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New Red sensor.

Colin Elves
 

Oooh. Look. Red have a new sensor. And a new video featuring someone who doesn’t appear entirely comfortable with what they’ve been told to say.

image1.png

Slightly uncomfortable viewing for all!


Colin Elves
Director of Photography
London/Berlin

David Brillhart
 

The link doesn't go to the video.

David Brillhart
Cinematographer
Sacramento, CA

Philip Holland
 

RED Gemini.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcKPupoLtKM

This is an entirely new sensor design with dual sensitivity.


Phil


-----------------
Phil Holland - Cinematographer
http://www.phfx.com
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0390802/
818 470 0623


From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> on behalf of dave@... <dave@...>
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2018 3:54:02 PM
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@...
Subject: Re: [raw-log-hdr] New Red sensor.
 
The link doesn't go to the video.

David Brillhart
Cinematographer
Sacramento, CA

Colin Elves
 

Sorry David! It was late and I had already drunk a bottle of wine by that point. But Mr Holland found it for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcKPupoLtKM

I probably shouldn’t be so mean - but something about the guy’s body language in that video set me on edge. 

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
Berlin/London



On 26 Mar 2018, at 23:54, dave@... wrote:

The link doesn't go to the video.

David Brillhart
Cinematographer
Sacramento, CA
_._,_._,_

Colin Elves
 

Evidently I’m not the only person that had that reaction. 

image1.jpeg

I’m assuming the client noticed too - but by this point it was too late as they couldn’t get hold of another the camera for a reshoot. 

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
London/Berlin



On 27 Mar 2018, at 05:57, Colin Elves <colin@...> wrote:

Sorry David! It was late and I had already drunk a bottle of wine by that point. But Mr Holland found it for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcKPupoLtKM

I probably shouldn’t be so mean - but something about the guy’s body language in that video set me on edge. 

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
Berlin/London

Bob Kertesz
 

The person was identified as a "RED Tech", so not a professional actor unless out of work actors have gone from being waiters to being RED Techs.

The only thing that proves is that just like in every other part of a shoot, having a professional do the job gets better results than using whomever happens to be available. You would imagine RED would know better, although I've seen other big time manufacturers make the same mistake.

Why, there's even a rumor going around that I was caught talking about Sony pro OLEDs on camera, in footage that's been shown at a bunch of trade shows. If there's a worse on-camera presenter than me, I have yet to see it.

-Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California

DIT, Video Controller, and live compositor extraordinaire.

High quality images for more than four decades - whether you've wanted them or not.©

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On 3/26/2018 10:02 PM, Colin Elves wrote:
Evidently I’m not the only person that had that reaction. 

image1.jpeg

I’m assuming the client noticed too - but by this point it was too late as they couldn’t get hold of another the camera for a reshoot. 

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
London/Berlin



On 27 Mar 2018, at 05:57, Colin Elves <colin@...> wrote:

Sorry David! It was late and I had already drunk a bottle of wine by that point. But Mr Holland found it for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcKPupoLtKM

I probably shouldn’t be so mean - but something about the guy’s body language in that video set me on edge. 

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
Berlin/London


Art Adams
 

The "looking off camera" thing was probably just looking at notes. I've seen worse presenters, and I thought he generally presented well. I've seen CEOs of large companies do much worse.

I'm interested in the bit where low light mode clips two stops lower than normal mode. Any thoughts on why that is?

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area

Alexander Ibrahim
 

Art,

I’d guess that along with shifting to the new exposure the exposure range is shifted towards the shadows. 

The total dynamic range is stated to be 1/2 stop less than in normal mode, so it follows that we are seeing 1.5 stops further in underexposure. 

Alternatively, you could think of it as rating the camera in dark mode as 3/4 stop under the label, so 1600 instead of 2500...

Keyword: guess

Alexander Ibrahim
Sent from my mobile phone. 
Please excuse typos and brevity. 

On Mar 27, 2018, at 10:03, Art Adams <art.cml.only@...> wrote:

The "looking off camera" thing was probably just looking at notes. I've seen worse presenters, and I thought he generally presented well. I've seen CEOs of large companies do much worse.

I'm interested in the bit where low light mode clips two stops lower than normal mode. Any thoughts on why that is?

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area

Alex Metcalfe DoP
 

The "looking off camera" thing

And a kind editor could have covered a lot of those looks. I'm a RED Dragon owner, didn't upgrade to the Helium as it really doesn't offer anything that our clients were asking for. This new sensor is interesting and would offer real benefits. Also interested in the two stop lower clipping. They state that this is not an iso thing so camera presumably still factory rated at 800, you lose half a stop of dynamic range so does that mean that the highlights are clipping at 2.5 stops under what they would clip at in standard mode? That might limit some of the usefulness if, for instance, you have practicals in shot - candles, streetlamps etc as you'd be stopping down to hold those in range anyway. However the ability to safely use higher iso's with just a menu control would be great.


Alex Metcalfe
DoP UK
alexmetcalfedop.co.uk

-- 
Alex Metcalfe DoP
00 44 (0) 7785 557611
www.alexmetcalfedop.co.uk

Gavin Greenwalt
 

“They state that this is not an iso thing so camera presumably still factory rated at 800”

No, it sounds like they are stating that it’s not a RAW ISO thing that can be changed in the debayer, it’s an analog gain in the sensor itself.  So you can’t undo it in RAW later.   “2 stops lower clipping” means it’s about 2 stops faster so presumably 2400-3200 factory ISO (with the half stop of lost dynamic range on the bottom). 

Gavin Greenwalt
VFX Supervisor & Occasional Reducator
Seattle, WA

Colin Elves
 

Yes yes. I know I’m just being a mean spirited arsehole to the poor guy in the video. But as others have pointed out he was shafted by others and not by me. 

The director or producer should’ve made sure he got through those sections without looking away because any of us who have done these jobs realise this is a big no no because it makes you look shifty. 

And after that the editor should’ve cut round the looks away. 

And after that the comms team should’ve looked at that and gone ‘oh. No. We can’t send that out’.

Red are a goddam camera company. And if that guy is a ‘red tech’ then he works for them. There isn’t really an excuse for them to have not done this properly because it would be super easy to reshoot the whole thing (it’s one shot! They MAKE cameras)

The whole thing SCREAMED ‘we don’t give a shit about this camera’. And if they don’t care...

But anyway... let’s get the thing out in the wild and see how this new dual gain works and if it’s worth the trouble.

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
Berlin/London



On 27 Mar 2018, at 17:48, Gavin Greenwalt <im.thatoneguy@...> wrote:


No, it sounds like they are stating that it’s not a RAW ISO thing that can be changed in the debayer, it’s an analog gain in the sensor itself.  So you can’t undo it in RAW later.   “2 stops lower clipping” means it’s about 2 stops faster so presumably 2400-3200 factory ISO (with the half stop of lost dynamic range on the bottom). 

Art Adams
 

Camera companies have been known to make some of the most awful videos. Red is not alone. In fact, this video looked better than some that I've seen from more prominent companies. I've seen much worse.

Sometimes I look at NAB camera demos and wonder, "What were they thinking?"

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area

Colin Elves
 

Maybe I’m being unduly harsh on them. But I was quite drunk and found it hilariously bad. 

Still, it’s nice they decided to call one of their cameras by a name that doesn’t sound like something Donald Trump would use to refer to his penis.

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
Berlin/London

On 27 Mar 2018, at 21:06, Art Adams <art.cml.only@...> wrote:

Camera companies have been known to make some of the most awful videos. Red is not alone. In fact, this video looked better than some that I've seen from more prominent companies. I've seen much worse.

Sometimes I look at NAB camera demos and wonder, "What were they thinking?"

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area

Rodrigo Lizana Lamarca
 



On Mar 27, 2018, at 5:06 PM, Art Adams <art.cml.only@...> wrote:

Sometimes I look at NAB camera demos and wonder, "What were they thinking?"


Agree 100%.   Always pretty much the same.  Indoor girl dancing.    Give images where I can see the glories of nature.     Outdoors, with its magnificent wide gamut of colours and tones.     Let me see the sky, how hilights roll off in there.  Then put humans on it and please for once don´t make it dance !!!.     Freefly has very nice videos and Arri too.   There´s a Red one from a guy Toia or something that I liked a lot.   But pretty much the dancing girl everywhere else.

Regards



Rodrigo Lizana Lamarca
Pixine Ltda.
Santiago
Chile







George Hupka
 

Sounds interesting but even though I'm a Red owner, I'm pretty skeptical of low noise claims coming from Red.   I seem to recall that Dragon was supposed to be incredibly clean at high ISOs....
--
----------
George Hupka
Director/DP
Saskatoon, Canada
Listmum, Cinematography Mailing List

Colin Elves
 

Could be worse. There were pole dancers at one Panasonic EVA1 launch event organised by a reseller. 

Understandably Panasonic were not amused by this. 

Although they did indeed have ‘standard female dancer marketing video’. But also one shot by a female cinematographer. So... maybe that redressed the balance?  

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
Berlin/London


On 27 Mar 2018, at 21:21, Rodrigo Lizana Lamarca <rlizana@...> wrote:



On Mar 27, 2018, at 5:06 PM, Art Adams <art.cml.only@...> wrote:

Sometimes I look at NAB camera demos and wonder, "What were they thinking?"


Agree 100%.   Always pretty much the same.  Indoor girl dancing.    Give images where I can see the glories of nature.     Outdoors, with its magnificent wide gamut of colours and tones.     Let me see the sky, how hilights roll off in there.  Then put humans on it and please for once don´t make it dance !!!.     Freefly has very nice videos and Arri too.   There´s a Red one from a guy Toia or something that I liked a lot.   But pretty much the dancing girl everywhere else.

David Fuller
 

…and I’m sure the “redressed” pun was intentional...

David Fuller
Director, Cinematographer, Camera Geek
Maine, USA

---

On Mar 28, 2018, at 3:39 PM, Colin Elves <colin@...> wrote:

Could be worse. There were pole dancers at one Panasonic EVA1 launch event organised by a reseller. 

Understandably Panasonic were not amused by this. 

Although they did indeed have ‘standard female dancer marketing video’. But also one shot by a female cinematographer. So... maybe that redressed the balance?  

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
Berlin/London


On 27 Mar 2018, at 21:21, Rodrigo Lizana Lamarca <rlizana@...> wrote:



On Mar 27, 2018, at 5:06 PM, Art Adams <art.cml.only@...> wrote:

Sometimes I look at NAB camera demos and wonder, "What were they thinking?"


Agree 100%.   Always pretty much the same.  Indoor girl dancing.    Give images where I can see the glories of nature.     Outdoors, with its magnificent wide gamut of colours and tones.     Let me see the sky, how hilights roll off in there.  Then put humans on it and please for once don´t make it dance !!!.     Freefly has very nice videos and Arri too.   There´s a Red one from a guy Toia or something that I liked a lot.   But pretty much the dancing girl everywhere else.

Colin Elves
 

I’m pretty sure I’m only ever amusing by accident. 

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
Berlin/London

On 28 Mar 2018, at 20:42, David Fuller <david@...> wrote:

…and I’m sure the “redressed” pun was intentional...

David Fuller
Director, Cinematographer, Camera Geek
Maine, USA

---

On Mar 28, 2018, at 3:39 PM, Colin Elves <colin@...> wrote:

Could be worse. There were pole dancers at one Panasonic EVA1 launch event organised by a reseller. 

Understandably Panasonic were not amused by this. 

Although they did indeed have ‘standard female dancer marketing video’. But also one shot by a female cinematographer. So... maybe that redressed the balance?  

Colin Elves
Director of Photography
Berlin/London


On 27 Mar 2018, at 21:21, Rodrigo Lizana Lamarca <rlizana@...> wrote:



On Mar 27, 2018, at 5:06 PM, Art Adams <art.cml.only@...> wrote:

Sometimes I look at NAB camera demos and wonder, "What were they thinking?"


Agree 100%.   Always pretty much the same.  Indoor girl dancing.    Give images where I can see the glories of nature.     Outdoors, with its magnificent wide gamut of colours and tones.     Let me see the sky, how hilights roll off in there.  Then put humans on it and please for once don´t make it dance !!!.     Freefly has very nice videos and Arri too.   There´s a Red one from a guy Toia or something that I liked a lot.   But pretty much the dancing girl everywhere else.


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