Topics

Nastiness

Art Adams
 

I don't know what's happened to CML recently but this personal backstabbing needs to end.

Disagreements are fine. Illustrate how you think you are correct vs. how someone else is incorrect, but leave out any comments related to the other person's competency, intelligence, reasons for their getting it wrong, etc.

Make your case, defend it, let the readers decide. If you take it further, then as long as Geoff keeps me as a list mum I'm going to start putting people on appro.

In a recent exchange on, oh, let's just say it was about diffraction, one side was professional and direct, and the other side got personal. Both sides need to stay professional.

The best way to learn is to post something that's wrong and see what others have to say. Those others, however, must remain professional and polite. There's a tendency here to get snippy with people who don't have all the correct answers, and if we're going to punish each other for getting things wrong and then learning the correct answers then we might as well shut this whole thing down right now.

If you can't follow these guidelines then please go hang out in the Youtube comments section with the other adolescents.

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area

Ed David <ed.david@...>
 

I fully agree with you, Art.
I think quite simply, the political climate is (to not put it in nice terms) toxic.  This anger bleeds into social media, and how we interact with each other, over politics, and now, over everything - art, science, engineering.

We are in effect yelling and slanding complete strangers.

And this needs to end on CML, and other places to dork out on gear and other ideas.
 

ed david | cinematographer
WWW.EDDAVIDDP.COM   /   917.449.0739

Geoff Boyle
 

Approved doesn't seem to be working as well as it did with the last system.
Everything is much faster and it's easier to post.

I'm using locking topics more and more.

I've also blocked a few people from posting, they can still read but they just wouldn't listen and handling all the appros needed for them too too much time.

Be harsh Art, let people be firm/strong in their beliefs, always bearing in mind the personal experience caveat, but anyone who is personally offensive gets put on appro.

If in doubt lock the topic!

Cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
Cinematographer
EU based

Sent from Blue

On 2 Apr 2018, at 16:19, Art Adams <art.cml.only@...> wrote:
I don't know what's happened to CML recently but this personal backstabbing needs to end.

Disagreements are fine. Illustrate how you think you are correct vs. how someone else is incorrect, but leave out any comments related to the other person's competency, intelligence, reasons for their getting it wrong, etc.

Make your case, defend it, let the readers decide. If you take it further, then as long as Geoff keeps me as a list mum I'm going to start putting people on appro.

In a recent exchange on, oh, let's just say it was about diffraction, one side was professional and direct, and the other side got personal. Both sides need to stay professional.

The best way to learn is to post something that's wrong and see what others have to say. Those others, however, must remain professional and polite. There's a tendency here to get snippy with people who don't have all the correct answers, and if we're going to punish each other for getting things wrong and then learning the correct answers then we might as well shut this whole thing down right now.

If you can't follow these guidelines then please go hang out in the Youtube comments section with the other adolescents.

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area

Art Adams
 

Sounds good, Geoff. The sheriff has spoken, the deputies are on patrol.

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area

AManWithAMovieCameraLLc
 

I agree , I like the old CML where there was more attention paid (respect) to addressing the post not the poster.
its so awesome to share all of the experiences and viewpoints ... I typically learn as much (if not more) from the “in-correct”answers as I do from from the correct ones.... or as my Dad use to say: “Son you’re so far from the truth, you’re not even wrong”.

wistfully

Richard Roepnack
Local 600 DP

Brian Wengrofsky
 

A busy television DP I know recently told me he never posts on CML specifically due to this dynamic.

Brian Wengrofsky

Director of Photography

New York City



On 4/2/18 10:18 AM, Art Adams wrote:
I don't know what's happened to CML recently but this personal backstabbing needs to end.

Geoff Boyle
 

It's a difficult balance to keep.
I want to keep people who don't know what they're talking about out or at least discourage them from posting.
On the other hand I want to encourage people who do know.
This was fairly easy with a couple of hundred members but now we have nearly twelve thousand...
I guess that ultimately I have to be firmer and block more people from posting.
OK, if someone is put on appro and continues to be offensive I will block them.
They can appeal to admin@... to be unblocked.
I won't ban swearing, or the occasional outburst of frustration but personal attacks will not be tolerated.
Of course I'm not happy with people who post to the wrong lists. This topic belongs in general...

Cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
Cinematographer
EU based

Sent from Blue

On 2 Apr 2018, at 18:27, "Brian Wengrofsky via Cml.News" <bway.net@cml.news target=_blank>rooster=bway.net@cml.news> wrote:

A busy television DP I know recently told me he never posts on CML specifically due to this dynamic.

Brian Wengrofsky

Director of Photography

New York City



On 4/2/18 10:18 AM, Art Adams wrote:
I don't know what's happened to CML recently but this personal backstabbing needs to end.

Patrick Kaplin
 

I too, often think twice before posting, even when I am very familiar or experienced with the subject matter. I remember a post a long time ago discussing the direction of CML, and how the traffic volume had significantly reduced because of the shifting culture of CML. Sometimes it doesn’t seem worth posting if there is fear of ridicule. 

I’d like to see this forum remain a respectful exchange between industry professionals. Individuals should not be publicly shamed and rebuked for having the “incorrect” answers. That only limits the discussion and debate. Thank you Art and Geoff for noticing this and taking measures to rectify. 
--
Patrick Kaplin
Cinematographer
CANADA/THAILAND: +66656908055
www.patrickkaplin.com

Geoff Boyle
 

It's taking a while to learn the new software.

I've just discovered a setting that allows listmums, and maybe we should change that to moderator's, to instantly make every message addressed to a topic subject to approval.

That makes more work for moderator's but will slow a potentially explosive topic enough that the fire goes out.

Cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
Cinematographer
EU based

Sent from Blue

On 2 Apr 2018, at 19:00, Patrick Kaplin <patrick.kaplin@...> wrote:
I too, often think twice before posting, even when I am very familiar or experienced with the subject matter. I remember a post a long time ago discussing the direction of CML, and how the traffic volume had significantly reduced because of the shifting culture of CML. Sometimes it doesn’t seem worth posting if there is fear of ridicule. 

I’d like to see this forum remain a respectful exchange between industry professionals. Individuals should not be publicly shamed and rebuked for having the “incorrect” answers. That only limits the discussion and debate. Thank you Art and Geoff for noticing this and taking measures to rectify. 
--
Patrick Kaplin
Cinematographer
CANADA/THAILAND: +66656908055
www.patrickkaplin.com

Brian Heller
 

It might do us all well to review Paul Graham’s Hierarchy of Disagreement.

IA 600 DP

Wikipedia

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File:Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement.svg


Gavin Greenwalt
 

This irony is that in most of the technical-discussions-turned-nasty… the two parties have been fundamentally in agreement at the technical level, they’re just disagreeing on the semantics.  

Gavin Greenwalt
I Blame Linus Torvalds
Seattle, WA

Robert A. Ober
 

On 4/2/2018 12:04 PM, Brian Heller wrote:
It might do us all well to review Paul Graham’s Hierarchy of Disagreement.

____________________________

And perhaps Robert's Rules of Order:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert's_Rules_of_Order

Y'all take care,
Robert

Robert A. Ober
IT Consultant, Vidcaster, & Freelancer
www.infohou.com
Houston, TX


Art Adams
 

Or as one of my mentors said both on set and in his book (shameless plug: Jack Anderson, "How to Shoot Films Without Shooting Yourself in the Foot"), "I want you to learn from my mistakes so you can make new and more original mistakes."

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area