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Re: Integrity - was Curves and Bit Depth

Pedro Emauz
 

Hey Adrian, 
It's good to remember this is an international forum and that there are a lot of us who don't speak or write in English as our first language, and don't understand a word of the slang you wrote. 
Best,

Pedro Emauz
DP
Lisbon Portugal
Sent from my phone

On 29 Dec 2020, at 07:08, Adrian Jebef via cml.news <adrianjebef=yahoo.com@...> wrote:

MG that's like the best way to say, " Nestor Almendros is a great DP.....  but.....  I'm not that guy. "


Yo that was like 40-some-fing-years-ago when NesAlm told Brackman + Schneider (cubed) that he was gonna shoot the entire picture at sunrise and sunset cause that's why he showed up in the first place. From what I hear, and I head that from the fourth source, Nessy Dross flat out laid down his PLAN in front of ALL dem old farts during PrePro. He done SLAPP'D his book on the table and turned to page WE'RE DOIMG IT TIS WAY CAUSE ME AND MALICKY WANT TO. The bts picture I hass shows ALL deez olwhite dude mouth on da floor jus STARING in dezbelieef. BUT sneaky NSTOR-ALME jus smile and gently REVEAL his intent. Itz da frickn   - W O R K F L O W -   y'all. 

Damn

Yeah

Damn

I heard that shit was HARD.

But people seem to remember it. Which is nice.



Adrian Jebef
camera intern









On Monday, December 28, 2020, 10:49:42 PM PST, Mitch Gross <mitchgrosscml@...> wrote:


On Dec 29, 2020, at 1:03 AM, Pawel Achtel ACS <pawel.achtel@...> wrote:

often the biggest limitation of all is the attitude that people have towards their work


It’s not that we don’t all want to do our very best work, it’s that we have to perform within a system with others. There can be completely justifiable reasons (such as time) that a client or post does not want to work one way and prefers to work another. We all have to work together.

Hey, I’d like to only shoot during magic hour. Three shots a day in my perfect light. Sorry but your one day shoot is going to take a week because I’m unwilling to compromise my artistic integrity.

We all make choices when appropriate. Shooting uncompressed RAW is lovely but often not necessary.


Mitch Gross
New York


Re: Integrity - was Curves and Bit Depth

Jonathon Sendall
 

"MG that's like the best way to say, " Nestor Almendros is a great DP.....  but.....  I'm not that guy. "
 
 
Yo that was like 40-some-fing-years-ago when NesAlm told Brackman + Schneider (cubed) that he was gonna shoot the entire picture at sunrise and sunset cause that's why he showed up in the first place. From what I hear, and I head that from the fourth source, Nessy Dross flat out laid down his PLAN in front of ALL dem old farts during PrePro. He done SLAPP'D his book on the table and turned to page WE'RE DOIMG IT TIS WAY CAUSE ME AND MALICKY WANT TO. The bts picture I hass shows ALL deez olwhite dude mouth on da floor jus STARING in dezbelieef. BUT sneaky NSTOR-ALME jus smile and gently REVEAL his intent. Itz da frickn   - W O R K F L O W -   y'all. 
 
Damn
 
Yeah
 
Damn
 
I heard that shit was HARD.
 
But people seem to remember it. Which is nice.
 
 
 
Adrian Jebef
camera intern"

Well old chap, (sorry old fart lingo), Zsigmond and Cimino make a nice little movie called "Heavens Gate", looked beautiful, can't fault the images, much of it shot at magic hour. Unfortunately it sank the studio, but hey who cares about the studio, I mean they only pay your wages and release your "bootifull" images. And Mitch is right, try to use actual English, not because it's the right thing to do but because you might be misunderstood and we wouldn't want that. Go on give it a shot . . . bro  ;0)

Jonathon Sendall
DP, London UK


Re: Integrity - was Curves and Bit Depth

Geoff Boyle
 

Hey, I’d like to only shoot during magic hour. Three shots a day in my perfect light. Sorry but your one day shoot is going to take a week because I’m unwilling to compromise my artistic integrity.

 

The commercial linked below had a $1.5M budget allowing for inflation, it was shot in ’95.

We had the luxury of doing the same shot at dawn for 4 days.

We had a Wescam, a Louma, an underwater unit and 2 “normal” cameras.

Not many jobs are like that, I was lucky enough to do quite a few.

https://gboyle.nl/BA%20QT.HTM

 

You do the best you can with what you’ve got, 4 years later I experimented with shooting handheld out of a helicopter using an 11.25 degree shutter and scanning at 2K for a SD finish and adding motion blur. I never used Wescam again. Technology changes and we change with it.

Today my neighbour with his drone could do better.

 

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076

www.gboyle.nl

www.cinematography.net

Become a CML Patron https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=43292735

 

 


Re: Integrity - was Curves and Bit Depth

Maxwell Geoffrey
 

Pawel,

     I don't think anyone here is actually advocating for working in a manner in which one must sacrifice their integrity just for the sake of getting paid or getting a job done, and I'm sure if we all owned our favorite cameras we'd happily shoot with them whenever we could.  Your goal with your work may be to capture images that are of the absolute highest technical quality and - as you sign your messages - "sharp to the edge".  There's nothing wrong with that, and if you can find enough work that allows you to uphold those values on every project you do, then that's great.  Frankly however, different things matter to different people, and if being able to work on a project you're passionate about means having to shoot in a compressed format, RAW or not, then so be it.  The reason for such a compromise may stem from the need for a fast turnaround on a project or to spend less time on set backing everything up, it might be because that's what works for everyone involved in the post production pipeline on a project, or it may be as simple as being on location with a limited number of cards and needing to make sure the director can get all the shots they want.  These problems are dealt with on productions of all budget sizes, so it's up to the DP to know whether or not the final image will actually suffer to a point where it isn't usable anymore.  That being said, for the vast majority of us, choosing one recording format over another or even one camera over another is by no means sacrificing our integrity.
     If anything, the widespread trend of DPs shooting with vintage or anamorphic lenses should be enough evidence that shooting images which are "sharp to the edge" just isn't a priority for all of us.  It doesn't mean we aren't aware of the technicalities of our craft, but why should someone turn down shooting with a particular lens just because it has a poor MTF?  If it makes the image they want, one that feels right for the particular project, isn't turning it down just because a graph says it's technically not as good as something else also sacrificing their integrity?  Film is an art form, and no matter how insanely technical its crafts may be, what ultimately matters is how the audience feels when watching it.  If you want things to feel as if they were captured flawlessly, thats fine, but if you want them to feel less technically perfect, that's fine too.  As Geoff often says, "fuck the numbers".  Just make images which work for whatever it is that you're trying to do.

Best Wishes,

Maxwell Geoffrey
DP | Colorist
New York


Re: Integrity - was Curves and Bit Depth

Mitch Gross
 

It would be nice if you replied using actual words. 

Of course I chose that example for a reason. Because it was appropriate for that film and they had the budget and schedule to do it. Just as Field of Dreams, Like Water for Chocolate, and numerous others. But it’s not appropriate for all shoots which was my point. 

I do haves the knowin’ of a lot of things. Please actually read what is written and reply to what those words actually state rather than some partial twist thereof. If we are all to treat one another as professionals than we should act as such, which are in fact the basic rules of the CML. 


Mitch Gross
New York

On Dec 29, 2020, at 2:08 AM, Adrian Jebef via cml.news <adrianjebef=yahoo.com@...> wrote:


MG that's like the best way to say, " Nestor Almendros is a great DP.....  but.....  I'm not that guy. "


Yo that was like 40-some-fing-years-ago when NesAlm told Brackman + Schneider (cubed) that he was gonna shoot the entire picture at sunrise and sunset cause that's why he showed up in the first place. From what I hear, and I head that from the fourth source, Nessy Dross flat out laid down his PLAN in front of ALL dem old farts during PrePro. He done SLAPP'D his book on the table and turned to page WE'RE DOIMG IT TIS WAY CAUSE ME AND MALICKY WANT TO. The bts picture I hass shows ALL deez olwhite dude mouth on da floor jus STARING in dezbelieef. BUT sneaky NSTOR-ALME jus smile and gently REVEAL his intent. Itz da frickn   - W O R K F L O W -   y'all. 

Damn

Yeah

Damn

I heard that shit was HARD.

But people seem to remember it. Which is nice.



Adrian Jebef
camera intern









On Monday, December 28, 2020, 10:49:42 PM PST, Mitch Gross <mitchgrosscml@...> wrote:


On Dec 29, 2020, at 1:03 AM, Pawel Achtel ACS <pawel.achtel@...> wrote:

often the biggest limitation of all is the attitude that people have towards their work


It’s not that we don’t all want to do our very best work, it’s that we have to perform within a system with others. There can be completely justifiable reasons (such as time) that a client or post does not want to work one way and prefers to work another. We all have to work together.

Hey, I’d like to only shoot during magic hour. Three shots a day in my perfect light. Sorry but your one day shoot is going to take a week because I’m unwilling to compromise my artistic integrity.

We all make choices when appropriate. Shooting uncompressed RAW is lovely but often not necessary.


Mitch Gross
New York


Re: Integrity - was Curves and Bit Depth

Adrian Jebef
 

MG that's like the best way to say, " Nestor Almendros is a great DP.....  but.....  I'm not that guy. "


Yo that was like 40-some-fing-years-ago when NesAlm told Brackman + Schneider (cubed) that he was gonna shoot the entire picture at sunrise and sunset cause that's why he showed up in the first place. From what I hear, and I head that from the fourth source, Nessy Dross flat out laid down his PLAN in front of ALL dem old farts during PrePro. He done SLAPP'D his book on the table and turned to page WE'RE DOIMG IT TIS WAY CAUSE ME AND MALICKY WANT TO. The bts picture I hass shows ALL deez olwhite dude mouth on da floor jus STARING in dezbelieef. BUT sneaky NSTOR-ALME jus smile and gently REVEAL his intent. Itz da frickn   - W O R K F L O W -   y'all. 

Damn

Yeah

Damn

I heard that shit was HARD.

But people seem to remember it. Which is nice.



Adrian Jebef
camera intern









On Monday, December 28, 2020, 10:49:42 PM PST, Mitch Gross <mitchgrosscml@...> wrote:


On Dec 29, 2020, at 1:03 AM, Pawel Achtel ACS <pawel.achtel@...> wrote:

often the biggest limitation of all is the attitude that people have towards their work


It’s not that we don’t all want to do our very best work, it’s that we have to perform within a system with others. There can be completely justifiable reasons (such as time) that a client or post does not want to work one way and prefers to work another. We all have to work together.

Hey, I’d like to only shoot during magic hour. Three shots a day in my perfect light. Sorry but your one day shoot is going to take a week because I’m unwilling to compromise my artistic integrity.

We all make choices when appropriate. Shooting uncompressed RAW is lovely but often not necessary.


Mitch Gross
New York


Re: Integrity - was Curves and Bit Depth

Mitch Gross
 

On Dec 29, 2020, at 1:03 AM, Pawel Achtel ACS <pawel.achtel@...> wrote:

often the biggest limitation of all is the attitude that people have towards their work


It’s not that we don’t all want to do our very best work, it’s that we have to perform within a system with others. There can be completely justifiable reasons (such as time) that a client or post does not want to work one way and prefers to work another. We all have to work together.

Hey, I’d like to only shoot during magic hour. Three shots a day in my perfect light. Sorry but your one day shoot is going to take a week because I’m unwilling to compromise my artistic integrity.

We all make choices when appropriate. Shooting uncompressed RAW is lovely but often not necessary.


Mitch Gross
New York


Re: Integrity - was Curves and Bit Depth

Pawel Achtel, ACS
 

Ø  [Brian Heller] - As David Watkin said: “If they paid me to, I would shoot with the lens cap on.”

Ø   

Ø  Of course, RAW is theoretically “better”, but so what.  For instance,

Ø   if the optics are not 1st rate, all the data in the world isn’t going to help.

I read some of those comments with great sadness. Is this how low our industry has gone?

Not only are those comments completely irrelevant to discussion about pros and cons of Sigma fp (both technical and practical), but also highlight that often the biggest limitation of all is the attitude that people have towards their work.

Integrity is important. And, yes, I have declined many jobs which insisted on constraints that would result in an outcome that I wouldn’t be proud of.

There were also productions that were happy for me to shoot with a GoPro - I turned up on the set with a top-of-the-range setup at no additional charge and put as much effort as I would, if it was a hundred million dollar production.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc.

“Sharp to the Edge”

 

ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417

Website: www.achtel.com

Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747)

Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia

Address: RA 913 Coles Bay Rd., Coles Bay, TAS 7215, Australia

Location: S 42° 0'14.40"S, E 148°14'47.13"

Email: Pawel.Achtel@...

Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel

Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel

Skype: Pawel.Achtel

,_


Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Adrian Jebef
 

 Audio Sound Mixers are driving Sprinter Cargo Van”

That’s cause Sound Guyz know what da fuk is up! Straight Fire Paul! KEEP SLAPPIN’!

-AJ
camera trainee







On Dec 28, 2020, at 5:20 PM, Paul Lawrence <paul@...> wrote:

Audio Sound Mixers are driving Sprinter Cargo Van


Paul Andrew Lawrence, Your Sound Guy


Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Paul Lawrence
 

Audio Sound Mixers are driving Sprinter Cargo Van


Paul Andrew Lawrence, Your Sound Guy


Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Miguel Bunster
 

Mic Drop

Miguel bunster

On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 at 16:55 Mitch Gross <mitchgrosscml@...> wrote:
On Dec 28, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Mark Weingartner, ASC via cml.news <vfxmark=me.com@...> wrote:

Most of us DPs are driving Porsches with the occasional Maserati or Ferrari - Camrys are for writers :-)



Mark wins line of the day.

Mitch Gross
New York

--
Miguel Bunster
www.miguelbunster.com
LA - (323) 963-4397
Chile - 7.9652894


Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Noel Sterrett
 

On 12/28/20 5:51 PM, Brian Heller wrote:
I would love to see any DIT or DP (without foreknowledge of the process) to view a final product
and identify the camera or lens or the Codec or the bit depth or the post path taken on a given film.
When I see compression, blown taillights, yellow peaking, other artifacts, I just know I don't like
whatever camera/lens/codec/process/grader produced it.

A RAW workflow doesn't solve all problems, but it can fix quite a few of them.


Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Brian Heller
 

What Mark and Mitch have said :-)

I am totally camera, sensor, Ganma curve, Bit Depth, RAW/compressed, post path agnostic.

As David Watkin said: “If they paid me to, I would shoot with the lens cap on.”

Of course, RAW is theoretically “better”, but so what.  For instance,
 if the optics are not 1st rate, all the data in the world isn’t going to help.

I would love to see any DIT or DP (without foreknowledge of the process) to view a final product and identify the camera or lens or the Codec or the bit depth or the post path taken on a given film.

Brian Heller
IA 600 DP


On Dec 28, 2020, at 2:59 AM, Adrian Jebef via cml.news <adrianjebef=yahoo.com@...> wrote:

lol

I swear these threads always derail into a bunch of old farts yelling at each other to slow down. Like, “Don’t push the Camery past 65 or Momma gonna find out!” It seems y’all know best: let off the gas.

Sorry some of you don’t care. Sorry Sigma released a camera that is too powerful. Sorry Geoff doesn’t have any DIT friends with a new computer. And sorry if I offend some fragile DP ego. Oh well that’s the film biz for ya. Ya can’t have it all. Maybe Sigma will add HD ProRes Log recording in the mark ii.

Adrian Jebef
DIT







On Dec 27, 2020, at 10:46 PM, Maxwell Geoffrey <maxwell@...> wrote:


Pawel,

     While do agree with most of what you’re saying from a technical standpoint, I think you’re missing the point that Mitch and Geoff are making.
     Firstly, while uncompressed RAW is certainly a gold standard in terms of getting the absolute highest quality recording from a given camera sensor, the files are bigger and do require more attention to be paid to them in post to ensure that the images shot on set are what actually gets delivered in a final deliverable.  Compressed (non-RAW) recordings will work seamlessly in a REC 709 workflow with almost any NLE and grading application, simply requiring a show LUT or power grade to achieve a finished image.  No attention needs to be paid to ensuring that the proper metadata for ISO, white balance, and gamma curve are being used for each shot, and unlike RAW, the shots don’t require any post production noise reduction.  All of this is completely unfeasible on shoots with faster turnarounds, regardless of budget, but especially on lower budget productions.
     Moreover, the space savings of not shooting RAW, no matter how insignificant they may seem on paper or how cheap storage media becomes, ultimately translate to more shooting time on set, less money spent on drives for backups, or both.  Personally, I’d much rather work with uncompressed RAW that was encoded as 12 bit log, because the 25% smaller files compared to 16 bit linear mean that I get a fourth take on a card if I need it or more later if I don’t, and frankly, I can’t think of a single time when I haven’t been able to roll off the highlights in a grade to my liking because a few extra pixels were encoded at (for example) code value 4071 instead of whatever the 16 bit linear equivalent of 4071.25 may have been.
     In a realistic situation, shooting a short turnaround project on a camera like the C300 Mark III and choosing to shoot 10 bit XF-AVC at 410Mbps over the 12 bit 1Gbps compressed RAW nets me 144% more recording time and a 59% savings in media costs, and if I want higher quality, I can shoot at 810Mbps and still net 12% more recording time and offer a space savings of 19%.  Both of these options save the headache of shooting RAW and then having to oversee the entire post production color management pipeline, which is frankly nonexistent on this kind of project.
     To wrap up on less of a technical context, while I do agree with you that DPs should definitely understand the technicalities of the entire image creation and finishing pipelines, those technicalities often don’t matter nearly as much as we sometimes like to think they do.  As much as technical testing may be a part of our job in pre-production, what ultimately gets seen and gets us hired again are the images we shoot on set, and if they don’t move people or serve the story well, then who cares what bit depth or codec the source files were?  Just my thoughts.

Best Wishes,

Maxwell Geoffrey
DP | Colorist
New York

On Dec 27, 2020, at 18:00, Pawel Achtel ACS <pawel.achtel@...> wrote:



Ø  [Mitch Gross] Uncompressed RAW is the best quality — so what? It is a more burdensome workflow because it does not deliver an immediate result in the form most clients want and it requires more memory which means more time in transfers.

You are confusing two things: Log curve (which saves very little space) and compression (which requires additional compression in camera and decompression in post).

 

Log, or let’s call it in general: input curve, can easily travel as metadata or be applied in edit/viewing environment. There is negligible overhead of doing so. It doesn’t need to be “backed-in”. The size benefit of log raw vs. linear raw is relatively minor.

 

Compressed raw requires more powerful hardware (GPU), not less. In particular on a notebook. But, Sigma fp offers both compressed formats and uncompressed DNG. You can chose. Compatibility wise: uncompressed Cinema DNG can be readily used in any NLE and workflow tools and it is more compatible than any compressed raw. For example, BRAW is not widely supported on anything but Resolve and even Resolve requires expensive GPU. RED RAW requires decent GPU too.

Ø  [Geoff Boyle] Of course we need objective measurements but ultimately we work in a world where taste is more important than fact.

Yes, but if we don’t change it no one else will. It amazes me how many DOPs do not know how to produce or read MTF graph or measure dynamic range or measure colour accuracy or gamut of a camera. As part of the industry we need to stick to the fact and objectivity. It is important.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc.

“Sharp to the Edge”

 

ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417

Website: www.achtel.com

Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747)

Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia

Address: RA 913 Coles Bay Rd., Coles Bay, TAS 7215, Australia

Location: S 42° 0'14.40"S, E 148°14'47.13"

Email: Pawel.Achtel@...

Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel

Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel

Skype: Pawel.Achtel


Re: Sigma fp

Noel Sterrett
 

On 12/28/20 5:53 AM, Paul Curtis wrote:
Uncompressed DNG is fine for a lot of cases and when you offload you can offload via SlimRAW
straight to lossless compressed DNG and save quite a bit
You can save a great deal. Uncompressed 12bit 4K DCI output of the Sigma fp is ~ 240Mb/sec. That's ~
1 TB/hour. If your use slimRAW, you can copy that uncompressed RAW to two drives simultaneously
(with error checking), compress from 0 to 7:1, and still be undeveloped RAW.

Compression at 7:1 is ~150Mb/s. That's a date rate we were doing 20 years ago. So it's not really
about data rate, the real question is whether or not to stay RAW (including various compression
levels), or bake it with some other compression scheme.

I see no reason to be in a hurry to bake.

The entire workflow, including proxies which slimRAW can create, could be RAW but just at different
compression levels. No doubt efx would want uncompressed, but editing could do with 3:1, mix with
5:1, and producers get the highest number, 7:1.

Many problems could be avoided by everyone staying in the same RAW sandbox.


Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Mitch Gross
 

Ok, now we ARE starting to sound like old farts. 

Mitch “Get off my lawn!” Gross
New York


Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Tom Tcimpidis
 

We are in a gated community with private roads so you CAN legally drive them here.  😊 

>>> We retired types would drive golf carts if they were street legal.


--
-Tom

Semi-retired DIT/VC and Doer Of All Things Technical
TGT Technologies LLC
Greater Atlanta, Nashville and D.C. areas


Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Bob Kertesz
 

On 12/28/2020 1:01:15 PM, Noel Sterrett wrote:
On 12/28/20 3:57 PM, Tom Tcimpidis wrote:
And we techie types drive Teslas…
We writers drive Bolts.

We retired types would drive golf carts if they were street legal.

-Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California

Mostly Retired Engineer, Video Controller, and Live Compositor Extraordinaire.

High quality images for almost five decades - whether you've wanted them or not.©

* * * * * * * * * *



Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Noel Sterrett
 

On 12/28/20 3:57 PM, Tom Tcimpidis wrote:
And we techie types drive Teslas…
We writers drive Bolts.


Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Tom Tcimpidis
 

And we techie types drive Teslas…

 

On Dec 28, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Mark Weingartner, ASC via cml.news <vfxmark=me.com@...> wrote:
Most of us DPs are driving Porsches with the occasional Maserati or Ferrari - Camrys are for writers :-)




--
-Tom

Semi-retired DIT/VC and Doer Of All Things Technical
TGT Technologies LLC
Greater Atlanta, Nashville and D.C. areas


Re: Curves and Bit Depth - was Sigma fp

Mitch Gross
 

On Dec 28, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Mark Weingartner, ASC via cml.news <vfxmark=me.com@...> wrote:

Most of us DPs are driving Porsches with the occasional Maserati or Ferrari - Camrys are for writers :-)



Mark wins line of the day.

Mitch Gross
New York

161 - 180 of 1943