Re: good camera body for steadicam to intercut with Venice footage
Andrew.
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All very good points, I was thinking purely along the lines of picture matching but off course its not just the pictures. The weight is a real problem, I’ve just come of the phone to a friend whose bought an FX9 and thinking about buying an FX6 as a second camera and I was saying just how insanely light it is. We were trying to balance one on a Ronin S with a Sony 24 - 105. Combined weight is well within the limits of the FX6 payload but the body is so light it would’n’t balance. Michael Sanders London based Cinematographer and host of The Camera Channel podcast, available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. + 44 (0) 7976 269818
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Re: good camera body for steadicam to intercut with Venice footage
Michel Suissa
Hi Roberto, Note that the FX6 could be the hardest one to get due to very high demand and relatively low supply. Depending on preference, other options on the market could be the Panasonic GH line, the RED Komodo or even Blackmagic cinema cameras.
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Re: good camera body for steadicam to intercut with Venice footage
Daniel Chung
Roberto, If you are shooting 2x or 1.8x anamorphic I would recommend looking at the Sony FX9, Z CAM F6, S1H or Kinefinity Mavo LF if you want a 4K final output. After the FX9 my guess is the Z CAM will match the Venice the closest. A7S III and FX6 won’t give you the same resolution with anamorphic I have Z CAM and Kinefinity here if you want to try. S1H is easily borrowed. Dan
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 at 19:43, Ganzo <roberto@...> wrote: On the show I'm starting we might not be able to source a 4th Venice body so I'm considering an alternative for the steadicam use. There will be day, night, all lighting conditions. Any knowledgable suggestions for a camera body PL mount that can handle anamorphics that might be more available? In the UK. We're shooting 6K and framing 2:1 by pillarboxing.
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Re: good camera body for steadicam to intercut with Venice footage
Andrew McClymont (Alpha)
On 22 Apr 2021, at 6:20 pm, Michael Sanders via cml.news wrote:
As a Steadicam operator, I would much rather deal with an FX9 or even an FX6 if necessary, than an A7S or FX3. 1. We operators like SDI. We’re not looking at an on-board monitor or viewfinder, so we need a robust and reliable connection to the rig. 2. HDMI-SDI converters are annoying, often produce at least a frame or more of image lag, and are prone to intermittent signal failure. 3. We like the ability to power the camera (if necessary) from the rig. 4. Lens mounts need to be super-solid to avoid vibration 5. In this case, putting professional anamorphic lenses on a lightweight camera essentially means mounting the lens to the Steadicam rig, and the camera to the lens. Which is a lot of fun for quick lens changes ... Also, small cameras can actually be too light. To get a full-size rig working properly, I would be adding a weight plate to an A7S/FX3. So … MiniLFs are a great Steadicam camera.
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Re: good camera body for steadicam to intercut with Venice footage
(Sorry for not signing - I did it via the web interface which didn’t automatically add my signature!)
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Michael Sanders London based Cinematographer and host of The Camera Channel podcast, available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. + 44 (0) 7976 269818
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Re: good camera body for steadicam to intercut with Venice footage
Roberto.. Depending on what you are doing to the pictures they might just work.
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Re: good camera body for steadicam to intercut with Venice footage
K_Skowron
Hi Roberto,
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If the budget is an issue I would definitely consider Lumix S1H, it can handle all the things you mentioned including a PL mount. It's a very powerful and cost effective camera :) I love what Panasonic was able to put in that little body :) Good luck with your project.
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Re: good camera body for steadicam to intercut with Venice footage
Roberto,
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If you’re going that route definitely an FX9 over an FS7. Much better image quality verses the FS7. Speaking from six years of experience owning two FS7’s and twelve months with two FX9’s Kris Denton DP Los Angeles
On Apr 21, 2021, at 9:40 AM, Ganzo <roberto@...> wrote: [Edited Message Follows] Thanks Graham. I have thought of that too but it's not only availability but budget too. I was thinking more like a Sony FX-7 or...-- Roberto Schaefer, ASC, AIC Venice, CA The Key To The Light Is In The Dark
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Re: good camera body for steadicam to intercut with Venice footage
Thanks Graham. I have thought of that too but it's not only availability but budget too. I was thinking more like a Sony FX-7 or...
-- Roberto Schaefer, ASC, AIC Venice, CA The Key To The Light Is In The Dark
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Wednesday Zoom Chat: the FX9 discussion, etc...
Adam Wilt
We’ll discuss the discussion of the FX9 and camera testing, along with: “are the differences worth it, or is it all ego?” Geoff says, “In every test we've done so far the Alexa is the winner, the differences get smaller but it still wins.” Geoff must be mistaken, as the Alexa isn’t even a 4K camera! Right? ;-) Wednesday, April 21: LA 9am, NYC noon, UK 17:00, western Europe 18:00, India 9:30pm Adam Wilt, bringing popcorn, technical services Vancouver WA USA (no, not that Vancouver, the other one)
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Re: good camera body for steadicam to intercut with Venice footage
Graham Futerfas
Hi Roberto, When I worked on ‘Yes Day’ for Netflix, they mixed Venice and Arri Mini LF. Not sure if that helps but maybe you can look at it and see.
-Graham --- Graham Futerfas Director of Photography Los Angeles, CA, USA web www.GFuterfas.com Sent via phone
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good camera body for steadicam to intercut with Venice footage
Roberto Schaefer, ASC, AIC
On the show I'm starting we might not be able to source a 4th Venice body so I'm considering an alternative for the steadicam use. There will be day, night, all lighting conditions. Any knowledgable suggestions for a camera body PL mount that can handle anamorphics that might be more available? In the UK. We're shooting 6K and framing 2:1 by pillarboxing.
-- Roberto Schaefer, ASC, AIC London, England The Key To The Light Is In The Dark
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Re: Sony FX9 camera test
Jared Lorenz
"meticulously measuring those properties in a consistent and repeatable manner" a discipline known as "science!" We all on CML appreciate the effort! FX9 FTW (for the win)! I haven't been this happy to read a white paper since the 5D MKII review from BBC. -- Jared Lorenz Master of Digital Media (candidate) 2021 email: jared@... web: jaredlorenz.com ... This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this for the addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose or take any action based on this message or any information herein. If believe you have received this message in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message. It may contain information that is privileged, confidential or protected from disclosure under applicable law.
On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 7:45 PM Pawel Achtel ACS <pawel.achtel@...> wrote:
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Re: Sony FX9 camera test
Bob Kertesz
Yes you COULD type a novel with an iPhone but would you?You have clearly never received a text from my 89 year old mother. -Bob Bob Kertesz BlueScreen LLC Hollywood, California Mostly Retired Engineer, Video Controller, and Live Compositor Extraordinaire. High quality images for almost five decades - whether you've wanted them or not.© * * * * * * * * * *
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Re: Sony FX9 camera test
John Brawley
No real studio or network show is going to shoot on a Sigma FP with 20Ms+ rolling shutter to consumer media hanging off a USB cable to DNG. It’s a bit of a false argument. Yes you COULD type a novel with an iPhone but would you ? Plenty of shows shoot Arri RAW today and it costs a lot more than 120 per hour, and it’s nothing to do with the camera choice. We went down this theoretical path on this list recently. A heck of lot of narrative drama is still being shot ProRes 4444 though. > >
And you yourself are a manufacturer making claims as well are you not Pawel ? JB John Brawley ACS Cinematographer Los Angeles
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Sony FX9 camera test
Pawel, I agree with this completely. While all cameras are not equal that does not mean that perfect cameras exist. I’m not sure how you’d even define that. Alfonso’s tests are very thorough, and while most people do not seem to know how to do this kind of thing I’m glad there are people out there who do.
At the same time, there are a lot of people out there who think they can do such things and can’t, and that can be a bit damaging.
One should always look at everything a manufacturer says as potential marketing, and be prepared to test for yourself. You will spend a lot of time designing tests, interpreting them, and redoing them because you found things you didn’t expect. And you should also learn how to put them into context. For example, if a camera manufacturer says their camera has 16 stops of dynamic range, are those bottom few stops tones without detail or can you make something out in the noise? And how important is that to you?
Cameras, lenses, monitoring systems, etc. are all incredibly complex and they all interact. Don’t be surprised if you test something and find that your conclusion only holds up until you learn more, at which point you discover you were misinterpreting the results due to something you didn’t recognize or understand at the time. There’s no good place to learn everything that you have to know to evaluate this stuff. You’ll find yourself falling into a pit of knowledge that is both perpetual and deep.
-Art
From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> on behalf of Pawel Achtel ACS via cml.news <pawel.achtel=24x7.com.au@...> Art Adams wrote: “There have been a lot of cameras sold with the promise of being as good as more expensive cameras for lower cost. I have yet to find one that I personally found to be as good as the more expensive option in one way or another. It still takes money and knowhow to tame physics.”
I tend to be with Art on this one. More often than not you get what you pay for. And, it is when you push the camera “out of the comfort zone”, the limitations become much more apparent.
What doesn’t help make informed camera choices is wide-spread misinformation and claims made by some manufacturers. This is why independent tests, like the one performed by Alfonso, are so valuable. (and, to be clear, I’m not saying that Sony is making misleading claims, they are in good books most of the time).
Through my own testing I found that most digital cinema cameras have very similar dynamic range (within a stop) despite vastly different claimed performance on paper. But, even though the actual dynamic range may be similar, there are other, more critical and more clearly discernible differences: like low light performance, noise, colour accuracy and range, contrast (MTF) and artefacts (compression and aliasing). In fact, some really striking differences and relatively easy to test side-by-side or, like Alfonso did, by meticulously measuring those properties in a consistent and repeatable manner.
Kind Regards,
Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc. “Sharp to the Edge”
ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417 Website: www.achtel.com Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747) Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia Address: RA 913 Coles Bay Rd., Coles Bay, TAS 7215, Australia Location: S 42° 0'14.40"S, E 148°14'47.13" Email: Pawel.Achtel@... Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel Skype: Pawel.Achtel
This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet.
From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... [mailto:cml-raw-log-hdr@...]
On Behalf Of Art Adams
Sent: Tuesday, 20 April 2021 9:22 AM To: cml-raw-log-hdr@... Subject: [cml-raw-log-hdr] Sony FX9 camera test
The camera choice is all too often driven by ego and politics, rather than camera capabilities.
This can be true. I once had to shoot a marketing product roll-out where the client mandated we shoot in 8K for 1080p release… because. There was no reason for it other than it was cool, and 8K was 4.2x greater than 1.9K.
But this is not always the case, or even mostly the case. I don’t know of any situations where someone chose to shoot with a cheaper camera because they liked the quality more than the more expensive camera.
There have been a lot of cameras sold with the promise of being as good as more expensive cameras for lower cost. I have yet to find one that I personally found to be as good as the more expensive option in one way or another. It still takes money and knowhow to tame physics.
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Re: Sony FX9 camera test
Art Adams wrote: “There have been a lot of cameras sold with the promise of being as good as more expensive cameras for lower cost. I have yet to find one that I personally found to be as good as the more expensive option in one way or another. It still takes money and knowhow to tame physics.”
I tend to be with Art on this one. More often than not you get what you pay for. And, it is when you push the camera “out of the comfort zone”, the limitations become much more apparent.
What doesn’t help make informed camera choices is wide-spread misinformation and claims made by some manufacturers. This is why independent tests, like the one performed by Alfonso, are so valuable. (and, to be clear, I’m not saying that Sony is making misleading claims, they are in good books most of the time).
Through my own testing I found that most digital cinema cameras have very similar dynamic range (within a stop) despite vastly different claimed performance on paper. But, even though the actual dynamic range may be similar, there are other, more critical and more clearly discernible differences: like low light performance, noise, colour accuracy and range, contrast (MTF) and artefacts (compression and aliasing). In fact, some really striking differences and relatively easy to test side-by-side or, like Alfonso did, by meticulously measuring those properties in a consistent and repeatable manner.
Kind Regards,
Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc. “Sharp to the Edge”
ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417 Website: www.achtel.com Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747) Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia Address: RA 913 Coles Bay Rd., Coles Bay, TAS 7215, Australia Location: S 42° 0'14.40"S, E 148°14'47.13" Email: Pawel.Achtel@... Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel Skype: Pawel.Achtel
From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... [mailto:cml-raw-log-hdr@...] On Behalf Of Art Adams
Sent: Tuesday, 20 April 2021 9:22 AM To: cml-raw-log-hdr@... Subject: [cml-raw-log-hdr] Sony FX9 camera test
The camera choice is all too often driven by ego and politics, rather than camera capabilities.
This can be true. I once had to shoot a marketing product roll-out where the client mandated we shoot in 8K for 1080p release… because. There was no reason for it other than it was cool, and 8K was 4.2x greater than 1.9K.
But this is not always the case, or even mostly the case. I don’t know of any situations where someone chose to shoot with a cheaper camera because they liked the quality more than the more expensive camera.
There have been a lot of cameras sold with the promise of being as good as more expensive cameras for lower cost. I have yet to find one that I personally found to be as good as the more expensive option in one way or another. It still takes money and knowhow to tame physics.
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Sony FX9 camera test
The camera choice is all too often driven by ego and politics, rather than camera capabilities.
This can be true. I once had to shoot a marketing product roll-out where the client mandated we shoot in 8K for 1080p release… because. There was no reason for it other than it was cool, and 8K was 4.2x greater than 1.9K.
But this is not always the case, or even mostly the case. I don’t know of any situations where someone chose to shoot with a cheaper camera because they liked the quality more than the more expensive camera.
There have been a lot of cameras sold with the promise of being as good as more expensive cameras for lower cost. I have yet to find one that I personally found to be as good as the more expensive option in one way or another. It still takes money and knowhow to tame physics.
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Re: Sony FX9 camera test
Noel Sterrett
On 4/19/21 3:49 PM, Art Adams wrote:
And quite a few projects do not shoot raw for budgetary reasonsI can shoot uncompressed 12 bit RAW on a Sigma fp for $120/hour. My first low budget in-the-can $128k movie spent 10 times that on film and processing alone. Red claims a patent on compressed RAW, and so we are left spending inordinate amounts of time and energy debating various encoding schemes invented by camera manufacturers to avoid the patent claim rather than just recording uncompressed RAW. A "Raw Film Camera" has no features which degrade the data which the sensor produces. Like a film camera, it has some type of viewfinder, a start/stop button, and optinally a speed control. "As simple as it can be and no simpler" - Albert E. Noel Sterrett | Admit One Pictures | Atlanta
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Re: Sony FX9 camera test
Noel Sterrett
On 4/19/21 3:49 PM, Art Adams wrote:
If all cameras were equal we’d be watching Marvel movies shot on $5,000 cameras, and we aren’t.The camera choice is all too often driven by ego and politics, rather than camera capabilities. Noel Sterrett | Admit One Pictures | Atlanta
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