Topics

Camera evaluations and lights

Mitch Gross
 

On May 25, 2018, at 2:23 AM, Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote:

If Resolve cannot handle ProRes RAW by then I have Compressor and I’ll convert at the highest possible rate.

As Colin noted, if things still are as they are now, you’ll need a Mac running FCPX along with Compressor to do that. That’s why I pointed this out. 


Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager 
Panasonic Systems Solutions Company of North America
New York


Geoff Boyle
 

Post workflow is an interesting one 😊

 

I’ll be mainly using Resolve for this, as well as manufacturers software to create EXR’s in ACES space.

 

I’m pretty confident that by late July I’ll not have a problem using Resolve!

 

The complete workflow is…

 

Original camera material via Shotput Pro on a MBP to 2 * SSD.

The SSD’s will later be copied to spinning disk again 2 copies.

The rushes will then be converted to EXR’s in manufacturers software.

I will do analysis in PreLight and Resolve of both the OCN and the EXR’s

I will then use Resolve and the OCN to produce QT’s for the web.

 

I could use the EXR’s but I prefer to use a workflow that the majority of people will use.

 

If Resolve cannot handle ProRes RAW by then I have Compressor and I’ll convert at the highest possible rate.

 

I have a new Dell system with enough grunt not to worry about multiple 4K & 6K rushes. This was bought solely for CML testing.

 

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Netherlands

www.gboyle.co.uk

 

 

 

From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> On Behalf Of Mitch Gross
Sent: 24 May 2018 21:10
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@...
Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] Camera evaluations and lights

 

I don’t think the point of such testing is to bring comfort or discomfort to people who currently so happen to own a particular camera.

Geoff, since you’re planning to use ProRes RAW for several cameras (a smart move for leveling that playing field even more), I think it would be helpful to break down your planned post workflow beforehand. Currently ProRes RAW is only supported in Apple programs such as FCPX and Compressor. How will this affect your post workflow compared to say the Venice or the VariCam Pure?

Not a dig at all, just something I expect needs some thinking out well beforehand.


Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager
Panasonic Systems Solutions Company of North America
New York

Colin Elves
 

Last time I checked Compressor doesn’t support ProRes Raw - unless you pass it through FCPX first.

ie you have to open up FCPX, select a PRR clip. Set the debayer (or Raw to log conversion as they call it), set the Camera LUT (‘none’ keeps it in log), then select share to Compressor. 

Then you need to wait for Compressor to Open up and set up the project. 

Then you can go back to FCPX to go through the same thing with the next file (again, last time I checked, there was no way to send multiple files to Compressor at once - except to add them all to a timeline).

Unless Apple have recently updated Compressor to allow PRR to be accepted directly (god I hope so!)

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
London/Berlin




On 24 May 2018, at 21:10, Mitch Gross <mitchgrosscml@...> wrote:

Currently ProRes RAW is only supported in Apple programs such as FCPX and Compressor. How will this affect your post workflow compared to say the Venice or the VariCam Pure?

Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager
Panasonic Systems Solutions Company of North America
New York

Teodor
 

I once saw a guy do a review of the varicam LT where he filmed a lot fooliage and compaired it to the fs7. And it became obvious the difference in the amount of nouances that the Lt sensor could discerne, where you quite obviously could se more differences in the leaves while they were more alike on the fs7. I interpreted this as testing the purity of the bayerfilter. How little the manufacturers let rgb color bleed into each other to boost the sensitivity ( something demonstranted by reds changeable filters) i don’t know what the studio equivalent of this would be but I think it is one of the key factors in delivering a nuanced picture so it would be nice if you could ad an element testing this. 

Best regards
Teodor Miljevic, colorist

Skickat från min iPhone

25 maj 2018 kl. 01:19 skrev Julio Gómez <info@...>:

A Julio Gómez le gusta tu correo electrónico

Julio Gómez
 

A Julio Gómez le gusta tu correo electrónico

Robert A. Ober
 

On 5/24/18 16:54, Mitch Gross wrote:
On May 24, 2018, at 4:49 PM, Robert A. Ober <robob@...> wrote:

I am under the impression the FS5 is not the same sensor as the FS7/F5. 

A camera’s depends on so much more than just the sensor, even when outputting RAW. I don’t have anything specific to share on this example, just noting the concept itself is flawed. Just sayin’.
_____________________________________________

My statement doesn't dispute that.  I provided no reference to any concept.

Robert A. Ober
IT Consultant, Vidcaster, & Freelancer
www.infohou.com
Houston, TX



-- 
Folks, 
Please be aware that I am not always watching email so text me
or go old school and call me at 281-772-3596 if you need help within a few hours.

Mitch Gross
 

On May 24, 2018, at 4:23 PM, Jessica Gallant <jessicajgallant@...> wrote:

I own a Sony FS5 and think that most people who own one bought it with the intention of shooting 
RAW on an external recorder.

While I’m sure than many did, I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say that the majority of the owners of these cameras use or ever intended to use them with a RAW recorder. 


Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager 
Panasonic Systems Solutions Company of North America
New York


Mitch Gross
 

On May 24, 2018, at 4:49 PM, Robert A. Ober <robob@...> wrote:

I am under the impression the FS5 is not the same sensor as the FS7/F5. 

A camera’s depends on so much more than just the sensor, even when outputting RAW. I don’t have anything specific to share on this example, just noting the concept itself is flawed. Just sayin’. 

(From a guy repping three cameras that celebrate their matching sensors and A/D converters and color science and a whole bunch more.)


Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager 
Panasonic Systems Solutions Company of North America
New York


Jonathon Sendall
 

Aplogies, I meant the difference on the boards between FS7 and F5, not FS5.

Jonathon Sendall
DP, London

Jonathon Sendall
 

Sony keep certain things close to their chest. Who knew that the F5 could shoot 4K until the hack? Also I hear that the boards between FS5 and FS7 interpret footage differently. Is that a deliberate hold back. Possibly but they are close. Still would like to see the F5 in 16bit raw hold up against others above its weight.

Jonathon Sendall
DP, London

On Thu, 24 May 2018 at 21:49, Robert A. Ober <robob@...> wrote:
On 5/24/18 15:17, Leonard Levy wrote:
On May 24, 2018, at 11:26 AM, Colin Elves <colin@...> wrote:
It’s the same sensor as the FS7 and the same 12bit linear raw now, no? (same sensor as the F5 in fact, except that records 16bit linear). 
So if Geoff is recording externally (Raw I’m assuming) it’d basically be the same result.

Ah Good point about the sensors. As I recall there was something about the way  12 bit Raw is executed on the FS5 that was actually improved over the FS7 but I don’t recall what it was. Maybe I’m wrong and in any case I think it would only  affect the noise floor. 

_________________________________

I am under the impression the FS5 is not the same sensor as the FS7/F5.  Anybody have any documentation that would clear up the issue?

Robert A. Ober 
IT Consultant, Vidcaster, & Freelancer 
www.infohou.com 
Houston, TX

Robert A. Ober
 

On 5/24/18 15:17, Leonard Levy wrote:
On May 24, 2018, at 11:26 AM, Colin Elves <colin@...> wrote:
It’s the same sensor as the FS7 and the same 12bit linear raw now, no? (same sensor as the F5 in fact, except that records 16bit linear). 
So if Geoff is recording externally (Raw I’m assuming) it’d basically be the same result.

Ah Good point about the sensors. As I recall there was something about the way  12 bit Raw is executed on the FS5 that was actually improved over the FS7 but I don’t recall what it was. Maybe I’m wrong and in any case I think it would only  affect the noise floor. 

_________________________________

I am under the impression the FS5 is not the same sensor as the FS7/F5.  Anybody have any documentation that would clear up the issue?

Robert A. Ober 
IT Consultant, Vidcaster, & Freelancer 
www.infohou.com 
Houston, TX

Jessica Gallant
 

I own a Sony FS5 and think that most people who own one bought it with the intention of shooting
RAW on an external recorder. If you’re only planning on shooting internally, then the FS7 would make
more sense (unless you need the 10 hr. internal recording time in HD and 5 hr. internal recording time
in UHD by using 256GB SDXC cards).

Jessica Gallant
Director of Photography | Los Angeles | CA
http://jessicajgallant.com
http://wb.imdb.com/name/nm0002680/
cell: 818-645-2787
email: jessicajgallant@...
Skype: jessicajgallant



On May 24, 2018, at 11:46 AM, Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote:

ProRes RAW is the intention.

Leonard Levy
 

On May 24, 2018, at 11:26 AM, Colin Elves <colin@...> wrote:
It’s the same sensor as the FS7 and the same 12bit linear raw now, no? (same sensor as the F5 in fact, except that records 16bit linear). 
So if Geoff is recording externally (Raw I’m assuming) it’d basically be the same result.

Ah Good point about the sensors. As I recall there was something about the way  12 bit Raw is executed on the FS5 that was actually improved over the FS7 but I don’t recall what it was. Maybe I’m wrong and in any case I think it would only  affect the noise floor. 

BTW - I doubt Geoff has some kind of nefarious grudge against the FS7. His explanation makes perfect sense to me. Doing tests is a gigantic PITA and I’m quite thankful someone else is eager to do them and share the results. 

Leonard Levy, DP
San Rafael, CA

Mitch Gross
 

I don’t think the point of such testing is to bring comfort or discomfort to people who currently so happen to own a particular camera.

Geoff, since you’re planning to use ProRes RAW for several cameras (a smart move for leveling that playing field even more), I think it would be helpful to break down your planned post workflow beforehand. Currently ProRes RAW is only supported in Apple programs such as FCPX and Compressor. How will this affect your post workflow compared to say the Venice or the VariCam Pure?

Not a dig at all, just something I expect needs some thinking out well beforehand.


Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager
Panasonic Systems Solutions Company of North America
New York

Geoff Boyle
 

ProRes RAW is the intention.

cheers

Geoff Boyle NSC
cinematographer
travelling


From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> on behalf of Colin Elves <colin@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2018 8:26:34 PM
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@...
Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] Camera evaluations and lights
 
It’s the same sensor as the FS7 and the same 12bit linear raw now, no? (same sensor as the F5 in fact, except that records 16bit linear). 

So if Geoff is recording externally (Raw I’m assuming) it’d basically be the same result.

If you want to get into a discussion about the relative benefits of XAVC and the FS7s internal noise reduction, well... that’s something else.

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
London/Berlin


On 24 May 2018, at 20:05, Leonard Levy <nsll@...> wrote:

Well I tried, thanks for listening. 
I will wager however that regardless of what Sony is pushing, cml has a lot of FS7 users and not many on the FS5.
Full disclosure though: I am an FS7 owner with a vested interest :-)

Leonard Levy, DP
San Rafael, CA

Jesse Harris
 

I would like to second Leonard’s request - also with a vested interest as an FS7MKI owner.

Thank you for your consideration - and much gratitude for taking time and grief to make these tests for us!



Jesse David Harris

Cinematographer/Editor
NYC




On May 24, 2018, at 2:05 PM, Leonard Levy <nsll@...> wrote:

Well I tried, thanks for listening. 
I will wager however that regardless of what Sony is pushing, cml has a lot of FS7 users and not many on the FS5.
Full disclosure though: I am an FS7 owner with a vested interest :-)

Leonard Levy, DP
San Rafael, CA


Colin Elves
 

It’s the same sensor as the FS7 and the same 12bit linear raw now, no? (same sensor as the F5 in fact, except that records 16bit linear). 

So if Geoff is recording externally (Raw I’m assuming) it’d basically be the same result.

If you want to get into a discussion about the relative benefits of XAVC and the FS7s internal noise reduction, well... that’s something else.

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
London/Berlin


On 24 May 2018, at 20:05, Leonard Levy <nsll@...> wrote:

Well I tried, thanks for listening. 
I will wager however that regardless of what Sony is pushing, cml has a lot of FS7 users and not many on the FS5.
Full disclosure though: I am an FS7 owner with a vested interest :-)

Leonard Levy, DP
San Rafael, CA

Leonard Levy
 

Well I tried, thanks for listening. 
I will wager however that regardless of what Sony is pushing, cml has a lot of FS7 users and not many on the FS5.
Full disclosure though: I am an FS7 owner with a vested interest :-)

Leonard Levy, DP
San Rafael, CA


Geoff Boyle
 

I'm never going to be able to satisfy everyone and Sony has been pushing the FS5 hard recently.

We'll record externally.

cheers

Geoff Boyle NSC
cinematographer
travelling


From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> on behalf of Leonard Levy <nsll@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2018 7:31:07 PM
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@...
Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] Camera evaluations and lights
 
I'm working on two cameras per manufacturer, top and bottom of the range.

While understanding that objective, I would still suggest substituting the FS7 for the FS5 in your tests because it’s very widely used in mid/lower budget production  while the FS5 which is more of an outlier for those looking for a lightweight alternative.  FS7 users will be much more interested in your results since they’ve generally purchased it looking for a cheaper alternative to the ARRI and RED that still provides comparable quality. How comparable remains a very much disputed question that your tests may shed light on. Testing the FS5 in that context is pretty irrelevant . 

For professional production I would argue that Sony range of options is better displayed with the Venice at the top and the FS7 at the bottom. The FS5 is more a niche product and far less used.

Leonard Levy, DP
San Rafael, CA



Leonard Levy
 

I'm working on two cameras per manufacturer, top and bottom of the range.

While understanding that objective, I would still suggest substituting the FS7 for the FS5 in your tests because it’s very widely used in mid/lower budget production  while the FS5 which is more of an outlier for those looking for a lightweight alternative.  FS7 users will be much more interested in your results since they’ve generally purchased it looking for a cheaper alternative to the ARRI and RED that still provides comparable quality. How comparable remains a very much disputed question that your tests may shed light on. Testing the FS5 in that context is pretty irrelevant . 

For professional production I would argue that Sony range of options is better displayed with the Venice at the top and the FS7 at the bottom. The FS5 is more a niche product and far less used.

Leonard Levy, DP
San Rafael, CA



sid firstframe.com
 

I’m just happy you included the Kinefinity (hopefully Mavo LF)... I’m hoping that maybe another manufacturer will offer to support them so service does not become a Skype session and remote access. Fingers crossed.
Thanks for you do.


Sid
New England

SID LEVIN, Film+Edit
FirstFrame, Inc.
978.501.0488


From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> on behalf of Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2018 11:32:12 AM
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@...
Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] Camera evaluations and lights
 
I'm working on two cameras per manufacturer, top and bottom of the range.

I can't do more.

cheers

Geoff Boyle NSC
cinematographer
travelling


From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> on behalf of Robert A. Ober <robob@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2018 5:16:09 PM
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@...
Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] Camera evaluations and lights
 
On 5/24/18 03:37, Geoff Boyle wrote:

 

As for cameras I’ll try and include Alexa Mini, BMD Ursa MP and may new Pocket, Canon C200? & C700FF, Kinefinity Terra & Mavo?, Panasonic EVA to Shogun and Varicam Pure, Panavision DXL2 (not a chance) Red Gemini & Monstro, Sony FS5mk2 & Venice. I think that’s it 😊

 


____________________________________

I believe the FS7 was not in the last test so how about the FS7 Mark II ?

Thanks for doing these tests,
Robert


Robert A. Ober
IT Consultant, Vidcaster, & Freelancer
www.infohou.com
Houston, TX


Geoff Boyle
 

I'm working on two cameras per manufacturer, top and bottom of the range.

I can't do more.

cheers

Geoff Boyle NSC
cinematographer
travelling


From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> on behalf of Robert A. Ober <robob@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2018 5:16:09 PM
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@...
Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] Camera evaluations and lights
 
On 5/24/18 03:37, Geoff Boyle wrote:

 

As for cameras I’ll try and include Alexa Mini, BMD Ursa MP and may new Pocket, Canon C200? & C700FF, Kinefinity Terra & Mavo?, Panasonic EVA to Shogun and Varicam Pure, Panavision DXL2 (not a chance) Red Gemini & Monstro, Sony FS5mk2 & Venice. I think that’s it 😊

 


____________________________________

I believe the FS7 was not in the last test so how about the FS7 Mark II ?

Thanks for doing these tests,
Robert


Robert A. Ober
IT Consultant, Vidcaster, & Freelancer
www.infohou.com
Houston, TX


Robert A. Ober
 

On 5/24/18 03:37, Geoff Boyle wrote:

 

As for cameras I’ll try and include Alexa Mini, BMD Ursa MP and may new Pocket, Canon C200? & C700FF, Kinefinity Terra & Mavo?, Panasonic EVA to Shogun and Varicam Pure, Panavision DXL2 (not a chance) Red Gemini & Monstro, Sony FS5mk2 & Venice. I think that’s it 😊

 


____________________________________

I believe the FS7 was not in the last test so how about the FS7 Mark II ?

Thanks for doing these tests,
Robert


Robert A. Ober
IT Consultant, Vidcaster, & Freelancer
www.infohou.com
Houston, TX


James Barber
 

Hi Geoff

Don't want to assume you have infinite time/patience to test everything under the sun, but plasma lights are supposed to have VERY complete spectrums and tons of power per watt. Considering they're a little newer to the game it may be possible to get some free test units as I imagine they'd want to be more visible to all the CML members.

As far as I know, there are two companies doing these, Hive and Gavolights (US and UK based respectively).
  • Barbizon lighting deal with Hive in the UK, and this guy brought a demo for me once: acollins@... 
  • The Gavo Light guys at BVE seemed very knowledgeable (I mostly spoke with their German engineer), who says they have more consistent colour. Sounds plausible but I've never tested them. info@...
I know it's more a camera test, so if you're not keen to test a ton of lights, maybe this info would be useful for someone who is interested.

Regards

James Barber
Director/DP/Editor (I promise I'll specialise at some point)
London

sid firstframe.com
 

I’m just drooling reading this. Thanks for doing this and let the games begin!

SID LEVIN, Film+Edit
FirstFrame, Inc.
978.501.0488


From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> on behalf of Geoff Boyle <geoff@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2018 4:37:13 AM
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@...
Subject: [cml-raw-log-hdr] Camera evaluations and lights
 

I thought I’d start a new thread as the last one is all over the place 😊

 

I’ve been looking at previous tests and comparing the same cameras, admittedly with different firmware versions, under different lighting conditions.

 

HMI’s do vary but only a green/magenta axis variation and not a lot, probably because we make sure that we aren’t using old lamps!

 

Tungsten varies Blue/Amber but that will be the diffusion materials used combined with the age of the lamps.

 

The most consistent are BB&S, Cineo & Photon Beard, all remote phosphor.

 

I’ll ask K5600 if I can get a couple of the 1600 Joker 2’s or the Alpha 1600, it’ll be tight on light level but it should be enough. I need to get T11 at 400 ISO covering 4 * DSC charts with a bit spare.

 

I’ll try and get 4 * Blondes as these are the best punch for power/weight I can think of.

 

AND we’ll use the Sky Panels.

 

There will be 2 setups, first the charts in all 3 lighting conditions, then, time allowing, a booklight setup with a model and bits to be determined. This again will be all 3 lights but will only be normal to +4 stops. The charts will be +5 -3 stops. No camera I’ve looked at is useable below -3 so I’m saving time and data by not going there. Unless of course you know better.

 

As I’ll be shooting S35 and FF I’ll use primes this time, 50mm & 75mm or 85mm depends what they are 😊

 

As for cameras I’ll try and include Alexa Mini, BMD Ursa MP and may new Pocket, Canon C200? & C700FF, Kinefinity Terra & Mavo?, Panasonic EVA to Shogun and Varicam Pure, Panavision DXL2 (not a chance) Red Gemini & Monstro, Sony FS5mk2 & Venice. I think that’s it 😊

 

Allowing for breaks that’s about 90 minutes per camera which should be doable.

 

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Netherlands

www.gboyle.co.uk

 

 

 

 

Geoff Boyle
 

I thought I’d start a new thread as the last one is all over the place 😊

 

I’ve been looking at previous tests and comparing the same cameras, admittedly with different firmware versions, under different lighting conditions.

 

HMI’s do vary but only a green/magenta axis variation and not a lot, probably because we make sure that we aren’t using old lamps!

 

Tungsten varies Blue/Amber but that will be the diffusion materials used combined with the age of the lamps.

 

The most consistent are BB&S, Cineo & Photon Beard, all remote phosphor.

 

I’ll ask K5600 if I can get a couple of the 1600 Joker 2’s or the Alpha 1600, it’ll be tight on light level but it should be enough. I need to get T11 at 400 ISO covering 4 * DSC charts with a bit spare.

 

I’ll try and get 4 * Blondes as these are the best punch for power/weight I can think of.

 

AND we’ll use the Sky Panels.

 

There will be 2 setups, first the charts in all 3 lighting conditions, then, time allowing, a booklight setup with a model and bits to be determined. This again will be all 3 lights but will only be normal to +4 stops. The charts will be +5 -3 stops. No camera I’ve looked at is useable below -3 so I’m saving time and data by not going there. Unless of course you know better.

 

As I’ll be shooting S35 and FF I’ll use primes this time, 50mm & 75mm or 85mm depends what they are 😊

 

As for cameras I’ll try and include Alexa Mini, BMD Ursa MP and may new Pocket, Canon C200? & C700FF, Kinefinity Terra & Mavo?, Panasonic EVA to Shogun and Varicam Pure, Panavision DXL2 (not a chance) Red Gemini & Monstro, Sony FS5mk2 & Venice. I think that’s it 😊

 

Allowing for breaks that’s about 90 minutes per camera which should be doable.

 

 

Cheers

 

Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS

Cinematographer

Netherlands

www.gboyle.co.uk