, what is the file format and/or is there a SDK available ?
support in Resolve, Nucoda, Baselight, Nuke ?
if not, what is the current workflow for the data ? what did Cameron do on Avatar w/ the files ?
are we forced to use ur proprietary sw ? can we export to EXR from there ?

 

"sophisticated focusing tools"

can u elaborate on that ?


Thanks.
Mike Nagel
Director/Producer

L.A.


Re: 9x7 Large Format Camera Announced

Andy Jarosz
 

Neither are personal attacks :)

It's true, I can't afford it. But, I am absolutely interested in using it--and as the owner of a VR company, I suspect I'm a target audience as well. My comments came from a decade of engineering and introducing products to this industry, and were genuine observations.

I can tell you've put a lot of thought into the system, and I hope to be able to try it one day. Until then, you must surely expect a heightened level of scrutiny for the price you're asking. I'm not saying it's not worth that price--I have no idea--but people are naturally going to have questions and concerns.

Best,

-- 
Andy Jarosz
MadlyFX & LOLED Virtual
loledvirtual.com
Andy@...
708.420.2639
Chicago, IL

On 9/14/2020 6:04 PM, Pawel Achtel ACS wrote:

Andy Jarosz wrote:

Ø  .At almost $150,000USD, it just seems to me I'm not getting a whole lot of camera for that money. Sure I get a sensor head and a recorder and a cooler(?), but all those constitute a camera like four wheels and an engine constitute a car. There's a lot missing…

Ø  my suggestion is twofold. First, rethink the marketing…

Thank you for your marketing advice and technical details of the camera.

Clearly, you are not interested in using it. You have no knowledge about it. You don’t need it. And, you cannot afford it.

However, spreading incorrect information is not in the spirit of CML



Re: 9x7 Large Format Camera Announced

Pawel Achtel, ACS
 

Ø  For total accuracy, I would note that this capability has been available on Phantom cameras for more than a decade

 

Cool, I didn’t know that. Thanks, Mitch for pointing it out. Vision Research did a lot of ground-breaking innovations (and still do).

 

We have a workflow that black shading can be captured any time in camera: before or after a shot. It takes about a second to do a black shade. From then black shading is attached as metadata only. But, it can be replaced in the post process, if needed. Same goes for flat field correction, bad pixel map, and camera colour profile.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc.

“Sharp to the Edge”

 

ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417

Website: www.achtel.com

Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747)

Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia

Address: RA 913 Coles Bay Rd., Coles Bay, TAS 7215, Australia

Location: S 42° 0'14.40"S, E 148°14'47.13"

Email: Pawel.Achtel@...

Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel

Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel

Skype: Pawel.Achtel

 


Re: 9x7 Large Format Camera Announced

Mitch Gross
 

On Sep 14, 2020, at 7:04 PM, Pawel Achtel ACS <pawel.achtel@...> wrote:

Last, but not least, the included workflow allows for customisation of colour science, flat field correction and, critically, black shading to be applied after the capture, but before Debayering. Nothing is “backed-in” and, if black shading was off, it can be re-applied. Again, industry first, AFAIK.
For total accuracy, I would note that this capability has been available on Phantom cameras for more than a decade. It’s a shot-by-shot feature, but it is possible to capture a shot in uncompressed RAW and then apply a black shading offset after the fact. I don’t know how this functionality is implemented in your camera and I can imagine that it may have greater flexibility than the VERY specialized use Phantom, but it was first.

Mitch Gross
New York


Re: 9x7 Large Format Camera Announced

Daniel Henríquez-Ilic <dhisur@...>
 

By the way, IMHO,  the worldwide standard, regarding format acquisition for IMAX is: IMAX  65mm/15 perf. film
No question about that.
Just curious about how the Ektachrome 100D /5294 would look if it became available in 65mm.

Best regards,
Daniel Henríquez Ilic
Film Cinematographer
DI Post-Producer
Santiago de Chile


El lun., 14 sept. 2020 a las 16:04, Pawel Achtel ACS (<pawel.achtel@...>) escribió:
Andy Jarosz wrote:

Ø  .At almost $150,000USD, it just seems to me I'm not getting a whole lot of camera for that money. Sure I get a sensor head and a recorder and a cooler(?), but all those constitute a camera like four wheels and an engine constitute a car. There's a lot missing…

Ø  my suggestion is twofold. First, rethink the marketing…

Thank you for your marketing advice and technical details of the camera.

Clearly, you are not interested in using it. You have no knowledge about it. You don’t need it. And, you cannot afford it.

However, spreading incorrect information is not in the spirit of CML

For others, the camera comes with sophisticated workflow software (both Windows and Linux) as well as advanced in-camera tools allowing filming in extremely high resolutions. These are “industry first” innovations that are not found on any other cameras. These include very precise (linear and logarithmic) histograms, ability to monitor magnified image while recording (for critical focusing), sophisticated focusing tools, IMAX and Giant Screen specific framing aids, not to mention comprehensive instrumentation, diagnostics, reliability and ability to record images at up to 30x the speed of other high-end digital cinema cameras - more than exponential improvement and industry first.

The camera comes with 4TB or 8TB internal recording storage included. Storage capable of transfer rates of up to 10GB /s. Reliably! These cannot be purchased at a corner computer store. These are sophisticated high-performance storage solutions that take enormous amount of expertise, R&D and costs to come up with, test and fine tune.

The camera delivers unsurpassed image quality which we are happy to compare side-by-side with still pictures from the best DSLRs, except it is capable of capturing 70 fps reliably.

The camera also features MOCO integration. Due to advanced overlapped readout capability of the sensor (reading frame data while acquiring the next), the camera can operate in triggered mode right up to 70 fps. This is not possible on most other high-end cinema cameras, which are usually limited to half speed in triggered operation.

Last, but not least, the included workflow allows for customisation of colour science, flat field correction and, critically, black shading to be applied after the capture, but before Debayering. Nothing is “backed-in” and, if black shading was off, it can be re-applied. Again, industry first, AFAIK.

There is a cost to innovation. If you can’t afford it, no offence taken. We have more customers than we can handle.

Kind Regards,

 

Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc.

“Sharp to the Edge”

 

ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417

Website: www.achtel.com

Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747)

Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia

Address: RA 913 Coles Bay Rd., Coles Bay, TAS 7215, Australia

Location: S 42° 0'14.40"S, E 148°14'47.13"

Email: Pawel.Achtel@...

Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel

Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel

Skype: Pawel.Achtel

,_


Re: 9x7 Large Format Camera Announced

Pawel Achtel, ACS
 

Andy Jarosz wrote:

Ø  .At almost $150,000USD, it just seems to me I'm not getting a whole lot of camera for that money. Sure I get a sensor head and a recorder and a cooler(?), but all those constitute a camera like four wheels and an engine constitute a car. There's a lot missing…

Ø  my suggestion is twofold. First, rethink the marketing…

Thank you for your marketing advice and technical details of the camera.

Clearly, you are not interested in using it. You have no knowledge about it. You don’t need it. And, you cannot afford it.

However, spreading incorrect information is not in the spirit of CML

For others, the camera comes with sophisticated workflow software (both Windows and Linux) as well as advanced in-camera tools allowing filming in extremely high resolutions. These are “industry first” innovations that are not found on any other cameras. These include very precise (linear and logarithmic) histograms, ability to monitor magnified image while recording (for critical focusing), sophisticated focusing tools, IMAX and Giant Screen specific framing aids, not to mention comprehensive instrumentation, diagnostics, reliability and ability to record images at up to 30x the speed of other high-end digital cinema cameras - more than exponential improvement and industry first.

The camera comes with 4TB or 8TB internal recording storage included. Storage capable of transfer rates of up to 10GB /s. Reliably! These cannot be purchased at a corner computer store. These are sophisticated high-performance storage solutions that take enormous amount of expertise, R&D and costs to come up with, test and fine tune.

The camera delivers unsurpassed image quality which we are happy to compare side-by-side with still pictures from the best DSLRs, except it is capable of capturing 70 fps reliably.

The camera also features MOCO integration. Due to advanced overlapped readout capability of the sensor (reading frame data while acquiring the next), the camera can operate in triggered mode right up to 70 fps. This is not possible on most other high-end cinema cameras, which are usually limited to half speed in triggered operation.

Last, but not least, the included workflow allows for customisation of colour science, flat field correction and, critically, black shading to be applied after the capture, but before Debayering. Nothing is “backed-in” and, if black shading was off, it can be re-applied. Again, industry first, AFAIK.

There is a cost to innovation. If you can’t afford it, no offence taken. We have more customers than we can handle.

Kind Regards,

 

Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc.

“Sharp to the Edge”

 

ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417

Website: www.achtel.com

Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747)

Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia

Address: RA 913 Coles Bay Rd., Coles Bay, TAS 7215, Australia

Location: S 42° 0'14.40"S, E 148°14'47.13"

Email: Pawel.Achtel@...

Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel

Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel

Skype: Pawel.Achtel

,_


Re: 9x7 Large Format Camera Announced

Andy Jarosz
 

Pawel's not the first to rebrand an industrial camera or sensor, and he certainly won't be the last. That's not inherently a bad thing, and it's clear some work has gone into modifying it to be more suitable for this new use.

I don't think there's not an audience for this. If nothing else, the global shutter makes it potentially appealing to VR, volumetric, and VFX work. And honestly, at least it's a trusted name brand like Ximea and not an Aliexpress knockoff.

In my mind, the big question really is the price. At almost $150,000USD, it just seems to me I'm not getting a whole lot of camera for that money. Sure I get a sensor head and a recorder and a cooler(?), but all those constitute a camera like four wheels and an engine constitute a car. There's a lot missing.

To Pawel, my suggestion is twofold. First, rethink the marketing--don't advertise it as the Next Big Thing, but as a niche tool, and go after the specific use cases where it's most applicable. Section, ponder this: If you were able to do this, presumably by yourself, why haven't other camera companies done the same? Surely they also want a large format high res camera. In uncovering those reasons why, you'll find the gaps between your system and the "status quo" of cameras, and will help explain the bashlash here.

Best,

-- 
Andy Jarosz
MadlyFX & LOLED Virtual
loledvirtual.com
Andy@...
708.420.2639
Chicago, IL
On 9/14/2020 6:50 AM, Riza Pacalioglu wrote:

“So Pawel, can you explain, how are you able achieve 14 and 16 stops of DR, with a sensor whose ADC is just 10 and 12 bits, and that INCLUDES noise?”

“No, 9x7 is a digital cinema camera specifically designed for motion picture: starting from lens mount, sensor glass cover right down to recording, monitoring, tools, colour science and full high-end production workflow software and everything in between. “

With all due respect, Pawel asked about the sensor not about the industrial camera he linked. The answer has no mention about the sensor. It is obvious that the mechanics and electronic of the 9x7 camera is different. If you do not want to divulge the sensor information that is your prerogative. I would have liked a simple no comment than what seems to be a diversion to a question.

“…your data is LINEAR, and it has just 12 valid bits. That is 11 stops at SNR=2 to start with at best."

I can confirm these finding and hence, I am also interested to understand how a DR of 12-14 stops is achieved with just 12-bit data?

Also, the website makes a song and dance of the 30 GBytes/s data stream but why is that necessary if the recorded data is just 12-bit. Why make our life difficult by feeding us what is in effect empty data?

I wouldn’t normally ask such detailed information on a public forum, but as this information is available on the camera’s website, it is only normal for us to verify it so that we understand the camera.

 

Riza Pacalioglu B.Sc. M.Sc. M.A.

Technical Supervisor & Producer

South of England

 

 

From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> On Behalf Of Pawel Achtel ACS via cml.news
Sent: 14 September 2020 10:33
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@...
Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] 9x7 Large Format Camera Announced

 

Daniel,

It appears that you have an agenda and no genuine interest in the 9x7 camera or cinematography in general, but I will answer anyway.

  • To me it seems like made from an industrial camera head

No, 9x7 is a digital cinema camera specifically designed for motion picture: starting from lens mount, sensor glass cover right down to recording, monitoring, tools, colour science and full high-end production workflow software and everything in between.

  • So Pawel, can you explain, how are you able achieve 14 and 16 stops of DR, with a sensor whose ADC is just 10 and 12 bits, and that INCLUDES noise?

The dynamic was measured using ARRI DRTC target. If anyone is interested (for the right reasons), I’m happy to share those results privately.

The dynamic range was also compared, side-by-side with 3 other leading digital cinema cameras, some claiming 19 stops, and the comparison was very close: all within less than 1 stop. Due to different noise pattern it is hard to tell which one is better or worse. Expect similar dynamic range as top tier digital cinema cameras.

  • Al the samples have detail ruined by crude NR and the DR seems about to be 12 stops as on an aged DSLR.

You are entirely entitled to your opinion, Daniel. RAW footage samples can be viewed here and readily compared with any other camera:

               http://achtel.com/9x7/sample.htm

We went through a lot of effort and cost in order to get a wide range of samples, despite Covid restrictions. This is because we believe in our product and more than happy to share footage freely for anyone to pixel peep and compare with that of other cameras.

For those who are genuinely interested in 9x7, I’m also happy to provide still pictures (RAW) shot with Sony A7R VI side-by-side with 9x7.  

To my eye 9x7 wins the dynamic range contest hands down with most other cameras, but I’m not here to discredit any other camera maker. It takes a lot of effort, passion and hard work to bring any camera to market and this should be celebrated as each camera would have its strong points. Even an “aged DSLR”.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc.

“Sharp to the Edge”

 

ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417

Website: www.achtel.com

Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747)

Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia

Address: RA 913 Coles Bay Rd., Coles Bay, TAS 7215, Australia

Location: S 42° 0'14.40"S, E 148°14'47.13"

Email: Pawel.Achtel@...

Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel

Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel

Skype: Pawel.Achtel


Re: 9x7 Large Format Camera Announced

Riza Pacalioglu
 

“So Pawel, can you explain, how are you able achieve 14 and 16 stops of DR, with a sensor whose ADC is just 10 and 12 bits, and that INCLUDES noise?”

“No, 9x7 is a digital cinema camera specifically designed for motion picture: starting from lens mount, sensor glass cover right down to recording, monitoring, tools, colour science and full high-end production workflow software and everything in between. “

With all due respect, Pawel asked about the sensor not about the industrial camera he linked. The answer has no mention about the sensor. It is obvious that the mechanics and electronic of the 9x7 camera is different. If you do not want to divulge the sensor information that is your prerogative. I would have liked a simple no comment than what seems to be a diversion to a question.

“…your data is LINEAR, and it has just 12 valid bits. That is 11 stops at SNR=2 to start with at best."

I can confirm these finding and hence, I am also interested to understand how a DR of 12-14 stops is achieved with just 12-bit data?

Also, the website makes a song and dance of the 30 GBytes/s data stream but why is that necessary if the recorded data is just 12-bit. Why make our life difficult by feeding us what is in effect empty data?

I wouldn’t normally ask such detailed information on a public forum, but as this information is available on the camera’s website, it is only normal for us to verify it so that we understand the camera.

 

Riza Pacalioglu B.Sc. M.Sc. M.A.

Technical Supervisor & Producer

South of England

 

 

From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> On Behalf Of Pawel Achtel ACS via cml.news
Sent: 14 September 2020 10:33
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@...
Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] 9x7 Large Format Camera Announced

 

Daniel,

It appears that you have an agenda and no genuine interest in the 9x7 camera or cinematography in general, but I will answer anyway.

  • To me it seems like made from an industrial camera head

No, 9x7 is a digital cinema camera specifically designed for motion picture: starting from lens mount, sensor glass cover right down to recording, monitoring, tools, colour science and full high-end production workflow software and everything in between.

  • So Pawel, can you explain, how are you able achieve 14 and 16 stops of DR, with a sensor whose ADC is just 10 and 12 bits, and that INCLUDES noise?

The dynamic was measured using ARRI DRTC target. If anyone is interested (for the right reasons), I’m happy to share those results privately.

The dynamic range was also compared, side-by-side with 3 other leading digital cinema cameras, some claiming 19 stops, and the comparison was very close: all within less than 1 stop. Due to different noise pattern it is hard to tell which one is better or worse. Expect similar dynamic range as top tier digital cinema cameras.

  • Al the samples have detail ruined by crude NR and the DR seems about to be 12 stops as on an aged DSLR.

You are entirely entitled to your opinion, Daniel. RAW footage samples can be viewed here and readily compared with any other camera:

               http://achtel.com/9x7/sample.htm

We went through a lot of effort and cost in order to get a wide range of samples, despite Covid restrictions. This is because we believe in our product and more than happy to share footage freely for anyone to pixel peep and compare with that of other cameras.

For those who are genuinely interested in 9x7, I’m also happy to provide still pictures (RAW) shot with Sony A7R VI side-by-side with 9x7.  

To my eye 9x7 wins the dynamic range contest hands down with most other cameras, but I’m not here to discredit any other camera maker. It takes a lot of effort, passion and hard work to bring any camera to market and this should be celebrated as each camera would have its strong points. Even an “aged DSLR”.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc.

“Sharp to the Edge”

 

ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417

Website: www.achtel.com

Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747)

Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia

Address: RA 913 Coles Bay Rd., Coles Bay, TAS 7215, Australia

Location: S 42° 0'14.40"S, E 148°14'47.13"

Email: Pawel.Achtel@...

Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel

Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel

Skype: Pawel.Achtel


Re: 9x7 Large Format Camera Announced

Daniel Rozsnyó
 

Pawel,

   I admire the courage to go with a "product" to the market, but do not treat youy users, the professionals here, not me as fools. I forgive to the copy-paste news editors who do not understand their field they report on, even that they focus on a specific market.

   Keeping it technical, as CML has always been for me - I was looking at your DNG files extensively linked from Google Drive:

- Cols = 9344
- Rows = 7000
- BitsPerSample = 16
- Compression = 1 : No compression


   So far, so "good"... - but looking further:

~ DNG/BlackLevel = 73
~ DNG/WhiteLevel = 4095


   That is only 4K of shades.. sort of 12 bit, isn't it? Looking even further:

MISSING? - DNG/LinearizationTable


   Hell no, your data is LINEAR, and it has just 12 valid bits. That is 11 stops at SNR=2 to start with at best.

   While I have not looked to the color matrix you use to correct from RAW to RGB, in order to correct for the filter that is used on top of the native RAW colour filter of the GPixel sensor, I would expect you would correct for same color response (achromatics resulting in equal digital level in RGGB), not the other way, which makes the colours distinctly different - and would trade the color precision for a half or one stop of extra dynamic range (Sony does that, with bright green filters).

  The weirdest fact about your footage is - why are you guys using a 16-bit container for the 12-bit data? You are literally storing 4 zero bits extra to the 12 data bits, demanding the storage speed and capacity by 33% larger than necessary. No wonder you have to store 10GB/s... yet only 7.5GB/s of that is the actual data (which then matches the Ximea's Gen3x8 PCIe bandwidth). But here again - is bigger number the better, a in the fake dynamic range, and fake resolution?

  I have designed systems using similar components, and having a 12-bit DNG is absolutely not an issue, even a bit of lossless compression can be applied, and then the storage speeds and capacity needs would be around 5-6 GB/s for such resolution/framerate.


  Sure cinema is about to please the eye, and marketing is hyping out everything, but if we have a choice, as developers, why pick such volatile side? Especially if it does not take much to be busted.


Regards,

Ing. Daniel Rozsnyo
camera developer
Prague, CZ



On 9/14/20 11:33 AM, Pawel Achtel ACS wrote:

Ø  So Pawel, can you explain, how are you able achieve 14 and 16 stops of DR, with a sensor whose ADC is just 10 and 12 bits, and that INCLUDES noise?

The dynamic was measured using ARRI DRTC target. If anyone is interested (for the right reasons), I’m happy to share those results privately.

The dynamic range was also compared, side-by-side with 3 other leading digital cinema cameras, some claiming 19 stops, and the comparison was very close: all within less than 1 stop. Due to different noise pattern it is hard to tell which one is better or worse. Expect similar dynamic range as top tier digital cinema cameras.



Re: 9x7 Large Format Camera Announced

Pawel Achtel, ACS
 

Daniel,

It appears that you have an agenda and no genuine interest in the 9x7 camera or cinematography in general, but I will answer anyway.

Ø  To me it seems like made from an industrial camera head

No, 9x7 is a digital cinema camera specifically designed for motion picture: starting from lens mount, sensor glass cover right down to recording, monitoring, tools, colour science and full high-end production workflow software and everything in between.

Ø  So Pawel, can you explain, how are you able achieve 14 and 16 stops of DR, with a sensor whose ADC is just 10 and 12 bits, and that INCLUDES noise?

The dynamic was measured using ARRI DRTC target. If anyone is interested (for the right reasons), I’m happy to share those results privately.

The dynamic range was also compared, side-by-side with 3 other leading digital cinema cameras, some claiming 19 stops, and the comparison was very close: all within less than 1 stop. Due to different noise pattern it is hard to tell which one is better or worse. Expect similar dynamic range as top tier digital cinema cameras.

Ø  Al the samples have detail ruined by crude NR and the DR seems about to be 12 stops as on an aged DSLR.

You are entirely entitled to your opinion, Daniel. RAW footage samples can be viewed here and readily compared with any other camera:

               http://achtel.com/9x7/sample.htm

We went through a lot of effort and cost in order to get a wide range of samples, despite Covid restrictions. This is because we believe in our product and more than happy to share footage freely for anyone to pixel peep and compare with that of other cameras.

For those who are genuinely interested in 9x7, I’m also happy to provide still pictures (RAW) shot with Sony A7R VI side-by-side with 9x7.  

To my eye 9x7 wins the dynamic range contest hands down with most other cameras, but I’m not here to discredit any other camera maker. It takes a lot of effort, passion and hard work to bring any camera to market and this should be celebrated as each camera would have its strong points. Even an “aged DSLR”.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc.

“Sharp to the Edge”

 

ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417

Website: www.achtel.com

Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747)

Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia

Address: RA 913 Coles Bay Rd., Coles Bay, TAS 7215, Australia

Location: S 42° 0'14.40"S, E 148°14'47.13"

Email: Pawel.Achtel@...

Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel

Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel

Skype: Pawel.Achtel

_._,_._,_

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