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Apple ProRes Raw and Raw HQ

Alexander Ibrahim
 

The short answer Leonard is that ProRes Raw won’t change that equation. 

The longer answer is the FS7 raw output can be represented extremely well with ProRes Raw (or Raw HQ) 

The F5 and F55 raw recorded internally will have more data and be of better quality, so the question is if it matters in your application. 

The limitation is hardware i/o standards, which at present limit raw output to 12bit. 

If we get better i\o standards ProRes Raw will be likely be updated to handle higher bit depth. 


Alexander Ibrahim
Sent from my mobile phone. 
Please excuse typos and brevity. 

On Apr 7, 2018, at 14:44, Leonard Levy <nsll@...> wrote:

This is all a little confusing to me and gets a bit beyond my tech knowledge. How well will the new ProRes Raw codec interface with a camera like the FS7 that outputs 12BIT Raw, but that’s generally been disparaged compared to the 16Bit raw of the F5 and F55. 
Adding to my confusion on that is that the Atomos recorder as I understand only accepts 12bit Raw in first place so how will that interface with  say the F5 compared to the FS7?

Leonard Levy, DP
San Rafael, CA





Paul Curtis
 

Some excellent points being made.

As i mentioned i think a better choice would have been a full range mezzanine codec that just works. IMHO i think camera manufactures should retain the debayer process because that's where some of the camera magic comes from and it can also benefit from specific sensor implementations, after all not all sensors are the same debayer pattern nor should they be. (Wasn't the sony RGBW at some point?)

I think the key is to store the full range light in linear (with compression) then it is so easy to take that where you want to go and no room for stupid gamma or colourspace issues.

We should not be working in 709 any more, the tail ends of the gamma curve just compress usable highlight and shadow detail, it's a delivery gamma, not a workflow one.

Also some of us need all the full range linear in post.

So if Apple had slammed down a ProRes Linear intermediate codec, with VBR and maybe a couple of quality settings and found a way to read that data in 'simple' mode for decimating the output for speed then i for one would be all over that. Basically EXR and ACES for the masses, with Piz or DW compression.

I just don't get what ProRes RAW will bring professionals

cheers
Paul

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK




On 8 Apr 2018, at 03:42, Alexander Ibrahim <alexander.ibrahim@...> wrote:

The short answer Leonard is that ProRes Raw won’t change that equation. 

The longer answer is the FS7 raw output can be represented extremely well with ProRes Raw (or Raw HQ) 

The F5 and F55 raw recorded internally will have more data and be of better quality, so the question is if it matters in your application. 

The limitation is hardware i/o standards, which at present limit raw output to 12bit. 

If we get better i\o standards ProRes Raw will be likely be updated to handle higher bit depth. 


Alexander Ibrahim
Sent from my mobile phone. 
Please excuse typos and brevity. 

On Apr 7, 2018, at 14:44, Leonard Levy <nsll@...> wrote:

This is all a little confusing to me and gets a bit beyond my tech knowledge. How well will the new ProRes Raw codec interface with a camera like the FS7 that outputs 12BIT Raw, but that’s generally been disparaged compared to the 16Bit raw of the F5 and F55. 
Adding to my confusion on that is that the Atomos recorder as I understand only accepts 12bit Raw in first place so how will that interface with  say the F5 compared to the FS7?

Leonard Levy, DP
San Rafael, CA





Daniel Rozsnyó
 


On 04/08/2018 11:36 AM, Paul Curtis wrote:
I think the key is to store the full range light in linear (with compression) then it is so easy to take that where you want to go and no room for stupid gamma or colourspace issues.

This is where DNG does the best. Every frame bears a so called "Linearization table", which is put next to the data by the party who did the compression. So you take a 14-16 bit input, apply a LUT/curve, compress and store the inverse of that curve into the Linearization table as a LUT. The reader is then able to recover the LINEAR data (with some quantization loss and compression artifacts).

No need for any 3rd party LUTs. The DNG is self-contained, with all the information required for developing into a nice image (color matrix to go into XYZ and to some extent a hue/sat map like from an ICC profile).

The stupid issues are always made by incompetent software developers
    - like mixing full/legal range (assuming one option and ignoring the format's specific or even an explicit metadata tag).
    - or not implementing all the features (I know Adobe ignores the crop metadata)


Daniel Rozsnyo
camera developer
Prague, Czech Republic

axel.mertes
 





Von meinem Samsung Galaxy Smartphone gesendet.

>As a side note, R3D relying on jp2k’s absurdly high processing requirements has been a far too long uncorrected oversight. [..] Hopefully ProRes raw if nothing else will pressure ARRI to compress and RED to find a less cpu heavy encoding.

That souls be Cineform/SMPTE VC5.

I did years of codec comparisons and VC5 is still the best intermediate format around. Fast, small, high quality, true wavelet = low res decoding with no downscale quality and less CPU requirements, YUV, RGB, RAW, or simply bitmap compression if you want to, log curve support and I can actually export in RAW if I want to. The best is long there, but it was neither named RED (because their negotiations lead nowhere back then) nor Apple. Now its OpenSource and no one wakes up. Its a shame.

If one is interested to see how good Cineform holds up in workflows/iterative reompression, mail me.

Maybe I need to do a full codec analysis with the latest new codecs and release those results. That may help.

Maybe I should note that I was the one who convinced Iridas to implement Debayer via GPU, at times when it was impossible to feed uncompressed 4k into GPU via PCIe due to bandwidth limitations. We played 4k in realtime then and the technology became a big deal for Iridas, supporting many of camera RAW formats and being a preferred ARRI partner. That all is now inside Adobe... And yes, they supported Cineform from day one, and so does Adobe. Guess I need to learn VHDL and finally implement Cineform on that level of FPGAs and ASICs. Many camera vendors play lego with big blocks. Take a sensor, take some FPGA image processing code libraries (such as from Helion), take some compression chip, add a storage medium and here you are. Only few have the capacity to go that much deeper and really develop something proprietary on that end.

I think we should not elaborate on how and why RED went really proprietary after build 15 of their RED ONE firmware release.

Cheers
Axel Mertes, CTO
Magna Mana
Germany

Jeff Kreines
 

On Apr 8, 2018, at 7:24 PM, axel.mertes <axel.mertes@...> wrote:

That souls be Cineform/SMPTE VC5.
I second that. And it’s now open-source. I’m surprised camera manufacturers haven’t embraced it.


Jeff Kreines
Kinetta
jeff@...
kinetta.com

Sent from iPhone.

Hans von Sonntag, Filmmaker
 

Axel, I can't load Cineform into my Flame. I can do that with Arri, Red and Sony Raw (in a few days Venice as well). Upcoming Flame 2019.1 will work with ProRes RAW, at least very probable. Won't happen with Cineform. This is not because Cineform is bad (I had issues with the codec and went back to ProRes but this is over 8 years ago) it is because Apple, Arri, Sony and even Red have a multitude of economical power. At some point the software companies have to focus their development resources and this is why Cineform won't be implemented in ADSK software.

---

Regarding proprietary format vs. open source: while there are obvious advantages of publicly documented and open source available codecs and software, there is more to this. The only open source software I use is Centos 7. You have to be an IT expert do deal with that properly. Because I'm an IT-dyslexic I have to hire brain to maintain the Centos. This costs considerable money I have to factor in. I don't have to do that with OSX or Windows. In my whole carrier I was happy with proprietary formats, Betacam, Digibeta, 35mm, 16mm, D1, HDCAM and SR, ProRes and whatnot. There were solid economical interests behind them. That made them strong in the market, secure, user-friendly, and spares me IT nerdity. Frankly, I have the feeling that exactly this was an issue with various Cineform builds. Great ideas, smart brains behind, not so good understanding of the user.

Apple on the contrary is all about the user.

Best!

Hans

Bob Kertesz
 

Apple on the contrary is all about the user.
I hope you're being sarcastic. Apple, like ALL big corporations, is all
about Apple, keeping things proprietary, and maximizing shareholder
value/stock price.

If the user happens to benefit, that's OK, but it's not that important,
and certainly not ANY company's prime reason for existing unless it
happens to coincide with making profits and controlling the market to
the extent possible.

The list of user hostile moves by Apple, Microsoft, Adobe, etc. over at
least the last two decades would have to be split into several posts to
be enumerated here.

-Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California

DIT, Video Controller, and live compositor extraordinaire.

High quality images for more than four decades - whether you've wanted
them or not.©

* * * * * * * * * *

Hans von Sonntag, Filmmaker
 

Bob, I'm not arguing capitalism. It's all about profit. And it's not philanthropic. But business models vary. Apple's business model is the happy user. Heavily condensed: Apple = all about user.

And of course you can leave it. For now we (still) live in a free world (sort of).

Hans

Jeff Kreines
 

On Apr 9, 2018, at 6:37 AM, Hans von Sonntag, Filmmaker <hans@...> wrote:

Axel, I can't load Cineform into my Flame.
Seems to me that’s Flame’s fault. Resolve added it quickly when asked. Adobe supports it.

Of course with Resolve 15 who needs Flame? ;-)


Jeff Kreines
Kinetta
jeff@...
kinetta.com

Sent from iPhone.

Adam Wilt
 

Apple on the contrary is all about the user.
I hope you're being sarcastic.

Perhaps it’s more accurate to say that Apple is probably the least intentionally use-abusive company out there. For such small blessings we should be grateful.

We would zig zag our way through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain
Wondering which of the buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing.
— Pink Floyd

Adam Wilt
technical services: consulting / coding / camerawork
Vancouver WA USA (no, not that Vancouver, the other one)

Hans von Sonntag, Filmmaker
 

At least the Flame team is sufficiently small that world domination is not on the agenda.

Hans

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