Topics

Apple ProRes Raw and Raw HQ

Colin Elves
 

So… Looks like there’s gonna be a new compressed Raw format on the block - and thanks to the Atomos Inferno and Sumo, a whole bunch of cameras will be recording to it: 


And it is fully compatible with… wait for it… FCPX! and… wait for it… nothing else!

I know you’re all excited to hear this.

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
London/Berlin

 

There must be some logic to it - if some can explain it to me.

Michael Sanders
London Based DP.

+ 44 (0) 7976 269818




On 5 Apr 2018, at 20:41, Colin Elves <colin@...> wrote:

So… Looks like there’s gonna be a new compressed Raw format on the block - and thanks to the Atomos Inferno and Sumo, a whole bunch of cameras will be recording to it: 


And it is fully compatible with… wait for it… FCPX! and… wait for it… nothing else!

I know you’re all excited to hear this.

Colin Elves
 

The deal with Red. Purchasing SMI. The endless expansion of iTunes… my guess is end to end content acquisition. So iTunes becomes another Netflix/Amazon/Hulu specialising in HDR and 3D content (I suspect they are developing a glasses free screen - otherwise why acquire SMI?) that Hydrogen becomes the new iPhone. And you can produce all this content for home and professional use on an ‘Apple’ camera, edit and grade on an ‘apple’ computer, using apple software, sell it to an Apple streaming service and watch it on an Apple TV that is an actual TV. 

It’s that whole ‘Apple eco-system’ but expanded to include entertainment and even more of what we do…

Not sure this belongs in Raw-log-HDR anymore though!

Colin Elves
Director of Photography




On 5 Apr 2018, at 21:43, Michael Sanders <glowstars@...> wrote:

There must be some logic to it - if some can explain it to me.

Michael Sanders
London Based DP.

+ 44 (0) 7976 269818




On 5 Apr 2018, at 20:41, Colin Elves <colin@...> wrote:

So… Looks like there’s gonna be a new compressed Raw format on the block - and thanks to the Atomos Inferno and Sumo, a whole bunch of cameras will be recording to it: 


And it is fully compatible with… wait for it… FCPX! and… wait for it… nothing else!

I know you’re all excited to hear this.

John Brawley
 

RAW control without leaving ProRes or having to transcode to ProRes from another RAW format. 

It’s actually great. I’d say 90% of TV drama is shot ProRes. Now we get RAW controls inside of ProRes. 

JB


John Brawley
Chicago IL
DP - Untitled Robert Levine pilot, formally Gone Baby Gone


There must be some logic to it - if some can explain it to me.

Michael Sanders
London Based DP.


Mitch Gross
 

It’s only on FCPX because Apple made it and integrated it into their software. The same thing happened with video ProRes and that eventually was made available on other platforms. 

ProRes RAW looks to be crazy efficient and easy to use. Plus it exports out of FCPX very fast — much faster than other RAW formats. 

I think it will make a great way to work for lots of people shooting on the EVA1 and VariCam LT. 


Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager 
Panasonic Media Entertainment Company
New York

On Apr 5, 2018, at 12:41 PM, Colin Elves <colin@...> wrote:

So… Looks like there’s gonna be a new compressed Raw format on the block - and thanks to the Atomos Inferno and Sumo, a whole bunch of cameras will be recording to it: 


And it is fully compatible with… wait for it… FCPX! and… wait for it… nothing else!

I know you’re all excited to hear this.

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
London/Berlin

Colin Elves
 

I’ve just been told it will be supported in Resolve 15 which is being announced this weekend. So that’s good!

Colin Elves
Director of Photography




On 5 Apr 2018, at 22:17, Mitch Gross <mitchgrosscml@...> wrote:

It’s only on FCPX because Apple made it and integrated it into their software. The same thing happened with video ProRes and that eventually was made available on other platforms. 

Gavin Greenwalt
 

“ProRes eventually was made available on other platforms.”

Only if you sell millions of copies of software. They still won’t license it to smaller developers which makes it hard to integrate into VFX pipelines. 

I’ve never stopped and thought to myself “I really love this raw format, I just wish that I could also have the weird gamma and rendering inconsistencies of Quicktime though too. 😃

Gavin Greenwalt
VFX Supervisor
Seattle, WA

Colin Elves
 

Oh god. Please move this to Post before Geoff or one of the other listmums gives me an almighty spanking for starting this in Raw!

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
Berlin/London. 




On 5 Apr 2018, at 22:43, Gavin Greenwalt <im.thatoneguy@...> wrote:

“ProRes eventually was made available on other platforms.”

Only if you sell millions of copies of software. They still won’t license it to smaller developers which makes it hard to integrate into VFX pipelines.  

I’ve never stopped and thought to myself “I really love this raw format, I just wish that I could also have the weird gamma and rendering inconsistencies of Quicktime though too. 😃

Gavin Greenwalt
VFX Supervisor
Seattle, WA
_._,_._,_

Nathan Armstrong
 

"it will make a great way to work for lots of people shooting on the EVA1 and VariCam LT"

Mitch are you hinting at something here?  Is Panasonic planning to record ProresRAW in-camera? Or would this be an on-board recorder scenario?

Thanks,
Nathan Armstrong
DIT, Minneapolis
801.362.1741


Art Adams
 

I think the odds of Apple turning Hydrogen into the next iPhone are slim to none. They're not going to release an Android phone. They may buy technology from it, though. They have a history of doing that.

If I had to guess, I'd say this is about making Apple relevant to industry professionals again after dropping the ball with the Mac Pro and FCPX.

I don't like that ProRes is a closed format. I do like that no one is scared of it, in that it's a tried-and-true industry staple. 95% of what I shoot is on ProRes 4444.

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area

Art Adams
 

Interesting that the white paper specifically calls out Panasonic V-Log in a Final Cut Pro screen grab. :)

If these data rates are correct, and the compression artifacts are minimal, I suspect this is going to cause some big changes in the industry. The FCPX example in the white paper specifically references HDR output, so my guess is that they are trying to create a better workflow for HDR material than recording to codecs that create huge files at high bitrates.

The one thing they don't mention is the bit depth, although they compare it to 12-bit raw in one graph.

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area

Fahnon
 

It looks exciting, and I'm assuming that it will be widely adopted.  RED and Blackmagic in particular would be a great fit for in-camera recording, and I wouldn't be all that surprised to see Blackmagic have support at NAB (either existing cameras or a new announcement).  If it works as advertised, I think Canon would be wise to add this to their cinema line (C200 and up) and maybe ditch Canon Raw Light on new models.

If Panasonic added it to the EVA1 for internal recording it would be the camera to beat unless you really, really need autofocus...

On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 4:59 PM, Art Adams <art.cml.only@...> wrote:
I think the odds of Apple turning Hydrogen into the next iPhone are slim to none. They're not going to release an Android phone. They may buy technology from it, though. They have a history of doing that.

If I had to guess, I'd say this is about making Apple relevant to industry professionals again after dropping the ball with the Mac Pro and FCPX.

I don't like that ProRes is a closed format. I do like that no one is scared of it, in that it's a tried-and-true industry staple. 95% of what I shoot is on ProRes 4444.

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area




--
Fahnon Bennett
Filmmaker/Photographer
Brooklyn, New York
323.375.4332

Colin Elves
 

I’ve been told that’s exactly what the intention is: To make HDR workflows more accessible and they’re probably developing an HDR display to go with it (and I’m assuming HDR streaming for iTunes). 

The Atomos says 12bit RGB: https://www.atomos.com/proresraw 8K+ etc

Mitch mentioned the LT and EVA1 as on the list of supported cameras - so you’ll be able to record the raw streams from those as ProRes Raw using an Inferno from Monday.

In terms of the phones: I’m not suggesting that Apple will start selling the Hydrogen as an iphone, I just mean they might well buy up Red or a big chunk of them and take the tech to put into an iPhone…

Looks like the first ‘camera’ to get ProRes Raw internally will be the DJI ZenmuseX7: https://www.dji.com/newsroom/news/dji-updates-zenmuse-x7-camera-with-support-for-apple-prores-raw

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
Berlin/London




On 5 Apr 2018, at 23:14, Art Adams <art.cml.only@...> wrote:

Interesting that the white paper specifically calls out Panasonic V-Log in a Final Cut Pro screen grab. :)

If these data rates are correct, and the compression artifacts are minimal, I suspect this is going to cause some big changes in the industry. The FCPX example in the white paper specifically references HDR output, so my guess is that they are trying to create a better workflow for HDR material than recording to codecs that create huge files at high bitrates.

The one thing they don't mention is the bit depth, although they compare it to 12-bit raw in one graph.

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area

Jessica Gallant
 

Newsshooter.com reports that Atomos’ implementation of ProRes RAW (via a firmware upgrade on
their Shogun Inferno and Sumo 19) will support up to 12 bit RAW:

https://www.newsshooter.com/2018/04/06/prores-raw-is-here/

I just got the 12 bit RAW upgrade for my FS5 a few weeks ago and have been waiting patiently for
Atomos to offer a RAW upgrade for their recorders so it looks like my timing was good. : )

Jessica Gallant
Director of Photography | Los Angeles | CA
http://jessicajgallant.com
http://wb.imdb.com/name/nm0002680/
cell: 818-645-2787
email: jessicajgallant@...
Skype: jessicajgallant


On Apr 5, 2018, at 2:14 PM, Art Adams <art.cml.only@...> wrote:

The one thing they don't mention is the bit depth, although they compare it to 12-bit raw in one graph.

Adam Wilt
 

According to RedShark News - Huge News from Atomos and Apple: a completely new species of ProRes

Atomos is the launch partner with Apple for the inclusion of the new ProRes Raw format in its recorders.

Apple ProRes Raw will be available as an upgrade to the Sumo 19" recorder/monitor and on the Shogun Inferno. Both of these have sufficient processing power for Apple ProRes Raw. Earlier Atomos recorders will not be upgradeable because they do not have powerful enough processors. 

Out of the gate, there are eight cameras supported from today: Panasonic EVA1, Panasonic Varicam LT, Canon C300 Mk II, Sony FS700, Sony FS5 and Sony FS7 with the optional XDCA add-on.

As to bit depth, today’s Panasonic press release says: 

With the new EVA2.0 firmware, the EVA1 can output 10-bit Log-encoded RAW data in 5.7K up to 30fps, 4K up to 60fps, and 2K up to 240fps.

I expect by Monday we’ll know a whole lot more.  :-)

Adam Wilt
technical services: consulting / coding / camerawork
Vancouver WA USA (no, not that Vancouver, the other one)

Gavin Greenwalt
 

Bitrate wise ProRes Raw and ProResHQ compare very favourably with ProRes 422HQ and ProRes4444 respectively. “

That strikes me as a bit odd considering ProRes 4444 has to store 3ish channels but ProRes RAW only has to store 1.  I would expect ProRes RAW for similar image quality to have 1/3rd of the data requirements of its RAW Equivalent. Maybe they mean compared to the 1080p version of the 4k footage?  Or maybe they are finding that RAW requires higher bitrates to not artifact when later debayered.

Gavin Greenwalt
Pixel Peeper
Seattle, WA

Mahrer, Stephen
 

One last question… both have things to do… ;-)      Will there be any “special” training on this… there had better be!

We need a story and a laminated card for the TAMs to quote from, not just paraphrase next week.

 

Cool!

 

Steve

 

From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... [mailto:cml-raw-log-hdr@...] On Behalf Of Art Adams
Sent: Thursday, April 5, 2018 3:14 PM
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@...
Subject: Re: [raw-log-hdr] Apple ProRes Raw and Raw HQ

 

Interesting that the white paper specifically calls out Panasonic V-Log in a Final Cut Pro screen grab. :)

 

If these data rates are correct, and the compression artifacts are minimal, I suspect this is going to cause some big changes in the industry. The FCPX example in the white paper specifically references HDR output, so my guess is that they are trying to create a better workflow for HDR material than recording to codecs that create huge files at high bitrates.

 

The one thing they don't mention is the bit depth, although they compare it to 12-bit raw in one graph.

 

--

Art Adams

Director of Photography

San Francisco Bay Area

 

nsoltz@...
 

I was on the Atomos call at bit earlier today, so a few things that I picked up.

 

ProRes RAW bit depth depends upon what the camera sends out. So for Varicam it would be 14 bit, for Sony FS it would be 12 bit, etc etc

 

Jeromy also intimated that Atomos will be the only recorder that will encode ProRes RAW “for a while.” That implies to me (note, my interpretation here) that Convergent-Design, etc are frozen out for the moment.

 

I would also expect that Resolve 15 would support ProRes RAW but I have no direct information from BMD that I can share.

 

They were showing the AJA IO 4K box for output of HDR to reference monitor which doesn’t surprise me since in an earlier test with FCP X 10.4 and HDR coming from a Decklink 12G Extreme 4K to HDR monitor via SDI, I could not successfully output HDR signal. Atomos told me at that point that only the AJA box would work dependably. Note, however, that the same HLG footage brought into Resolve and processed accordingly would output properly.

 

There will be Apple people in the Atomos booth at NAB so I’m looking forward to a closer look and more technical details, particularly when it comes to workflow.

 

Ned Soltz

Owner-operator/editor/colorist-wanna-be

NewBay Media

Redsharknews.com

Teaneck, NJ

Mitch Gross
 

On Apr 5, 2018, at 1:33 PM, Nathan Armstrong <armstrong.nathan@...> wrote:

Mitch are you hinting at something here?  Is Panasonic planning to record ProresRAW in-camera? Or would this be an on-board recorder scenario?

Both the EVA1 and VariCam LT RAW outputs will be supported by the Atomos recorders for ProRes RAW capture. 4K60p/2K240p at launch on Monday, EVA1 5.7K30p in May. 


Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager 
Panasonic Media Entertainment Company
New York


Mitch Gross
 

On Apr 5, 2018, at 2:14 PM, Art Adams <art.cml.only@...> wrote:

The one thing they don't mention is the bit depth, although they compare it to 12-bit raw in one graph.

I believe it depends on the input signal. For instance, you can get 12-but or 10-bit Log RAW from the VariCam LT depending on camera mode. 

Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager 
Panasonic Media Entertainment Company
New York