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DXL Millennium and 8K Monstro


Jonathon Sendall
 

Does anybody know if there is a colour science (or any other colour difference) between the DXL Millennium 2 and the Red Monstro on which the DXL 2 is based?

cheers

Jonathon Sendall
DP, London UK


Rakesh Malik
 

From what I understand, Light Iron has built its own look for the Millenium cameras that does differ from the "stock" Monstro look. I think it's essentially an in camera color grade rather than some proprietary technology, and it's available for Red cameras as part of the Panavision accessory kit for Red.

This is however based on articles from Panavision and Red, and chatting with Michael Cioni at Cinegear rather than personal experience, as I haven't had an opportunity to use a Millenium DXL except in Panavision's booth.

-----------------------------


On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 3:43 PM Jonathon Sendall <jpsendall@...> wrote:
Does anybody know if there is a colour science (or any other colour difference) between the DXL Millennium 2 and the Red Monstro on which the DXL 2 is based?

cheers

Jonathon Sendall
DP, London UK


Jonathon Sendall
 

Sorry I should be a bit clearer. I don’t mean in terms of what Light Iron Colour 2 can do to the image but in the RAW pipeline from both cameras, is there any jiggery pokery before RAW gets dropped into any NLE or colour grading scenario.

Jonathon Sendall
DP, London UK


Philip Holland
 

The Panavision DXL2 Monstro and RED Monstro 8K VV DSMC2 as well as Ranger Monstro 8K VV all produce the same image if working straight through RED's IPP2 workflow, i.e. the same image.

However!  Panavision doesn't use what is known as ISO Calibration 2, which can be checked in the metadata of your clip.  So basically ISO 800 on a RED Monstro camera will be about 1 stop brighter than the Panavision DXL2 Monstro at ISO 800.  That might even change at some point, but that's the current way they are doing it.

Besides that, pay attention to what OLPF is in the camera.  Most DXL2 shoots are using the Low Light Optimized OLPF, but you have access to RED's other OLPFs like the Standard and Skin Tone - Highlight OLPF as well as Panavision's own custom OLPF.

Hope that helps,

Phil

-----------------
Phil Holland - Cinematographer
http://www.phfx.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0390802/
818 470 0623


From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> on behalf of Jonathon Sendall via Cml.News <jpsendall=gmail.com@...>
Sent: Friday, October 4, 2019 3:52 PM
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...>
Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] DXL Millennium and 8K Monstro
 
Sorry I should be a bit clearer. I don’t mean in terms of what Light Iron Colour 2 can do to the image but in the RAW pipeline from both cameras, is there any jiggery pokery before RAW gets dropped into any NLE or colour grading scenario.

Jonathon Sendall
DP, London UK


Jonathon Sendall
 

That’s good to know Phillip thanks. 

In in the main I'm looking for any possible colour shift between the two rather than anything else.

Jonthon Sendall
DP, London UK


Pawel Achtel ACS
 

Jonathon Sendall wrote: “…is there any jiggery pokery before RAW gets dropped into any NLE or colour grading scenario…”


I compared colour gamuts and colour accuracy of both cameras and there appears to be some differences as well as common traits.

 

The test was performed using IPP2 pipeline, REDWideGamutRGB using RCX and outputting REC2020 to monitor.

Both sensors were exposed to all visible monochromatic spectrum projected directly on the sensors using laboratory-grade monochromator, which is much more accurate than using colour charts.

 

Both cameras reproduced greens and cyans significantly de-saturated compared to REC2020 target.  Monstro appears to have slightly deeper, more saturated greens.

Monstro covered REC709 green saturation, whereas DXL2 didn’t. None of the cameras could achieve P3-DCI saturation of greens and fell way short of target REC-2020 green saturation.

 

Saturation as well as accuracy of blue colours was very good on both cameras.

 

Colour shifts in DXL2 were significantly larger than Monstro’s, turning red colours into magentas (line of magentas in CIE should be clear in an ideal case).

Below are CIE 1931 chromacity diagrams of all visible monochromatic colours reproduced by both cameras: Monstro and DXL2 respectively.

 

Figure 1RED Monstro

Figure 2Panavision DXL2

Below, vector scope outputs. In ideal scenario, the scope should resemble a pizza with magenta slice entirely missing (because magenta is not a monochromatic colour). Clearly visible is a shift of red towards magenta as well as desaturated greens observed on CIE chromacity diagrams.

 

Figure 3RED Monstro

Figure 4Panavision DXL2

Another problem we encountered was with RCX in that it significantly affected the colour vector as well as saturation of monochromatic colours with colour temperature adjustment.

In an ideal world, monochromatic colours should be invariant to colour temperature change, but this doesn’t appear to hold true in RCX (presumably a bug).

 

Hope it helps.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc.

“Sharp to the Edge”

 

ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417

Website: www.achtel.com

Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747)

Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia

Email: Pawel.Achtel@...

Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel

Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel

 


Philip Holland
 

What OLPF was inside both cameras Pawel?

Phil

-----------------
Phil Holland - Cinematographer
http://www.phfx.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0390802/
818 470 0623


From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> on behalf of Pawel Achtel ACS via Cml.News <pawel.achtel=24x7.com.au@...>
Sent: Friday, October 4, 2019 5:09 PM
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...>
Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] DXL Millennium and 8K Monstro
 

Jonathon Sendall wrote: “…is there any jiggery pokery before RAW gets dropped into any NLE or colour grading scenario…”


I compared colour gamuts and colour accuracy of both cameras and there appears to be some differences as well as common traits.

 

The test was performed using IPP2 pipeline, REDWideGamutRGB using RCX and outputting REC2020 to monitor.

Both sensors were exposed to all visible monochromatic spectrum projected directly on the sensors using laboratory-grade monochromator, which is much more accurate than using colour charts.

 

Both cameras reproduced greens and cyans significantly de-saturated compared to REC2020 target.  Monstro appears to have slightly deeper, more saturated greens.

Monstro covered REC709 green saturation, whereas DXL2 didn’t. None of the cameras could achieve P3-DCI saturation of greens and fell way short of target REC-2020 green saturation.

 

Saturation as well as accuracy of blue colours was very good on both cameras.

 

Colour shifts in DXL2 were significantly larger than Monstro’s, turning red colours into magentas (line of magentas in CIE should be clear in an ideal case).

Below are CIE 1931 chromacity diagrams of all visible monochromatic colours reproduced by both cameras: Monstro and DXL2 respectively.

 

Figure 1RED Monstro

Figure 2Panavision DXL2

Below, vector scope outputs. In ideal scenario, the scope should resemble a pizza with magenta slice entirely missing (because magenta is not a monochromatic colour). Clearly visible is a shift of red towards magenta as well as desaturated greens observed on CIE chromacity diagrams.

 

Figure 3RED Monstro

Figure 4Panavision DXL2

Another problem we encountered was with RCX in that it significantly affected the colour vector as well as saturation of monochromatic colours with colour temperature adjustment.

In an ideal world, monochromatic colours should be invariant to colour temperature change, but this doesn’t appear to hold true in RCX (presumably a bug).

 

Hope it helps.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc.

“Sharp to the Edge”

 

ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417

Website: www.achtel.com

Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747)

Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia

Email: Pawel.Achtel@...

Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel

Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel

 


John Brawley
 

Hi Jonathon. 

I recently did a lot of testing with the DXL2 for a series and in the end made a different choice.

I have tested DXL1 previously and would say that there’s a huge improvement with the DXL2, especially under (real) tungsten lighting. 

The show I’m currently doing has a lot of candles and fire light and that’s what swayed me away from DXL2 in the end. 

As I understand it there’s nothing different inside the camera per se with regards to imaging, but they are working on a Panavision designed OLPF to replace the stock one. I believe it’s late being delivered. 

I was offered a more customised OLPF for the particular issues I was seeing in my tests to try out but we had to make a choice by that point. 

I actually tested Alexa 65, Sony Venice and DXL2 alonside each other and they all had their strengths. 

JB


John Brawley
Cinematographer
London UK


Agent US :
Innovative Artists

Representation :
Stacey Testro Int.



On Oct 5, 2019 at 12:43 AM, <Jonathon Sendall> wrote:

Does anybody know if there is a colour science (or any other colour difference) between the DXL Millennium 2 and the Red Monstro on which the DXL 2 is based?

cheers

Jonathon Sendall
DP, London UK


Pawel Achtel ACS
 

Phil Holland wrote: What OLPF was inside both cameras Pawel?”

 

Good question, Phil.

The DXL2 metadata say Low Light Optimised, but might have been replaced by custom Panavision OLPF, not sure.

The Monstro was Standard OLPF.

 

cheers,

 

Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc.

“Sharp to the Edge”

 

ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417

Website: www.achtel.com

Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747)

Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia

Email: Pawel.Achtel@...

Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel

Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel

 


Ben Tubb
 

I’m fairly certain the DXL2 uses a custom proprietary OLPF Panavision calls “PX Pro”.

Thanks,
Benjamin Tubb
A-Cam 1st AC - The Haunting of Bly Manor
Vancouver, BC
604-908-5219
benjamin.tubb@...


daveblackham@...
 

Any clues what the PX Pro OLPF is rated at for ISO and any characteristics it might or might not offer ?

Dave Blackham
Esprit Film and Television UK


Ben Tubb
 

From dxl.panavision.com:

A custom color correction filter made with a high-precision design and manufacturing process, PX Pro provides a significant increase in color separation and greater color precision. The filters provide an infrared (IR) and ultraviolet (UV) cut that improves color clarity and reduces noise and IR contamination. The characteristics are most notably demonstrated in lens flares and highlights, resulting in a cleaner image that enables for more creative control. The optical and electronic elements of the PX Pro work together with the Panavision glass, RED V V sensor, and Light Iron Color 2 to create a look completely unique to DXL2.”

Thanks,
Benjamin Tubb
A-Cam 1st AC - The Haunting of Bly Manor
604-908-5219


Bob Kertesz
 

"The filters provide an infrared (IR) and ultraviolet (UV) cut that improves color clarity and reduces noise and IR contamination."

In general, IR cut filters are notoriously tricky to get right.

Cut too much in the IR spectrum, and red reproduction is affected.

As was noted by Pawel in his post with the color triangles.

-Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California

Engineer, Video Controller, and Live Compositor Extraordinaire.

High quality images for more than four decades - whether you've wanted them or not.©

* * * * * * * * * *


Philip Holland
 

Expanding on OLPFs a bit for those who don't think about them much.

Many focus on producing cleaner images these days.  Which is why the Low Light Optimized and Standard OLPFs are pretty common, but for those looking to get "the best color" out of Monstro, give the Skin Tone - Highlight OLPF a whirl.

Each Filter blocks, reflects, or absorbs IR and UV light differently as well as effecting the underlying Color Science Calibration.  The cameras these days detect which OLPF so it's pretty transparent to the filmmaker.  Since they are blocking incoming light they have an effect on image texture/noise/grain for a given ISO Rating.  Interestingly the calibration of each works well across all the various sensor RED has on the market.  However, you'll find some sensor might be less noisy with some of these filters than you'd expect.  For instance the STH on Monstro is cleaner than Dragon due to the sensor's native color.

LLO = Least IR and Light Blocking, cleanest at higher ISO ratings.  Most prone to internal reflections.
Standard = Fairly close in transmission to the LLO, but with slightly better color.
STH = Best color, but blocks the most light hitting the sensor. Least prone to internal reflections.

Personally I haven't used the Low Light OLPF in some time. Mostly the Standard and Skin Tone - Highlight Filters since about Dragon.  If you are shooting into darkness, the LLO will certainly have it's place.

There are 3rd party OLPFs from places like KipperTie with diffusion built in for a behind the lens "always on" effect.  Those are being used on a couple shows.

-----------------
Phil Holland - Cinematographer
http://www.phfx.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0390802/
818 470 0623


From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> on behalf of Bob Kertesz <bob@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2019 11:24 AM
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...>
Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] DXL Millennium and 8K Monstro
 
"The filters provide an infrared (IR) and ultraviolet (UV) cut that improves color clarity and reduces noise and IR contamination."

In general, IR cut filters are notoriously tricky to get right.

Cut too much in the IR spectrum, and red reproduction is affected.

As was noted by Pawel in his post with the color triangles.

-Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California

Engineer, Video Controller, and Live Compositor Extraordinaire.

High quality images for more than four decades - whether you've wanted them or not.©

* * * * * * * * * *


Jonathon Sendall
 

Thanks to all who chipped in. All very helpful.

The reason I asked about colour differences is that I should be conducting a test with a particular light and calibration to a DXL2 was defined. However in the absence of the DXL2 and swapping it out to a Monstro I wanted to know if their would be visible differences to the colour response to the same LED light. As I can see from some answers it's not as simple as swapping out the camera but also what OLPF was included in the comparison. My next thought as this was a colour test then if the cameras were compared bare (with no OLPF) then would I get exactly the same colour responses. I'm not completely sure I have that answer yet.

Jonathon Sendall
DP, London UK.


 

Jonathon,

I don’t think shooting any Red camera without a OLPF is really an option.  While physically it’s possible, the software doesn’t give you an option to select NO OLPF, so it’s going to be set to something (STD, SKIN, LLO) which would effect the calibration of the sensor and how it interprets color.  

Cheers,

Andrew Redd
Cinematographer 
Dallas - Los Angeles
972-935-2206

On Oct 18, 2019, at 6:58 AM, Jonathon Sendall <jpsendall@...> wrote:

Thanks to all who chipped in. All very helpful.

The reason I asked about colour differences is that I should be conducting a test with a particular light and calibration to a DXL2 was defined. However in the absence of the DXL2 and swapping it out to a Monstro I wanted to know if their would be visible differences to the colour response to the same LED light. As I can see from some answers it's not as simple as swapping out the camera but also what OLPF was included in the comparison. My next thought as this was a colour test then if the cameras were compared bare (with no OLPF) then would I get exactly the same colour responses. I'm not completely sure I have that answer yet.

Jonathon Sendall
DP, London UK.


Jonathon Sendall
 

Hi Andrew, it wasn't about a finished product in terms of footage, it was about seeing whether there was any colour difference between two cameras that have the same sensor but possibly something going on that changes the DXL2 colour. It wasn't a plan to go out and shoot without a OLPF although it may have sounded like it.

Jonathon Sendall
DP, London UK


Philip Holland
 

Hi Jonathan,

I have gone to both sources for the answer you seek.

All things equal in terms of OLPF used, the RED Monstro and Panavision DXL2 will create the same image.

This is also seen on many of the productions that use DXL2 bodies and utilize the smaller RED Monstro bodies for gimbal, drone, etc....

Panavision's efforts manifest in their LUT/Color Science as well as the few productions that ever use their OLPF.  Most of the DXL2 productions actually use the Low Light OLPF due to the lower noise floor/cleanest image possible across all ISO ratings.  And of course the body design.

I personally mainly use the Standard and Skin Tone - Highlight OLPF.

Hope that helps,

Phil

-----------------
Phil Holland - Cinematographer
http://www.phfx.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0390802/
818 470 0623


From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> on behalf of Jonathon Sendall via Cml.News <jpsendall=gmail.com@...>
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2019 9:41 AM
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...>
Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] DXL Millennium and 8K Monstro
 
Hi Andrew, it wasn't about a finished product in terms of footage, it was about seeing whether there was any colour difference between two cameras that have the same sensor but possibly something going on that changes the DXL2 colour. It wasn't a plan to go out and shoot without a OLPF although it may have sounded like it.

Jonathon Sendall
DP, London UK


Jonathon Sendall
 

Thanks Phil

Jonathon Sendall
DP, London UK