ORIGINAL Alexa Rec709 LUT?
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Mark Kenfield
Hey everyone, I have a vague recollection that the original Rec709 LUT for the Alexa was updated at some point. And now have a director who's insisting on using the original version that Arri created on the Mini (which only has the new version). Google's not proved very useful on the topic, so I'm wondering if anyone has the old LUT filed away somewhere and could send it to me please?
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Mark Kenfield
Nevermind. A fresh (and in hindsight, bloody obvious) combination of search terms yielded this: https://www.arri.com/en/learn-help/learn-help-camera-system/tools/lut-generator
On Sun, 24 Feb 2019 at 00:07, Mark Kenfield <mark@...> wrote:
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It's really interesting that they are recommending 200 nits for hdr instead of the 100 we usually work to. This matches my own preference which came just from looking at a monitor and finding that it always looked better in hdr if I opened up a stop.
On Sat, 23 Feb 2019, 14:17 Mark Kenfield, <mark@...> wrote:
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alister@...
On 23 Feb 2019, at 13:34, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote: It's really interesting that they are recommending 200 nits for hdr instead of the 100 we usually work to. Perhaps this is because the “standard” for SDR also calls for 100 NITS but the reality is that as the majority of modern SDR TV’s and uncalibrated monitors reproduce white much brighter than this, so 100 NITS on an HDR monitor/TV tends to look rather dim in comparison.
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>Google's not proved very useful on the topic, so I'm wondering if anyone has the old LUT filed away somewhere and could send it to me please?
It’s built in to every ARRI camera as “ARRI Classic 709.” It’s in there to match an LF, SXT, Amira or Mini to an XT or EV. It’s in the Mini color menu.
It’s just a 1D LUT. Starting with the Amira and Mini, which added the necessary processing power, it became a 3D LUT. The biggest difference is that red is a little less saturated. This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet. This email has been scanned for email related threats and delivered safely by Mimecast. For more information please visit http://www.mimecast.com
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>It's really interesting that they are recommending 200 nits for hdr instead of the 100 we usually work to.
100 nits is the 709 studio monitor standard, but consumer TVs have been brighter than that for a long time. When HDR diffuse white was initially defined to match the 709 studio standard, consumers complained. Hence, diffuse white is now 200 nits.
Art Adams Cinema Lens Specialist
Our Burbank office is moving! As of Monday, March 4th you’ll find us at 3700 Vanowen Street, Burbank, CA 91505.
ARRI Inc.
Get all the latest information from www.arri.com, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube.
This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet. This email has been scanned for email related threats and delivered safely by Mimecast. For more information please visit http://www.mimecast.com
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Nick Shaw
On 23 Feb 2019, at 18:42, Art Adams <aadams@...> wrote:The legacy ARRI LUT is more than just a 1D LUT. It is effectively two 1D LUTs with a 3x3 matrix between them. But it is true that it is not as nuanced as what is possible with the 3D LUT processing in ALF2. Nick Shaw Antler Post UK
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Joseph Goldstone <jgoldstone@...>
"And now have a director who's insisting on using the original version that Arri created on the Mini (which only has the new version)."
Well, no. Look at the simulator: https://www.arri.com/en/learn-help/learn-help-camera-system/tools/camera-simulators/alexa-mini-camera-simulator From the home screen: Click on the Look button (bottom middle) Click the menu wheel (at left) to edit the look Scroll one item down, from “ARRI 709” to “ALEXA Classic 709” Click the menu wheel again to set the look to “ALEXA Classic 709” Click the home button again It’s true the look field says “LOOK: ALEXA Cla…” instead of “LOOK: ALEXA Classic” but there’s only so much screen real estate. Hope this is helpful. —Joseph Joseph Goldstone Image Science Engineer ARRI Inc. (Strategic Business Development) / ARRI Cine Technik (Image Science) This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet. This email has been scanned for email related threats and delivered safely by Mimecast. For more information please visit http://www.mimecast.com
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Joseph Goldstone <jgoldstone@...>
Bingo. This is indeed why we provide a 200-nit option. Nits, BTW, not NITS (pardon my lapse into pedantry).
But yeah. I am sometimes vilified for saying this, but having all those reference monitors out there perfectly calibrated to have a 100-nit peak luminance means that they are all exactly the same large distance in peak luminance from the average consumer
display. I think I looked on Amazon a couple years back to see the dimmest display I could order, not exhaustively going through the thousand possible displays to buy, but just staying with the 10 most popular, and the minimal brightness, where it was either
stated or available on a review site, was at least 250 nits at peak.
—Joseph
Joseph Goldstone Image Science Engineer ARRI Inc. (Strategic Business Development) / ARRI Cine Technik (Image Science) This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet. This email has been scanned for email related threats and delivered safely by Mimecast. For more information please visit http://www.mimecast.com
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It doesn’t matter what people set their home TV’s to Alister, what matters is what the standard is for grading.
We are not judged on what the picture looks like with the chroma cranked right up, motion compensation at max, contrast at max, HDR simulation (yes that is a setting) set to max.
We are judged by the images in the grade, or in a more cynical world what they look like compressed to hell on an iPad.
From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> On Behalf Of alister@...
Sent: 23 February 2019 14:59 To: cml-raw-log-hdr@... Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] ORIGINAL Alexa Rec709 LUT?
On 23 Feb 2019, at 13:34, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:
Perhaps this is because the “standard” for SDR also calls for 100 NITS but the reality is that as the majority of modern SDR TV’s and uncalibrated monitors reproduce white much brighter than this, so 100 NITS on an HDR monitor/TV tends to look rather dim in comparison.
www.xdcam-user.com 1.5 million hits, 100,000 visits from over 45,000 unique visitors every month! Film and Video production techniques, reviews and news.
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>It doesn’t matter what people set their home TV’s to Alister, what matters is what the standard is for grading.
No, this matters quite a lot.
Consumers aren’t setting their TVs to 200 nits. They show up that way. Manufacturers have figured out that brighter TVs sell better. Consumers have no idea what the nit value is. Given the choice, they generally choose the brighter setting anyway. (I’ve worked with many directors who make the same choice.)
The reason we now grade HDR to 200 nits is precisely because of how manufacturers are shipping TVs, not how consumers are setting them. The grading standard has adapted to follow retail sales techniques.
Art Adams Cinema Lens Specialist
Our Burbank office is moving! As of Monday, March 4th you’ll find us at 3700 Vanowen Street, Burbank, CA 91505.
ARRI Inc.
Get all the latest information from www.arri.com, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube.
This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet. This email has been scanned for email related threats and delivered safely by Mimecast. For more information please visit http://www.mimecast.com
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Geoff Boyle
I’ll repeat, I don’t get hired by consumers.
The pictures, and standards, that matter are those in the grading suite etc.
Is this wrong? Of course it is!
Should we change the standards? Of course we should!
SDR and HDR are different animals, if we start grading SDR to 200 where do we go with HDR?
HLG on a display is very different to PQ, it can look similar and is much easier in a lot of ways.
I find this a hugely frustrating topic as I’m limited by NDA’s covering a lot of the work that I’ve done with broadcasters in the last few years. The results of that work have been very clear, people prefer brighter images by a huge margin.
Show a producer/Director a TV series/Drama that they shot for SDR and that you have regraded to HDR as a side by side demo and they ask what is wrong with the image on the left. That’s the untouched master of their work that was transmitted last year…
My presentation at IBC last year clearly showed that people immediately see the difference and prefer the brighter image with more contrast whilst not noticing some quite large resolution changes.
From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> On Behalf Of Art Adams
Sent: 24 February 2019 08:50 To: cml-raw-log-hdr@... Subject: [cml-raw-log-hdr] ORIGINAL Alexa Rec709 LUT?
>It doesn’t matter what people set their home TV’s to Alister, what matters is what the standard is for grading.
No, this matters quite a lot.
Consumers aren’t setting their TVs to 200 nits. They show up that way. Manufacturers have figured out that brighter TVs sell better. Consumers have no idea what the nit value is. Given the choice, they generally choose the brighter setting anyway. (I’ve worked with many directors who make the same choice.)
The reason we now grade HDR to 200 nits is precisely because of how manufacturers are shipping TVs, not how consumers are setting them. The grading standard has adapted to follow retail sales techniques.
Art Adams Cinema Lens Specialist
Our Burbank office is moving! As of Monday, March 4th you’ll find us at 3700 Vanowen Street, Burbank, CA 91505.
ARRI Inc.
Get all the latest information from www.arri.com, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube.
This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet.
This email has been scanned for email related threats and delivered safely by Mimecast.
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alister@...
On 24 Feb 2019, at 07:06, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote: It doesn’t matter what people set their home TV’s to Alister, what matters is what the standard is for grading. We are not judged on what the picture looks like with the chroma cranked right up, motion compensation at max, contrast at max, HDR simulation (yes that is a setting) set to max. We are judged by the images in the grade, or in a more cynical world what they look like compressed to hell on an iPad. But surely, with virtually no consumer device displaying white at 100 Nits anymore, grading to a calibrated 100 Nit monitor means that the only people that will ever see the image anywhere near close to as intended are the handful of people that get to see the production in a nice dark and correctly calibrated grading suite. Everyone else will be seeing something that looks different to the colourists intentions and that defeats the object of a 100 Nit calibrated display. Those 100 Nit displays are just widening the gap between what the audience see’s and what the colourist intended. I know it shouldn’t be like this, but it is. Really I think we need to match the grading suite display to real world audience displays rather than sticking with what is now a completely out of touch with modern TV reality 100 Nit white. The only displays that are 100 Nit white are the grading suite monitors. Everything else is 200-300 Nits. It’s a mess, it’s not how I was told to do things, but it’s almost impossible to get a consumer TV to only put white at 100 Nits.
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Mako Koiwai <mako1foto@...>
A proper grading environment should always include a consumer monitor for a reality check. Makofoto, s. pasadena, ca
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Geoff Boyle
Absolutely Alister but that’s the reality of the world we live in.
Crazy? yes, Wrong? yes, yet another example of the fact that we live in an environment that cares more for numbers than pictures.
From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> On Behalf Of alister@... But surely, with virtually no consumer device displaying white at 100 Nits anymore, grading to a calibrated 100 Nit monitor means that the only people that will ever see the image anywhere near close to as intended are the handful of people that get to see the production in a nice dark and correctly calibrated grading suite. Everyone else will be seeing something that looks different to the colourists intentions and that defeats the object of a 100 Nit calibrated display.
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Satya Rai Nagpaul
Makofoto, Please share what criterions will you use to select a 'consumer monitor' for the grading environment? Warmly, Satya satya rai nagpaul director of photography mumbai, india Mobile +91-98-70-11-24-84 From: Mako Koiwai <mako1foto@...> A proper grading environment should always include a consumer monitor for a reality check. Makofoto, s. pasadena, ca _._,_._,_
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Mako Koiwai <mako1foto@...>
On Feb 24, 2019, at 08:05, Satya Rai Nagpaul via Cml.News <chayankan=yahoo.com@...> wrote: Makofoto, Please share what criterions will you use to select a 'consumer monitor' for the grading environment? ************* If you’ve been following this thread I guess it’s something that offers up the 200 Nits that are being discussed. All I know is that when we use to do Film transfers on our high end national commercials, setting our looks … the last thing that everyone did was to glance over at the consumer TV off to the side. Of course there was no set standard, other then setting it up using the SMPTE color bars. makofoto, s. pasadena, ca
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You can see display and environment requirements here:
https://www.lightillusion.com/viewing_environments.html Steve
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Geoff Boyle
Thanks for this Steve, really useful.
cheers
From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> On Behalf Of Steve Shaw
You can see display and environment requirements here:
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>Show a producer/Director a TV series/Drama that they shot for SDR and that you have regraded to HDR as a side by side demo and they ask what is wrong with the image on the left.
Completely agree. I understand colorists always grade the SDR version first, so the client is impressed by the improvement rather than depressed going the other way.
My point was simply that consumers drove the change to 200 nits. It wasn’t the original plan.
> My presentation at IBC last year clearly showed that people immediately see the difference and prefer the brighter image with more contrast whilst not noticing some quite large resolution changes.
That is the frustrating bit. I do like your saying in reference to numbers…
Art Adams Cinema Lens Specialist
Our Burbank office is moving! As of Monday, March 4th you’ll find us at 3700 Vanowen Street, Burbank, CA 91505.
ARRI Inc.
Get all the latest information from www.arri.com, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube.
This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents to anyone. Please send us by fax any message containing deadlines as incoming e-mails are not screened for response deadlines. The integrity and security of this message cannot be guaranteed on the Internet. This email has been scanned for email related threats and delivered safely by Mimecast. For more information please visit http://www.mimecast.com
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