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Integrity - was Curves and Bit Depth


Pawel Achtel, ACS
 

Ø  [Brian Heller] - As David Watkin said: “If they paid me to, I would shoot with the lens cap on.”

Ø   

Ø  Of course, RAW is theoretically “better”, but so what.  For instance,

Ø   if the optics are not 1st rate, all the data in the world isn’t going to help.

I read some of those comments with great sadness. Is this how low our industry has gone?

Not only are those comments completely irrelevant to discussion about pros and cons of Sigma fp (both technical and practical), but also highlight that often the biggest limitation of all is the attitude that people have towards their work.

Integrity is important. And, yes, I have declined many jobs which insisted on constraints that would result in an outcome that I wouldn’t be proud of.

There were also productions that were happy for me to shoot with a GoPro - I turned up on the set with a top-of-the-range setup at no additional charge and put as much effort as I would, if it was a hundred million dollar production.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc.

“Sharp to the Edge”

 

ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417

Website: www.achtel.com

Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747)

Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia

Address: RA 913 Coles Bay Rd., Coles Bay, TAS 7215, Australia

Location: S 42° 0'14.40"S, E 148°14'47.13"

Email: Pawel.Achtel@...

Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel

Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel

Skype: Pawel.Achtel

,_


Mitch Gross
 

On Dec 29, 2020, at 1:03 AM, Pawel Achtel ACS <pawel.achtel@...> wrote:

often the biggest limitation of all is the attitude that people have towards their work


It’s not that we don’t all want to do our very best work, it’s that we have to perform within a system with others. There can be completely justifiable reasons (such as time) that a client or post does not want to work one way and prefers to work another. We all have to work together.

Hey, I’d like to only shoot during magic hour. Three shots a day in my perfect light. Sorry but your one day shoot is going to take a week because I’m unwilling to compromise my artistic integrity.

We all make choices when appropriate. Shooting uncompressed RAW is lovely but often not necessary.


Mitch Gross
New York


Adrian Jebef
 

MG that's like the best way to say, " Nestor Almendros is a great DP.....  but.....  I'm not that guy. "


Yo that was like 40-some-fing-years-ago when NesAlm told Brackman + Schneider (cubed) that he was gonna shoot the entire picture at sunrise and sunset cause that's why he showed up in the first place. From what I hear, and I head that from the fourth source, Nessy Dross flat out laid down his PLAN in front of ALL dem old farts during PrePro. He done SLAPP'D his book on the table and turned to page WE'RE DOIMG IT TIS WAY CAUSE ME AND MALICKY WANT TO. The bts picture I hass shows ALL deez olwhite dude mouth on da floor jus STARING in dezbelieef. BUT sneaky NSTOR-ALME jus smile and gently REVEAL his intent. Itz da frickn   - W O R K F L O W -   y'all. 

Damn

Yeah

Damn

I heard that shit was HARD.

But people seem to remember it. Which is nice.



Adrian Jebef
camera intern









On Monday, December 28, 2020, 10:49:42 PM PST, Mitch Gross <mitchgrosscml@...> wrote:


On Dec 29, 2020, at 1:03 AM, Pawel Achtel ACS <pawel.achtel@...> wrote:

often the biggest limitation of all is the attitude that people have towards their work


It’s not that we don’t all want to do our very best work, it’s that we have to perform within a system with others. There can be completely justifiable reasons (such as time) that a client or post does not want to work one way and prefers to work another. We all have to work together.

Hey, I’d like to only shoot during magic hour. Three shots a day in my perfect light. Sorry but your one day shoot is going to take a week because I’m unwilling to compromise my artistic integrity.

We all make choices when appropriate. Shooting uncompressed RAW is lovely but often not necessary.


Mitch Gross
New York


Mitch Gross
 

It would be nice if you replied using actual words. 

Of course I chose that example for a reason. Because it was appropriate for that film and they had the budget and schedule to do it. Just as Field of Dreams, Like Water for Chocolate, and numerous others. But it’s not appropriate for all shoots which was my point. 

I do haves the knowin’ of a lot of things. Please actually read what is written and reply to what those words actually state rather than some partial twist thereof. If we are all to treat one another as professionals than we should act as such, which are in fact the basic rules of the CML. 


Mitch Gross
New York

On Dec 29, 2020, at 2:08 AM, Adrian Jebef via cml.news <adrianjebef=yahoo.com@...> wrote:


MG that's like the best way to say, " Nestor Almendros is a great DP.....  but.....  I'm not that guy. "


Yo that was like 40-some-fing-years-ago when NesAlm told Brackman + Schneider (cubed) that he was gonna shoot the entire picture at sunrise and sunset cause that's why he showed up in the first place. From what I hear, and I head that from the fourth source, Nessy Dross flat out laid down his PLAN in front of ALL dem old farts during PrePro. He done SLAPP'D his book on the table and turned to page WE'RE DOIMG IT TIS WAY CAUSE ME AND MALICKY WANT TO. The bts picture I hass shows ALL deez olwhite dude mouth on da floor jus STARING in dezbelieef. BUT sneaky NSTOR-ALME jus smile and gently REVEAL his intent. Itz da frickn   - W O R K F L O W -   y'all. 

Damn

Yeah

Damn

I heard that shit was HARD.

But people seem to remember it. Which is nice.



Adrian Jebef
camera intern









On Monday, December 28, 2020, 10:49:42 PM PST, Mitch Gross <mitchgrosscml@...> wrote:


On Dec 29, 2020, at 1:03 AM, Pawel Achtel ACS <pawel.achtel@...> wrote:

often the biggest limitation of all is the attitude that people have towards their work


It’s not that we don’t all want to do our very best work, it’s that we have to perform within a system with others. There can be completely justifiable reasons (such as time) that a client or post does not want to work one way and prefers to work another. We all have to work together.

Hey, I’d like to only shoot during magic hour. Three shots a day in my perfect light. Sorry but your one day shoot is going to take a week because I’m unwilling to compromise my artistic integrity.

We all make choices when appropriate. Shooting uncompressed RAW is lovely but often not necessary.


Mitch Gross
New York


Maxwell Geoffrey
 

Pawel,

     I don't think anyone here is actually advocating for working in a manner in which one must sacrifice their integrity just for the sake of getting paid or getting a job done, and I'm sure if we all owned our favorite cameras we'd happily shoot with them whenever we could.  Your goal with your work may be to capture images that are of the absolute highest technical quality and - as you sign your messages - "sharp to the edge".  There's nothing wrong with that, and if you can find enough work that allows you to uphold those values on every project you do, then that's great.  Frankly however, different things matter to different people, and if being able to work on a project you're passionate about means having to shoot in a compressed format, RAW or not, then so be it.  The reason for such a compromise may stem from the need for a fast turnaround on a project or to spend less time on set backing everything up, it might be because that's what works for everyone involved in the post production pipeline on a project, or it may be as simple as being on location with a limited number of cards and needing to make sure the director can get all the shots they want.  These problems are dealt with on productions of all budget sizes, so it's up to the DP to know whether or not the final image will actually suffer to a point where it isn't usable anymore.  That being said, for the vast majority of us, choosing one recording format over another or even one camera over another is by no means sacrificing our integrity.
     If anything, the widespread trend of DPs shooting with vintage or anamorphic lenses should be enough evidence that shooting images which are "sharp to the edge" just isn't a priority for all of us.  It doesn't mean we aren't aware of the technicalities of our craft, but why should someone turn down shooting with a particular lens just because it has a poor MTF?  If it makes the image they want, one that feels right for the particular project, isn't turning it down just because a graph says it's technically not as good as something else also sacrificing their integrity?  Film is an art form, and no matter how insanely technical its crafts may be, what ultimately matters is how the audience feels when watching it.  If you want things to feel as if they were captured flawlessly, thats fine, but if you want them to feel less technically perfect, that's fine too.  As Geoff often says, "fuck the numbers".  Just make images which work for whatever it is that you're trying to do.

Best Wishes,

Maxwell Geoffrey
DP | Colorist
New York


Geoff Boyle
 

Hey, I’d like to only shoot during magic hour. Three shots a day in my perfect light. Sorry but your one day shoot is going to take a week because I’m unwilling to compromise my artistic integrity.

 

The commercial linked below had a $1.5M budget allowing for inflation, it was shot in ’95.

We had the luxury of doing the same shot at dawn for 4 days.

We had a Wescam, a Louma, an underwater unit and 2 “normal” cameras.

Not many jobs are like that, I was lucky enough to do quite a few.

https://gboyle.nl/BA%20QT.HTM

 

You do the best you can with what you’ve got, 4 years later I experimented with shooting handheld out of a helicopter using an 11.25 degree shutter and scanning at 2K for a SD finish and adding motion blur. I never used Wescam again. Technology changes and we change with it.

Today my neighbour with his drone could do better.

 

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076

www.gboyle.nl

www.cinematography.net

Become a CML Patron https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=43292735

 

 


Jonathon Sendall
 

"MG that's like the best way to say, " Nestor Almendros is a great DP.....  but.....  I'm not that guy. "
 
 
Yo that was like 40-some-fing-years-ago when NesAlm told Brackman + Schneider (cubed) that he was gonna shoot the entire picture at sunrise and sunset cause that's why he showed up in the first place. From what I hear, and I head that from the fourth source, Nessy Dross flat out laid down his PLAN in front of ALL dem old farts during PrePro. He done SLAPP'D his book on the table and turned to page WE'RE DOIMG IT TIS WAY CAUSE ME AND MALICKY WANT TO. The bts picture I hass shows ALL deez olwhite dude mouth on da floor jus STARING in dezbelieef. BUT sneaky NSTOR-ALME jus smile and gently REVEAL his intent. Itz da frickn   - W O R K F L O W -   y'all. 
 
Damn
 
Yeah
 
Damn
 
I heard that shit was HARD.
 
But people seem to remember it. Which is nice.
 
 
 
Adrian Jebef
camera intern"

Well old chap, (sorry old fart lingo), Zsigmond and Cimino make a nice little movie called "Heavens Gate", looked beautiful, can't fault the images, much of it shot at magic hour. Unfortunately it sank the studio, but hey who cares about the studio, I mean they only pay your wages and release your "bootifull" images. And Mitch is right, try to use actual English, not because it's the right thing to do but because you might be misunderstood and we wouldn't want that. Go on give it a shot . . . bro  ;0)

Jonathon Sendall
DP, London UK


Pedro Emauz
 

Hey Adrian, 
It's good to remember this is an international forum and that there are a lot of us who don't speak or write in English as our first language, and don't understand a word of the slang you wrote. 
Best,

Pedro Emauz
DP
Lisbon Portugal
Sent from my phone

On 29 Dec 2020, at 07:08, Adrian Jebef via cml.news <adrianjebef=yahoo.com@...> wrote:

MG that's like the best way to say, " Nestor Almendros is a great DP.....  but.....  I'm not that guy. "


Yo that was like 40-some-fing-years-ago when NesAlm told Brackman + Schneider (cubed) that he was gonna shoot the entire picture at sunrise and sunset cause that's why he showed up in the first place. From what I hear, and I head that from the fourth source, Nessy Dross flat out laid down his PLAN in front of ALL dem old farts during PrePro. He done SLAPP'D his book on the table and turned to page WE'RE DOIMG IT TIS WAY CAUSE ME AND MALICKY WANT TO. The bts picture I hass shows ALL deez olwhite dude mouth on da floor jus STARING in dezbelieef. BUT sneaky NSTOR-ALME jus smile and gently REVEAL his intent. Itz da frickn   - W O R K F L O W -   y'all. 

Damn

Yeah

Damn

I heard that shit was HARD.

But people seem to remember it. Which is nice.



Adrian Jebef
camera intern









On Monday, December 28, 2020, 10:49:42 PM PST, Mitch Gross <mitchgrosscml@...> wrote:


On Dec 29, 2020, at 1:03 AM, Pawel Achtel ACS <pawel.achtel@...> wrote:

often the biggest limitation of all is the attitude that people have towards their work


It’s not that we don’t all want to do our very best work, it’s that we have to perform within a system with others. There can be completely justifiable reasons (such as time) that a client or post does not want to work one way and prefers to work another. We all have to work together.

Hey, I’d like to only shoot during magic hour. Three shots a day in my perfect light. Sorry but your one day shoot is going to take a week because I’m unwilling to compromise my artistic integrity.

We all make choices when appropriate. Shooting uncompressed RAW is lovely but often not necessary.


Mitch Gross
New York


Noel Sterrett
 

On 12/29/20 8:36 AM, Pedro Emauz via cml.news wrote:
don't understand a word of the slang you wrote.
"Slang" is much too kind a word.

Really Geoff?


Geoff Boyle
 

It's OK Pedro, I'm English and I didn't understand a word.

Cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS
EU based cinematographer


Geoff Boyle
 

Already dealt with it, permanent approval...

Cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS
EU based cinematographer


Brian Heller
 

A thankless task, but one for which I, for one, am ever grateful.

Brian Heller
IA 600 DP

On Dec 29, 2020, at 9:51 AM, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:


Already dealt with it, permanent approval...

Cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS
EU based cinematographer


Noel Sterrett
 

+2

On 12/29/20 10:11 AM, Brian Heller wrote:
A thankless task, but one for which I, for one, am ever grateful.


Clark Graff
 

HA HA HA HA HA!!!!

 

MG you da bomb!

(I’ve never actually said that before, feels odd, however it seems appropriate)

 

“It would be nice if you replied using actual words.” 

 

 

Clark Graff

VFX Supervisor, Production Designer, DIT, Propellerhead

SoCal


Colin Elves
 

Some of us prefer to communicate with pictures for example:

Oh, look, a young person with creative integrity.



Colin Elves
Director of Photography
Brussels


 

“It would be nice if you replied using actual words.” 

 



Mark Weingartner, ASC
 

While this has been an amusing thread, I would respectfully submit that we have covered the topic and that the signal-to-noise ratio of this discussion is unlikely to improve.

Without rummaging around and digging out my Listmum hat, I recommend that in the spirit of Good Will and with hopes for a better New Year for us and the societies we live in (and pay annual dues to) we give this topic a rest.

Integrity is always worth talking about - not limited to Raw-log-hdr areas of technical discussion.

Let’s give it a rest, please.

I’m asking this time :-)


Don’t forget, if you have a little extra pocket money floating around as the year draws to a close, CML’s sponsors have not been as forthcoming in this hard year as usual, and a little extra to the CML cause at this time of year would not be wasted.


Best Wishes!

Mark Weingartner, ASC
Woodland Hills, CA
DP, VFX


Brian Heller
 

Lighten up, Pawel.  We are not curing cancer.
 
Brian Heller
IA 600 DP


On Dec 29, 2020, at 1:06 AM, Pawel Achtel ACS <pawel.achtel@...> wrote:



Ø  [Brian Heller] - As David Watkin said: “If they paid me to, I would shoot with the lens cap on.”

Ø   

Ø  Of course, RAW is theoretically “better”, but so what.  For instance,

Ø   if the optics are not 1st rate, all the data in the world isn’t going to help.

I read some of those comments with great sadness. Is this how low our industry has gone?

Not only are those comments completely irrelevant to discussion about pros and cons of Sigma fp (both technical and practical), but also highlight that often the biggest limitation of all is the attitude that people have towards their work.

Integrity is important. And, yes, I have declined many jobs which insisted on constraints that would result in an outcome that I wouldn’t be proud of.

There were also productions that were happy for me to shoot with a GoPro - I turned up on the set with a top-of-the-range setup at no additional charge and put as much effort as I would, if it was a hundred million dollar production.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc.

“Sharp to the Edge”

 

ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417

Website: www.achtel.com

Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747)

Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia

Address: RA 913 Coles Bay Rd., Coles Bay, TAS 7215, Australia

Location: S 42° 0'14.40"S, E 148°14'47.13"

Email: Pawel.Achtel@...

Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel

Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel

Skype: Pawel.Achtel

,_


Danny Gagatt
 

"Don’t forget, if you have a little extra pocket money floating around as the year draws to a close, CML’s sponsors have not been as forthcoming in this hard year as usual, and a little extra to the CML cause at this time of year would not be wasted." 

With regards to donations to CML, I use the Brave browser (Chrome engine). It's available on all platforms.

Outside of iOS, it allows you to nominate where the advertising revenue you generate over every month goes to (Apple did not like that idea, so it got the developers to omitted the feature on iOS). 

I privately suggested it to Geoff recently, but those who already use Brave, or choose to try it on the basis of how it's modelled, you can select how much can go to a website of your nomination. Cinematography.net can be one of them. It's just a suggestion. Typically over one month, I generate at least US$20.

You have to sign up to Uphold to be able to transfer the funds however. They are linked within the browser. But, they've been very slow to get people signed up recently.

Danny Gagatt
London

On Tue, 29 Dec 2020, 19:55 Mark Weingartner, ASC via cml.news, <vfxmark=me.com@...> wrote:
While this has been an amusing thread, I would respectfully submit that we have covered the topic and that the signal-to-noise ratio of this discussion is unlikely to improve.

Without rummaging around and digging out my Listmum hat, I recommend that in the spirit of Good Will and with hopes for a better New Year for us and the societies we live in (and pay annual dues to) we give this topic a rest.

Integrity is always worth talking about - not limited to Raw-log-hdr areas of technical discussion.

Let’s give it a rest, please.

I’m asking this time :-)


Don’t forget, if you have a little extra pocket money floating around as the year draws to a close, CML’s sponsors have not been as forthcoming in this hard year as usual, and a little extra to the CML cause at this time of year would not be wasted.


Best Wishes!

Mark Weingartner, ASC
Woodland Hills, CA
DP, VFX