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HDR mastering monitorsing dering for a buy this year, or

Carroll, Robert
 

We will soon be publishing the test we conduct when a post facility opts to be certified by Dolby. As I stated before Certification by Dolby is an option. It is not required to deliver Dolby Vision content. Testing monitors is part of this certification. We are working with Steve and others on the best methods for this test using the available tools like LightSpace. His feedback is always welcomed.

Rob Carroll
Dolby

Steve Shaw
 

As has been proven each and every time, I never state anything that isn't fact.
As shown here, with the irrefutable information on the volumetric issues with the Panasonic WOLED.

I make sure any statement made is correct, before making it, rather than spout hype.

It is also very simple for anyone else to verify the issues with the Panasonic WOLEDs, as has been proven in this thread.
To attempt to argue the issue doesn't exist is rather a foolish thing to do in the face of such proof.
Spectracal have actually pointed out the same issue themselves, although without the easy to understand graphical proof.

And talking of Spectracal , it does seem we are are rather good at finding issues, as Spectracal have just publicly thanked us, and our users, for pointing out an error with their LUT calculation they had missed.

I will let Dolby speak for themselves, as and when they decide to release verification our findings.

Steve 

Dado Valentic
 

Geoff, it is always great to see you in action, doing what you love and are passionate about and also doing so well. Looking forward to listening to you there :-)

D
ado Valentic
colour specialist
​London/LA


Geoff Boyle
 

If you want to listen to someone else at the Amsterdam AV festival, well i land in Schipol at 9am on Thursday and do the first of four presentation's at noon!

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076
www.gboyle.co.uk


On Tue, 5 Jun 2018, 16:24 Dado Valentic, <dado@...> wrote:
Steve,

If you think that you have found any issues with any company out there than you should take it up with them directly and in confidentiality and not post in public forums.
This is minimum professional conduct you should have and as Geoff has mentioned - no rumours - just facts. 
You have only a suspicion that there might be an issue and let Dolby respond to you, no need to post here.

For anyone else interested in learning about a different point of view than the one on this thread, I would suggest company that I use for all my colourimetry and monitor performance questions - Spectra Cal. They don't need to spam forums with their wisdom as we all know how good they are. It might explain why my monitors don't have problems Light Illusion is preaching about.
On the same note, if you think like me that monitor calibration is as boring as watching paint dry, I can recommend company I use in USA for calibration of my monitors - Abel Cine. They have made my life a pleasure when it comes to calibration at least.

For anybody else interested in what happens after painfully selecting HDR monitor, I will be back in Europe this Saturday in my most favorite city Amsterdam on AV festival, doing a talk on A-Z of HDR from the real world perspective. If you happen to be in Amsterdam pop by and and ask me a question during QandA session.

Dado Valentic
Colour specialist
London/LA




Dado Valentic
 

Steve,

If you think that you have found any issues with any company out there than you should take it up with them directly and in confidentiality and not post in public forums.
This is minimum professional conduct you should have and as Geoff has mentioned - no rumours - just facts. 
You have only a suspicion that there might be an issue and let Dolby respond to you, no need to post here.

For anyone else interested in learning about a different point of view than the one on this thread, I would suggest company that I use for all my colourimetry and monitor performance questions - Spectra Cal. They don't need to spam forums with their wisdom as we all know how good they are. It might explain why my monitors don't have problems Light Illusion is preaching about.
On the same note, if you think like me that monitor calibration is as boring as watching paint dry, I can recommend company I use in USA for calibration of my monitors - Abel Cine. They have made my life a pleasure when it comes to calibration at least.

For anybody else interested in what happens after painfully selecting HDR monitor, I will be back in Europe this Saturday in my most favorite city Amsterdam on AV festival, doing a talk on A-Z of HDR from the real world perspective. If you happen to be in Amsterdam pop by and and ask me a question during QandA session.

Dado Valentic
Colour specialist
London/LA




Carroll, Robert
 

Allow me to clarify a few items in this thread. Dolby does not certify professional reference monitors by make and model for Dolby Vision. We do certify a Dolby Vision Mastering facility. This certification includes colorist and engineering training as well as the full systems testing in the room for mastering. Find out more by clicking the certification tab here: https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-vision/dolby-vision-for-creative-professionals.html

In regard to professional monitors for mastering HDR content we have a recommended minimum specification. That spec is:

1,000 Nits peak brightness
.005 Nits black levels
200,000 : 1 contrast ratio
P3 minimum color gamut
SMPTE 2084 EOTF

Several monitors are offered in the market that meet these minimum specs and state in their marketing literature "qualifies as a Dolby Vision mastering monitor".  This simply states that they meet our recommended minimum spec.

I hope this helps.
Robert Carroll
Sr. Director Content Solutions - Dolby Vision.

Steve Shaw
 
Edited

“The Eizo CG3145 qualifies as a Dolby Vision mastering monitor”

That is what I was referring to when I used the word 'certified', as I suspect that anyone would take such a statement to mean something like that.

We often work closely with Dolby, and they were the ones that mentioned the 'acceptance' (is that a better word?) of the Eizo, and the upcoming FSI (now 3000 nits!)

I can't answer the 12 bit question, as I don't know what output cards are 12 bit capable.
But, the reason that Dolby specify 12 bits is due the aggressive EOTF of PQ HDR, and the relative (actually absolute) spacing of the bits. Anything less than 12 bits will show/cause banding.

But as there is no 12 bit broadcast signal, it is a bit of a moot point tbh.

We have also pointed out a mathematical error in Dolby's EOTF data, and are waiting for feedback from Dolby.

Steve
Light Illusion

Dave Roman
 

Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] HDR mastering monitorsing dering for a buy this year, or

In Kevin’s defence I should have informed him about the rules for posting on cml as he’s new to the forum. I’ve been following the thread on “certification” of HDR mastering monitors with great interest and had a demo of the Eizo 3145 in Vancouver with Kevin this past Wednesday. I filled him in on the discussion and he posted to clarify. Great monitor IMHO by the way. 

Dave Roman
Colorist
Vancouver, BC, Canada
t: (1) 639 317 7724

Kevin Burke
 

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 01:12 am, Kevin Burke wrote:

I've let this through because it's an important message but next time it will be signed per the rules won't it.
Thanks for running my previous post, Geoff. Newbie mistake about my identity. I thought I had set a signature during account setup but I guess it didn't take. It was my intention to make sure the group knew that this message was coming from someone at Eizo.

Kevin Burke
EIZO USA

Jacques Mersereau
 



On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 2:56 AM, <kevin.burke@...> wrote:
<Addressing the question about who “certified” the Eizo PROMINENCE CG3145 for HDR mastering, >

Hi Kevin,

If you don't mind answering this question, what is the MSRP on your monitor?

(please include your contact info and sig <grin>)




^^^^^^^^^^^^

Jacques Mersereau
The Duderstadt Center 
University of Michigan
Video Studio Managing Producer
2281 Bonisteel Blvd.
Ann Arbor, MI  48109
< jacmer@...>

Kevin Burke
 

Addressing the question about who “certified” the Eizo PROMINENCE CG3145 for HDR mastering, I would like to clear up any confusion about this topic. As much as we’d like this to be the case, Dolby does not certify professional monitors for Dolby Vision HDR mastering. However they do evaluate HDR monitors provided by manufacturers and have provided Eizo with the following statement we are authorized to use publicly: “The Eizo CG3145 qualifies as a Dolby Vision mastering monitor”. Also, per the Netflix website page titled "Color Grading: Dolby Vision / HDR", the PROMINENCE CG3145 qualifies as a monitor that can be used for grading HDR deliverables for Netflix, based on this bullet point: " • Other HDR reference monitors as certified by Dolby for Dolby Vision HDR grading". 

I've let this through because it's an important message but next time it will be signed per the rules won't it.

Sebastian Plamadeala
 

Hello,

Super discussions so far, thank you for your wonderful inputs.

Forgive me if i ask a newbie question, but i see Dolby says for Vision mastering, the monitor should have 12 bit depth.
What i do not get, is how you output 12bit from sdi (aja kona 4, etc) to hdmi (for instance to an Eizo), since the aja Hi5-4K-Plus can only output 10bit to the hdmi 2.0. Is there an sdi to hdmi box out there for Vision HDR?

Thank you!

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Nick Shaw <nick@...> wrote:

On 31 May 2018, at 09:46, Kevin Shaw <kevs@...> wrote:

BMD and resolve can send the HDR flag, but currently only in ultrastudio 4k extreme 3 because it requires HDMI 2.0

The low cost Mini Monitor 4K can also have the HDR metadata flags set by Resolve, without the need for additional external hardware. 

Nick (not Kevin or Steve!) Shaw

Workflow Consultant 
Antler Post
UK

Steve Shaw
 

Should add/ask - if using a professional HDR display there should be no need for any metadata to be sent to the display to enable HDR mode.
The display should just be calibrated for an HDR input (PQ or HLG), and in the case of PQ with no tone mapping/roll off.

That should be it.

If you have a 'display' (read TV) that required metadata to enable its HDR mode, you should not be using it in a professional environment.

Steve
Light Illusion

Nick Shaw
 


On 31 May 2018, at 09:46, Kevin Shaw <kevs@...> wrote:

BMD and resolve can send the HDR flag, but currently only in ultrastudio 4k extreme 3 because it requires HDMI 2.0

The low cost Mini Monitor 4K can also have the HDR metadata flags set by Resolve, without the need for additional external hardware. 

Nick (not Kevin or Steve!) Shaw

Workflow Consultant 
Antler Post
UK

Steve Shaw
 

<quote>Regarding the LG C8 - Steve would know better than I, but yes they are quite easy to calibrate, but they have limitations as has been discussed.</quote>

They can only be calibrated for SDR (not HDR), and only through the use of an external LUT box, and a large profile set (10,000 patch measurements) as they have very non-linear volumetric colour errors.

The following graphs show the SDR volumetric issues in the same way as the previous HDR graphs.
The issues are obvious to see.



Not as 'bad' as when used for HDR, but there are still very obvious volumetric colour issues.
Again, due to the use of the white pixel.
But this time the errors can be corrected with a 3D LUT (via an external LUT box.)

Steve
Light Illusion

Geoff Boyle
 

The cg318 that Eizo shipped to me shear ago was preloaded with those profiles.
They also emailed me some new firmware.

Geoff




On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 11:35 PM -0700, "Kevin Shaw" <kevs@...> wrote:

Hi Joseph
I do mean the CG318-4K. It does not ship with PQ or HLG but these can easily be added as a new preset using their colornavigator software and target profiles provided by Eizo. They supplied me with HLG, PQ300 nits and PQ1000 which simulates clipping at 1000 but of course is flatter, Contact me offline if you would like me to share those with you.

You are correct I would not call it HDR within the terms for mastering or viewing. But these profiles are useful for QC and generally understanding what HDR is about.
My point was that if I am looking for a mastering monitor as the thread ask, I would sooner have the Eizo than the LG or the Panasonic for that matter. You cannot grade HDR on any of them
HDR Mastering monitors all cost around £30k or more for now

The newer  CG319X will ship with HDR EOTF profiles, but afaik it is not yet available

Your analogy with BT2020 is good. Some monitors can accept a PQ signal, but do not meet the full spec. In the case of a TV the differences are managed with metadata, but thee is no place for that in mastering or production for that matter.

Best Kevin (not Steve or Nick - the Shaw thing is really confusing)

Disclaimer: I run ICA classes on HDR, and have received support from Dolby, Eizo and FSI. The next class is in London and will use a 2000 nit Dolby “Maui” display

Best
Kevin

Kevin Shaw, CSI :
colorist, instructor and consultant
t +44 7921. 677  369 
e
 kevs@...

finalcolor: www.finalcolor.com  ICA:          www.icolorist.com      
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On 30 May 2018, at 19:03, Joseph Goldstone <jgoldstone@...> wrote:

On May 30, 2018, at 8:31 AM, Kevin Shaw <kevs@...> wrote:
[…]
For about the same or less than the LG  combo, and still less than the FSI XM65 and Panny TX, you could look at Eizo CG318-4k which supports HLG and PQ, but is only 350 nits, so definitely not a mastering monitor.

Is it possible you meant the recently-announced CG319X here, instead of the CG318-4K?

I have the latter, which did not ship with PQ and HLG support, and there is no firmware update on the EIZO site that could enable it (assuming such a capability could even be added as a firmware upgrade). For me, for R&D work, the CG318-4K is a great monitor, but at 350 nits I would not call it HDR. 

On the other hand, the CG319X is listed on their website as being new, and it does claim to support HLG and PQ. But it’s hard to call this an HDR monitor either; even the UHD Alliance Premium Certification provision for less-bright HDR monitors “not 1000 nits, but really deep blacks” can’t be used to make it HDR either: that path requires 540 nits and an ability to go down to 0.0005 nits. (The more-bright path to UHDA PC requires 1,000 nits but only requires you to go down to 0.05 nits.)

I think we’ll see monitors casually mentioning their HDR-ness much as we saw monitors casually mentioning their Rec2020-ness, when what was really happening with the latter was that the monitor would accept a Rec2020-encoded signal, not that the monitor could accurately display all valid Rec2020-encoded values.

Best—
—joseph

Image Science Engineer
ARRI, Inc. SBD (Burbank) / ARRI Cine Technik IS (München)







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Kevin Shaw
 

Quote: Hi Nick, instead of the AJA Hi5 4k plus, are there any similarly priced options from BlackMagic?

Hi George 
that was me, Kevin, not Nick :-) Sorry for the Shaw confusions

There are no similar boxes from BMD, but these still work with Resolve. The AJA hi5 is an SDI to HDMI convertor, so you output your BMD card into the AJA and all is good

The other device I know of is the HDFury, which is cheaper and a bit more fiddly. The HDFury is an HDMI splitter and again that can be fed from a BMD card for resolve support

BMD and resolve can send the HDR flag, but currently only in ultrastudio 4k extreme 3 because it requires HDMI 2.0

Regarding the LG C8 - Steve would know better than I, but yes they are quite easy to calibrate, but they have limitations as has been discussed.

Kevin Shaw, CSI :
colorist, instructor and consultant
t +44 7921. 677  369 
e
 kevs@...

finalcolor: www.finalcolor.com  ICA:          www.icolorist.com      
twitter:      www.twitter.com/kevscolor    linkedIn:    www.linkedin.com/in/kevscolor
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Kevin Shaw
 

Hi Joseph
I do mean the CG318-4K. It does not ship with PQ or HLG but these can easily be added as a new preset using their colornavigator software and target profiles provided by Eizo. They supplied me with HLG, PQ300 nits and PQ1000 which simulates clipping at 1000 but of course is flatter, Contact me offline if you would like me to share those with you.

You are correct I would not call it HDR within the terms for mastering or viewing. But these profiles are useful for QC and generally understanding what HDR is about.
My point was that if I am looking for a mastering monitor as the thread ask, I would sooner have the Eizo than the LG or the Panasonic for that matter. You cannot grade HDR on any of them
HDR Mastering monitors all cost around £30k or more for now

The newer  CG319X will ship with HDR EOTF profiles, but afaik it is not yet available

Your analogy with BT2020 is good. Some monitors can accept a PQ signal, but do not meet the full spec. In the case of a TV the differences are managed with metadata, but thee is no place for that in mastering or production for that matter.

Best Kevin (not Steve or Nick - the Shaw thing is really confusing)

Disclaimer: I run ICA classes on HDR, and have received support from Dolby, Eizo and FSI. The next class is in London and will use a 2000 nit Dolby “Maui” display

Best
Kevin

Kevin Shaw, CSI :
colorist, instructor and consultant
t +44 7921. 677  369 
e
 kevs@...

finalcolor: www.finalcolor.com  ICA:          www.icolorist.com      
twitter:      www.twitter.com/kevscolor    linkedIn:    www.linkedin.com/in/kevscolor
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On 30 May 2018, at 19:03, Joseph Goldstone <jgoldstone@...> wrote:

On May 30, 2018, at 8:31 AM, Kevin Shaw <kevs@...> wrote:
[…]
For about the same or less than the LG  combo, and still less than the FSI XM65 and Panny TX, you could look at Eizo CG318-4k which supports HLG and PQ, but is only 350 nits, so definitely not a mastering monitor.

Is it possible you meant the recently-announced CG319X here, instead of the CG318-4K?

I have the latter, which did not ship with PQ and HLG support, and there is no firmware update on the EIZO site that could enable it (assuming such a capability could even be added as a firmware upgrade). For me, for R&D work, the CG318-4K is a great monitor, but at 350 nits I would not call it HDR. 

On the other hand, the CG319X is listed on their website as being new, and it does claim to support HLG and PQ. But it’s hard to call this an HDR monitor either; even the UHD Alliance Premium Certification provision for less-bright HDR monitors “not 1000 nits, but really deep blacks” can’t be used to make it HDR either: that path requires 540 nits and an ability to go down to 0.0005 nits. (The more-bright path to UHDA PC requires 1,000 nits but only requires you to go down to 0.05 nits.)

I think we’ll see monitors casually mentioning their HDR-ness much as we saw monitors casually mentioning their Rec2020-ness, when what was really happening with the latter was that the monitor would accept a Rec2020-encoded signal, not that the monitor could accurately display all valid Rec2020-encoded values.

Best—
—joseph

Image Science Engineer
ARRI, Inc. SBD (Burbank) / ARRI Cine Technik IS (München)







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Video Assist Hungary
 

I ended up putting that data in a small Google Spreadsheet. Here is the link. Anyone can edit, so please feel free to add/edit information.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uq-MqtTfP-ixS_D0oPPEMn2nKMpk9YeyzFm1QH0DhEY/edit?usp=sharing

-----------------------------

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0-24 central phone: +36 70 626 2354
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Video Assist Hungary
 

So can someone help me clear up the confusion?

Sony BVM-X300 V2: RGB OLED (1000 cd/m2)
Sony PVM-X550: WOLED (400 cd/m2 ?)
FSI XM-310K: RGB LCD (2000 cd/m2)
FSI XM650U: WOLED (900 cd/m2)
Eizo CG-319X: RGB LCD (350 cd/m2?)
Eizo CG3145: RGB LCD (1000 cd/m2)
Panasonic TX-65EZ952B: WOLED (900 cd/m2?)
LG 65C8: WOLED (900 cd/m2?)

I was told on NAB at the FSI booth that 'their' LG panel is newer than the one in the X550, which has worse quality. But I believe both are WOLED? That would explain the difference in peak brightness


-----------------------------

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0-24 central phone: +36 70 626 2354

Video Assist Hungary - Technology for your vision IMDb IMDbPro
The only video rental place in Hungary!

Steve Shaw
 

<quote>...instead of the AJA Hi5 4k plus, are there any similarly priced options from BlackMagic that do the same thing? (HDR flag capable etc). Just to integrate better with Resolve. 

And are these LG OLED C8 monitors relatively easy to calibrate?</quote>

The HDfury devices can trigger HDR...
But you cannot grade on any home HDR TV as they all have in-built roll-off/tone mapping.
(Ignoring the issues previously defined above.)
Any mastering HDR display must clip at its peak luma value.

It is impossible to grade on a display with roll-off/tone mapping, as you will have no idea where you are actually setting the highlight grade.
This makes home HDR TVs totally unsuitable for any professional application.

Steve
Light Illusion

Steve Shaw
 

I actually like the way FSI define their range of 'HDR' displays.

Monitoring HDR 
Designed for production and quality control applications. Useful as a cost-effective HDR pre-visualization tool. Monitors with HDR Preview will have more limited peak luminance and/or contrast ratio capabilities than HDR Monitoring or HDR Mastering displays. There are three HDR Preview modes: HLG, PQ with hard clip near monitor peak luminance, or PQ with a soft roll of highlights.
 
Preview HDR 
Suitable for viewing HDR content in applications that do not require all primary mastering monitor qualifications.
 
Mastering HDR 
Designed specifically for HDR content creation and review. Displays in this category meet key performance benchmarks for mastering the majority of HDR deliverables.

You need to define where your needs sit, and which displays fits into what category.
For example, we are working on a new HDR display from Konvision - 650 nits peak.
Similar to the eizo CG319X in application?
(We are still working on the display's development, as it's not yet openly available, so time will tell...)

Steve
Light Illusion

George
 

"The LG OLED 65C8 needs a  LUT box and HDR flag capable input device such as AJA Hi5 4k plus to do what these monitors do (they are all white OLED) but I am not saying it is in the same ball park, just it is an option. "

Hi Nick, instead of the AJA Hi5 4k plus, are there any similarly priced options from BlackMagic that do the same thing? (HDR flag capable etc). Just to integrate better with Resolve.

And are these LG OLED C8 monitors relatively easy to calibrate?
Thank you Nick!! Mike

Steve Shaw
 
Edited

Just so every one really has the correct information...

The Panasonic TX-65EZ952B uses the LG WOLED screen, as does every large format 'OLED' out there.
The graphs I posted are actually FROM the Panasonic TV.

All WOLEDs suffer exactly the same issues - and more, when you start looking at thermal instability too.

It is simple colour science fact that using a 'white' pixel will compromise volumetric colour capability, as the RGB pixels will always run out of range (brightness) before the white pixel.

The truth is WOLEDs work ok up to about 100-200 nits, where the white pixel has no effect/benefit, and may as well not be there.
Above that range, the white pixel causes huge volumetric issues, as can be seen in the graphs I posted, so may as well not be there...

WOLED is a home TV technology simply to make 'bright' pictures.
It has no place in the professional world.
(And I would never have one at home either...)

Steve
Light Illusion

Joseph Goldstone
 

On May 30, 2018, at 8:31 AM, Kevin Shaw <kevs@...> wrote:
[…]
For about the same or less than the LG  combo, and still less than the FSI XM65 and Panny TX, you could look at Eizo CG318-4k which supports HLG and PQ, but is only 350 nits, so definitely not a mastering monitor.

Is it possible you meant the recently-announced CG319X here, instead of the CG318-4K?

I have the latter, which did not ship with PQ and HLG support, and there is no firmware update on the EIZO site that could enable it (assuming such a capability could even be added as a firmware upgrade). For me, for R&D work, the CG318-4K is a great monitor, but at 350 nits I would not call it HDR. 

On the other hand, the CG319X is listed on their website as being new, and it does claim to support HLG and PQ. But it’s hard to call this an HDR monitor either; even the UHD Alliance Premium Certification provision for less-bright HDR monitors “not 1000 nits, but really deep blacks” can’t be used to make it HDR either: that path requires 540 nits and an ability to go down to 0.0005 nits. (The more-bright path to UHDA PC requires 1,000 nits but only requires you to go down to 0.05 nits.)

I think we’ll see monitors casually mentioning their HDR-ness much as we saw monitors casually mentioning their Rec2020-ness, when what was really happening with the latter was that the monitor would accept a Rec2020-encoded signal, not that the monitor could accurately display all valid Rec2020-encoded values.

Best—
—joseph

Image Science Engineer
ARRI, Inc. SBD (Burbank) / ARRI Cine Technik IS (München)







This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet.




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Kevin Shaw
 

I’ll summarise my experience with HDR screens

AFAIK Dolby approve monitors for Dolby Vision rather than certify them as such. 
The Sony x300, and Eizo CG3145 are both approved for Dolby Vision mastering. 
They are quite different technologies as has been pointed out, but both rated at 1000 nits though the Eizo has no dimming. Of the two, my preference is the Eizo which is easier to use and better  to calibrate (I have calibrated both). The Sony is definitely not calibrated out of the box - typically the white point color temperature is too high and the blacks a bit low. 

Dolby Monitors are not available to buy (but very nice to work on)

The FSI xm310k is stunning and much better than either of the above (at least twice as bright), but not yet shipping and quite a bit more expensive

The FSI XM65OU is a very nice monitor but because of its WOLEDs is not approved for Dolby Vision, and I accept Steve's comments on using it for HDR mastering. I would recommend it over the Panasonic TX-65EZ952B but it is more expensive. The FSI xm65OU, and Panasonic TX-65EZ952B are really better as QC monitors rather than critical mastering. 

The LG OLED 65C8 needs a  LUT box and HDR flag capable input device such as AJA Hi5 4k plus to do what these monitors do (they are all white OLED) but I am not saying it is in the same ball park, just it is an option. 

For about the same or less than the LG  combo, and still less than the FSI XM65 and Panny TX, you could look at Eizo CG318-4k which supports HLG and PQ, but is only 350 nits, so definitely not a mastering monitor.

For the record I agree with Phil's blog, but it is only fair to point out that he works for a company that sells Eizo. 

Bottom line, it is expensive to get into HDR mastering, and no one knows how long it will be before the prices tumble.
Postium showed a very nice 31” 4k 1000 nit display at NAB, but it cost the same as the FSI xm310k, making the FSI desirable and great value!
Canon, Atomos and Boland also come up in conversation and they have their uses, but in my mind they are better on set than in the grade. Just my opinion, don’t hate me for that.

My 2 cents anyway
Kevin

Kevin Shaw, CSI :
colorist, instructor and consultant
t +44 7921. 677  369 
e
 kevs@...

finalcolor: www.finalcolor.com  ICA:          www.icolorist.com      
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On 30 May 2018, at 14:00, Dado Valentic <dado@...> wrote:

Also the only screens that can be used for Dolby mastering are those made by Dolby.

Riza Pacalioglu
 

Panasonic screen I am referring to is using WRGB (LGD) OLED panels and does not have problems described in the previous post.”

 

Steve’s post has the caption ‘WRGB’ on the test image, hence showing errors of the type of panel Panasonic uses. Have you missed that or do you disagree with Steve? If the latter maybe you can explain more.

 

Thank you.

 

 

Riza Pacalioglu B.Sc. M.Sc. M.A.

Producer

South of England

 

 

Dado Valentic
 

This blog post is making false claims.
The image on this post is coming from Spectracal calibration report and is not Netflix certificate. Netflix does not certificate screens.
Also the only screens that can be used for Dolby mastering are those made by Dolby.

Dado Valentic
colour scientist
London/LA


The blog post also has interesting things to say about the X300 that's relevant to this thread.

- patrick​

_

Dado Valentic
 

Just to get facts straight. Panasonic screen I am referring to is using WRGB (LGD) OLED panels and does not have problems described in the previous post.



The Panasonic issues (and any other WOLED display) are obvious.


Steve Shaw
 

To add some factual data to the 'Panasonic' display issues, this is a direct comparison on the Panasonic compared to an 'ok' LCD HDR display, both profiled in HDR mode, but with a power law gamma, to minimise any EOFT issues (roll-off for example), with the profile matched to itself.
(Adding the EOTF into the mix would further kill the Panasonic accuracy.)

The 'white lines' are tangent lines showing the display accuracy errors.
(The coloured point, which is also colour coded to show the level of accuracy, shows the actual measurement, while the other end of the tangent line shows where the colour point should be.)
A 'perfect' display would show zero errors when tested like this.

The Panasonic issues (and any other WOLED display) are obvious.



The errors cannot be 'corrected in any way, as the display just can't make the required colours.
(Calibration can only subtract from what a display can natively do, not add to it.)

Steve
Light Illusion

Patrick Inhofer
 

The Eizo Prominance CG3145 is certified for HDR mastering, and suffers none of the issue the Sony X300 has,


“Certified” by whom?

​According to this blog post, certified by Dolby and Netflix:


The blog post also has interesting things to say about the X300 that's relevant to this thread.

- patrick​

Jacques Mersereau
 

I have received some more info to update what we know on the Sony BVM X300

<<ASP (street) price is $34K. this monitor has RGB oled not White OLED that will the competitors who do have OLED.  

There is a big and expensive difference in the production of these monitor.  

It takes two-three days just to QC one monitor before it gets the seal of approval on it.>> 


 



On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 1:21 PM, Michael Most <mdmost@...> wrote:


On May 28, 2018, at 12:37 AM, Steve Shaw <steve@...> wrote:

The Eizo Prominance CG3145 is certified for HDR mastering, and suffers none of the issue the Sony X300 has,



“Certified” by whom?

Mike Most
On Location Services Director
Technicolor
Los Angeles, CA.




--
^^^^^^^^^^^^

Jacques Mersereau
The Duderstadt Center 
University of Michigan
Video Studio Managing Producer
2281 Bonisteel Blvd.
Ann Arbor, MI  48109
< jacmer@...>
734 647 6336

Dado Valentic
 

From professional perspective every grading studio is using  only OLED HDR and it is nice that we have standardised and that we all use the same monitor and that is  Sony BVM X300. There is no industry body that approves monitors for grading it just the fact that this monitor stands out.
We love the fact that it comes calibrated out of the box. In 2018 this is the least one should expect. When we need it to be checked Sony takes care of it. I don't change oil in my car myself and I don't know why should I calibrate my monitor myself - so totally support Sony's decision not to allow any 3rd part to access internal calibration.

However, we needed something bigger and something that perfectly matches X300 and this is exactly what I was working with Panasonic to achieve. To take a consumer screen to the next level.

It is great to see that in small pro circles this monitor has astablished itself already.

Here is why Stephan Nakamura uses Panasonic OLED HDR.



It could be something that you are looking for. Not expensive but at pro performance level.


Dado Valentic
Colour Scientist
London/LA

Michael Most
 



On May 28, 2018, at 12:37 AM, Steve Shaw <steve@...> wrote:

The Eizo Prominance CG3145 is certified for HDR mastering, and suffers none of the issue the Sony X300 has,



“Certified” by whom?

Mike Most
On Location Services Director
Technicolor
Los Angeles, CA.

alister@...
 

We've been doing so many display/TV evaluations lately it can be rather difficult to keep track without referring to notes.
(I will make sure I refer to them next time!)

I spent ages trying to get figure out why I couldn’t find the HDR transfer curves on an X300 very recently - a PVM-X300 which is the SDR LCD model.

As current consumer TV’s also run into average peak power issues I find the ABL warning light on the BVM-X300 quite a handy reminder that I’m going too far with my average brightness.

Alister Chapman

DoP - Stereographer
UK Mobile +44 7711 152226
US Mobile +1(216)298-1977


www.xdcam-user.com    1.5 million hits, 100,000 visits from over 45,000 unique visitors every month!  Film and Video production techniques, reviews and news.

Steve Shaw
 

You are correct - it has ABL/Power saving issues, not haloing.
My bad!
It is other LCD displays (mainly home TVs) that have limited backlight zones.
We've been doing so many display/TV evaluations lately it can be rather difficult to keep track without referring to notes.
(I will make sure I refer to them next time!)

Steve

alister@...
 

On 28 May 2018, at 08:37, Steve Shaw <steve@...> wrote:

The Eizo Prominance CG3145 is certified for HDR mastering, and suffers none of the issue the Sony X300 has, as it has a 'backlight per pixel'.
The Sony has limited backlight zones, so suffers haloing, as well as ABL/ASBL type issues.


Correct me if  am wrong, but the BVM-X300 is OLED so doesn’t have a backlight as every pixel is it’s own lightsource and as a result doesn’t suffer from limited backlight zones etc. Perhaps your confusing it with the PVM-X300 which is an SDR LCD monitor.


Alister Chapman

DoP - Stereographer
UK Mobile +44 7711 152226
US Mobile +1(216)298-1977


www.xdcam-user.com    1.5 million hits, 100,000 visits from over 45,000 unique visitors every month!  Film and Video production techniques, reviews and news.



Steve Shaw
 
Edited

The Eizo Prominance CG3145 is certified for HDR mastering, and suffers none of the issue the Sony X300 has, as it has a 'backlight per pixel'.
The Sony suffers ABL/ASBL type power saving issues.
With a backlight per pixel, such issues just do not exist with LCD displays.

The new Flanders Scientific XM310K has the same backlight technology, but will also have professional SDI connections, etc.

We are also assisting Konvision with a new HDR display, which can do 650+ nits.
We have one in our office, but it's not yet openly available, but shows there are new options on the way.

Steve
Light Illusion

Geoff Boyle
 

I think that this is as good as you’re going to get in your price range.

 

http://www.eizoglobal.com/products/coloredge/cg318-4k/index.html

 

It only gets to 350 nit but in reality that’s what home TV’s are showing.

 

It’s what is used for the CML evaluations, yes I’d love a FSI or a Dolby or a Sony X300 but reality bites 😊

 

The CX3145 looks pretty good but that’s in the price range we can’t contemplate.

 

 

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Netherlands

www.gboyle.co.uk

 

From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> On Behalf Of George via Cml.News
Sent: 27 May 2018 18:59
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@...
Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] HDR mastering monitorsing dering for a buy this year, or

 

Any lower end priced HDR professional grading monitors?

 

Around or under $3,000-$5,000?

 

Mike

Jacques Mersereau
 

<<Any lower end priced HDR professional grading monitors?
Around or under $3,000-$5,000>>

I attended NAB 2018 - and from what I was told and shown there, for a "professional grading" 4K HDR monitor you are looking to add a zero to those prices you posted.
Sure, much depends on size and features, but . . .
Please someone correct me if I have this wrong, but the Sony BVM is the top dog and costs around $50K. 
A lessor version - a 'reference' monitor is I believe around $30K.
The Canon series starts at like $17 and goes past $25K.  
We are looking at a Flanders-Scientific - which I would NOT characterize as a grading quality display = $13-$17K,
though on its website, Flanders has one at $45K as the 'anticipated' price. I would hope it is grading quality.

For your price range look to Atomos Sumo so you can at least get something that can show you the HDR image, 
but I do not think it attains anywhere near the level of 'professional grading.'

HTH and as always, I could be wrong ;-)




^^^^^^^^^^^^

Jacques Mersereau
The Duderstadt Center 
University of Michigan
Video Studio Managing Producer
2281 Bonisteel Blvd.
Ann Arbor, MI  48109
< jacmer@...>

Ido Karilla
 

Flanders scientific has some nice solutions as well. 


On 27 May 2018, at 22:25, Michael Most <mdmost@...> wrote:

On May 27, 2018, at 9:58 AM, George via Cml.News <medavoym=yahoo.com@...> wrote:

Any lower end priced HDR professional grading monitors?

Around or under $3,000-$5,000?

No. In fact, the only “HDR professional grading monitors” that currently exist that I know of are the Sony X300 and the Dolby Pulsar. That said, HDR is in its infancy. If you want a monitor in that price range that can display what we’re currently calling “HDR”, you are looking at consumer monitors, like the LG OLEDs.

Mike Most
On Location Services Director
Technicolor 
Los Angeles, CA.

Michael Most
 

On May 27, 2018, at 9:58 AM, George via Cml.News <medavoym=yahoo.com@...> wrote:

Any lower end priced HDR professional grading monitors?

Around or under $3,000-$5,000?

No. In fact, the only “HDR professional grading monitors” that currently exist that I know of are the Sony X300 and the Dolby Pulsar. That said, HDR is in its infancy. If you want a monitor in that price range that can display what we’re currently calling “HDR”, you are looking at consumer monitors, like the LG OLEDs.

Mike Most
On Location Services Director
Technicolor 
Los Angeles, CA.

George
 

Any lower end priced HDR professional grading monitors?

Around or under $3,000-$5,000?

Mike

Sebastian Plamadeala
 

Very enlightening Steve, thank you.

Eizo seems a very interesting choice, as well as the FSI. Din not know about the lut box needed for the Sony. 

I see that Eizo does not have an SDI input, so i believe one would need something as an SDI to HDMI conversion, like AJA Hi5-4K-Plus or  similar to get the HDR metadata into the display. Wondering how the Dolby Vision dynamic metadata would be translated to that hdmi input. If one would put an Omnitek Ultra XR or Aja/Colorfront HDR Analyser into the chain, would the signal quality hold up?

Thank you!

On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 11:03 AM, Steve Shaw <steve@...> wrote:
The Panasonic uses the LG WOLED screen, and cannot accurately do any form of HDR - regardless what the marketing hype says.

See: https://www.lightillusion.com/error.html#hdr_volume
(You may need to click on the 'HDR Volumetric Accuracy' button, depending on your browser.)

And also see: https://www.lightillusion.com/forums/index.php?action=vthread&forum=8&topic=485#msg2882

There is no way such displays should ever be attempted to be used for HDR, and even SDR is suspect...

And the Eizo is a new model that uses a 'per-pixel' backlight, and is not at all like their other models.
As fro FSI, their displays do not need a any more calibration, or re-calibration, compared to any other displays.

As it happens Sony displays cannot be user re-calibrated, as Sony do not allow user access to anything more that the grey scale.
All our customers with Sony display use external LUT boxes to enable accurate calibration.
(Sony factory calibration tends to favour 'orange'.)

The Boland also has no 3D LUT calibration internally (just 1D LUT and 3x3 matrix), so again requires an external LUT.
(We have spoken with Boland, as they are looking to add 3D LUT capability.)

Steve
Light Illusion

Steve Shaw
 

The Panasonic uses the LG WOLED screen, and cannot accurately do any form of HDR - regardless what the marketing hype says.

See: https://www.lightillusion.com/error.html#hdr_volume
(You may need to click on the 'HDR Volumetric Accuracy' button, depending on your browser.)

And also see: https://www.lightillusion.com/forums/index.php?action=vthread&forum=8&topic=485#msg2882

There is no way such displays should ever be attempted to be used for HDR, and even SDR is suspect...

And the Eizo is a new model that uses a 'per-pixel' backlight, and is not at all like their other models.
As fro FSI, their displays do not need a any more calibration, or re-calibration, compared to any other displays.

As it happens Sony displays cannot be user re-calibrated, as Sony do not allow user access to anything more that the grey scale.
All our customers with Sony display use external LUT boxes to enable accurate calibration.
(Sony factory calibration tends to favour 'orange'.)

The Boland also has no 3D LUT calibration internally (just 1D LUT and 3x3 matrix), so again requires an external LUT.
(We have spoken with Boland, as they are looking to add 3D LUT capability.)

Steve
Light Illusion

Bob Kertesz
 

The Panasonic OLED now supports HLG and HDR10, according to the current specs, but not DolbyVision HDR.

-Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California

DIT, Video Controller, and live compositor extraordinaire.

High quality images for more than four decades - whether you've wanted them or not.©

* * * * * * * * * *

On 5/23/2018 9:44 AM, Bob Kertesz wrote:
When I last looked at the Panasonic OLED about a year ago, it did not support any form of HDR.

Has that changed?

-Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California

DIT, Video Controller, and live compositor extraordinaire.

High quality images for more than four decades - whether you've wanted them or not.©

* * * * * * * * * *

On 5/23/2018 4:07 AM, Dado Valentic wrote:
There is a 65'' 4K HDR OLED screen by Panasonic with model number TX-65EZ952B that you will find inside every major color grading suite in LA. We all have Sony BVM X-300 and keep it as it is the reference and as it really keeps its value but a monitor we all look at is the Panasonic.

Disclosure: I have been working with Panasonic on the development of this screen and they are using my work on their promotional materials

Dado Valentic
Colour Scientist
London/LA


fmaurin.us
 

Why is this Pana TV only available in EU and CA?

François Maurin
Editor
Los Angeles, CA

Bob Kertesz
 

When I last looked at the Panasonic OLED about a year ago, it did not support any form of HDR.

Has that changed?

-Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California

DIT, Video Controller, and live compositor extraordinaire.

High quality images for more than four decades - whether you've wanted them or not.©

* * * * * * * * * *

On 5/23/2018 4:07 AM, Dado Valentic wrote:
There is a 65'' 4K HDR OLED screen by Panasonic with model number TX-65EZ952B that you will find inside every major color grading suite in LA. We all have Sony BVM X-300 and keep it as it is the reference and as it really keeps its value but a monitor we all look at is the Panasonic.

Disclosure: I have been working with Panasonic on the development of this screen and they are using my work on their promotional materials

Dado Valentic
Colour Scientist
London/LA

Ted Langdell
 

Also at NAB:
Boland 4K55QD-HDR : 55″ 4K Pro HDR


I hope this is helpful. 

Disclosure: I'm an authorized Boland reseller.  

Ted

Ted Langdell
flashscan8.us  Moving Image Tools and Technology

On May 22, 2018, at 11:35 AM, tipul01@... wrote:

hello,

i have been trying to keep up to date with hdr monitoring  for mastering/grading.

seeing how the bvm x300 is three years old already, im thinking in terms of new aquisitions if its wise for considering a buy this year, or should i wait for new apparitions. 

Seeinng how nab showd off tvlogic and flanders, these brands are not so the "go-to" standard for HDR mastering monitors.

any thoughts?

thank you,
sebastian

Dado Valentic
 

There is a 65'' 4K HDR OLED screen by Panasonic with model number TX-65EZ952B that you will find inside every major color grading suite in LA. We all have Sony BVM X-300 and keep it as it is the reference and as it really keeps its value but a monitor we all look at is the Panasonic.

Disclosure: I have been working with Panasonic on the development of this screen and they are using my work on their promotional materials

Dado Valentic
Colour Scientist
London/LA