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RAW Source Frames to Stills

esl34@...
 



 

Geoff Boyle
 

ACES 16 bit EXR will give you everything that is in the original.

Your graphic designer will need to use software that understands ACES...

Cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
Cinematographer
EU based

Sent from Blue

On 2 Apr 2018, at 17:29, esl34@... wrote:


 

David Fuller
 

Geoff, does Photoshop understand ACES?

David Fuller
Director, Cinematographer, and occasional designer 
Maine, USA

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On Apr 2, 2018, at 11:42 AM, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:

ACES 16 bit EXR will give you everything that is in the original.

Your graphic designer will need to use software that understands ACES...

Cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
Cinematographer
EU based

Sent from Blue
On 2 Apr 2018, at 17:29, esl34@... wrote:


 

Geoff Boyle
 

If you use OCIO free plug in then yes.

Cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
Cinematographer
EU based

Sent from Blue

On 2 Apr 2018, at 18:30, David Fuller <david@...> wrote:
Geoff, does Photoshop understand ACES?

David Fuller
Director, Cinematographer, and occasional designer 
Maine, USA

---

On Apr 2, 2018, at 11:42 AM, Geoff Boyle < geoff@...> wrote:

ACES 16 bit EXR will give you everything that is in the original.

Your graphic designer will need to use software that understands ACES...

Cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
Cinematographer
EU based

Sent from   Blue
On 2 Apr 2018, at 17:29,   esl34@...  wrote:


 

alister@...
 

ACES EXR Should contain everything in the original. However there “might” be differences depending on the software used to create the EXR and how good that is. You are taking the footage in one format and converting it to another, so any flaws in that conversion process will become a feature of the EXR file, especially with raw that must be demosaiced. Over time the debayer/demosaic algorithms for some cameras have improved, so an EXR created a couple of years ago might not be quite as good as one created using the latest processes for that camera. As another example some raw to EXR conversion software may have an option to choose speed over quality, so you need to be sure you are using the optimum settings to ensure you are getting the best results and not loosing anything.


Alister Chapman

DoP - Stereographer
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David Fuller
 

Thank you. I’ll have to check that out.

David Fuller
Director, Cinematographer, Camera Geek
Maine, USA

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On Apr 2, 2018, at 12:41 PM, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:

If you use OCIO free plug in then yes.

Cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
Cinematographer
EU based

Sent from Blue
On 2 Apr 2018, at 18:30, David Fuller <david@...> wrote:
Geoff, does Photoshop understand ACES? 

David Fuller
Director, Cinematographer, and occasional designer 
Maine, USA

---

On Apr 2, 2018, at 11:42 AM, Geoff Boyle < geoff@...> wrote:

ACES 16 bit EXR will give you everything that is in the original. 

Your graphic designer will need to use software that understands ACES... 

Cheers 
Geoff Boyle NSC 
Cinematographer 
EU based 

Sent from   Blue
On 2 Apr 2018, at 17:29,   esl34@...  wrote:


 

Lars Borg
 

Photoshop understands ACES, also without OCIO.
OCIO provides an ODT preview for content below 1.0.

One disadvantage is that Photoshop saves out ACES files as 32 bits instead of 16. 16 is all you need. So files end up being bigger.

Thanks,

Lars Borg  |  Principal Scientist  |  Adobe 


On 4/2/18, 7:25 AM, "cml-raw-log-hdr@... on behalf of David Fuller" <cml-raw-log-hdr@... on behalf of david@...> wrote:

Thank you. I’ll have to check that out.

David Fuller
Director, Cinematographer, Camera Geek
Maine, USA

---

On Apr 2, 2018, at 12:41 PM, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:

If you use OCIO free plug in then yes.

Cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
Cinematographer
EU based

Sent from Blue
On 2 Apr 2018, at 18:30, David Fuller <david@...> wrote:
Geoff, does Photoshop understand ACES? 

David Fuller
Director, Cinematographer, and occasional designer 
Maine, USA

---

On Apr 2, 2018, at 11:42 AM, Geoff Boyle < geoff@...> wrote:

ACES 16 bit EXR will give you everything that is in the original. 

Your graphic designer will need to use software that understands ACES... 

Cheers 
Geoff Boyle NSC 
Cinematographer 
EU based 

Sent from   Blue
On 2 Apr 2018, at 17:29,   esl34@...  wrote:


 


David Fuller
 

Eric,

I just spent some time on the OCIO Web site, and I can say with some assurance that it would be surprising if 5% of graphic designers have the ability—even if they had the inclination—to manage an ACES workflow in Photoshop. First, Photoshop does not understand LUTs, and proper ICC profiles appear require some significant work with the OCIO software to get right. Second, graphic designers have a fundamentally different way of using calibration with monitors than we in the film biz do, and I expect this would add another undesired variable. So I would consider the ACES/EXR option only if the graphic designer in question could assure you that they knew what they were getting into.

So with that background, I’d answer that yes, some of the flexibility of a raw image is lost on export, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing.

If you want to preserve the color and exposure decisions you made, and give the designer something very familiar in their workflow, and allow them significant editing ability, I’d suggest exporting a full-res 16-bit TIFF with either ProPhoto or AdobeRGB ICC profile embedded. The designer is very likely to convert the image to Adobe RGB if it’s going to print, so if you want to maintain control over that process, do it yourself. However, ProPhoto has a wider gamut, so it will offer them more flexibility in color tweaking.

Depending on the source, you might also consider giving them raw frames in their native format: R3D stills are easily exported from Resolve or RedCineX and imported to Photoshop, but they only import as 8-bit images unless you’ve installed the Red Photoshop plugin (Which can be found here: https://www.red.com/downloads?category=Software&release=final) But note that the plugin does not support the latest (IPP2) color science. With that caveat, it works well, gives fun control of the Raw development parameters, and imports into Photoshop as a 16-bit file.
DNG files from BMC cameras import easily through ACR. I’m not sure about other formats, but I expect there are similar tools.

But for my work, and I do this quite frequently for agencies i work for, I’d trust the workflow more if I give them a 16-bit TIFF that I like the color of when I view it in Photoshop using AdobeRGB ICC profile.


David Fuller
Director, Cinematographer, Occasional Designer
Maine, USA

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On Apr 2, 2018, at 11:05 AM, esl34@... wrote:

David Fuller
 

So Lars, Can I simply open an ACES EXR in Photoshop and get expected results? Do I get the ACR import dialog box or something different? 

David Fuller
Director, Cinematographer
Maine, USA

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On Apr 2, 2018, at 2:04 PM, Lars Borg via Cml.News <borg=adobe.com@...> wrote:

Photoshop understands ACES, also without OCIO.
OCIO provides an ODT preview for content below 1.0.

One disadvantage is that Photoshop saves out ACES files as 32 bits instead of 16. 16 is all you need. So files end up being bigger.

Thanks,
Lars Borg  |  Principal Scientist  |  Adobe 

On 4/2/18, 7:25 AM, "cml-raw-log-hdr@... on behalf of David Fuller" <cml-raw-log-hdr@... on behalf of david@...> wrote:

Thank you. I’ll have to check that out.

David Fuller
Director, Cinematographer, Camera Geek
Maine, USA

---

On Apr 2, 2018, at 12:41 PM, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:

If you use OCIO free plug in then yes.

Cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
Cinematographer
EU based

Sent from Blue
On 2 Apr 2018, at 18:30, David Fuller <david@...> wrote:
Geoff, does Photoshop understand ACES? 

David Fuller
Director, Cinematographer, and occasional designer 
Maine, USA

---

On Apr 2, 2018, at 11:42 AM, Geoff Boyle < geoff@...> wrote:

ACES 16 bit EXR will give you everything that is in the original. 

Your graphic designer will need to use software that understands ACES... 

Cheers 
Geoff Boyle NSC 
Cinematographer 
EU based 

Sent from   Blue
On 2 Apr 2018, at 17:29,   esl34@...  wrote:


 


Lars Borg
 

ACES is EXR, not raw, so ACR doesn’t apply. The EXR file opens directly in PS.

EXR doesn’t carry ICC profiles, and PS is ignoring other color metadata, so you have to assign one in PS. Edit > Assign profile. You need to assign an ACES (AP0) profile.

Thanks,

Lars Borg  |  Principal Scientist  |  Adobe  


Gavin Greenwalt
 

EXR doesn’t carry ICC profiles”

It will carry metadata though if it’s a properly formed ACES file.   Wouldn’t it make sense for Photoshop to automatically look at the EXR data and look for the SMPTE ST 2065-4 metadata and apply the correct Photoshop color profile when opening?

Gavin Greenwalt
VFX Supervisor
Seattle, WA

Art Adams
 

>But for my work, and I do this quite frequently for agencies i work for, I’d trust the workflow more if I give them a 16-bit TIFF that I like the color of when I view it in Photoshop using AdobeRGB ICC profile.

That makes sense, but I wonder if giving them a log-encoded TIFF would be similar to a flat pass scan of printed or film material. If they can work with a flat scan then they might be able to work with log.

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area

David Fuller
 

It might. 

I think it would depend on where you started. If the original materilal was shot in log, and you wanted them to have as much freedom to re-interpret as possible, and you had reason to expect that they were comfortable with coloring from a flat scan, then it seems like a good path. Less so if there is some consistency in the look desired or the material originated in something other than log.

David Fuller
Director, Cinematographer
Maine, USA

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On Apr 2, 2018, at 3:28 PM, Art Adams <art.cml.only@...> wrote:

That makes sense, but I wonder if giving them a log-encoded TIFF would be similar to a flat pass scan of printed or film material. If they can work with a flat scan then they might be able to work with log.

Art Adams
 

Agreed. If the goal is maximum flexibility then log might be the answer, but consistency would probably dictate 709 at a deep with depth in a file format they understand.

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area

esl34@...
 

>>R3D stills are easily exported from Resolve or RedCineX and imported to Photoshop, 

>> If the goal is maximum flexibility then log might be the answer, but consistency would probably dictate 709 at a deep with depth in a file format they understand.
 

Thanks, all.  It's a multi-format doc project, so for ease I chose to export all R3D files via RedCine X as R3D stills (as David suggested), and XAVC S-gamut3.cine/S-Log3 files as PNG's from Catalyst; and then provided duplicates of each as TIFFs pulled from the ProRes 4444 12-bit 4k REC709 master (for the reason that Art suggested)... keeping in mind that "if it looks good, it is good."

If I had more time and know-how I'd probably explore loading the whole conformed project into Resolve and exporting RAW material as 16bit EXRs as Geoff suggested. 

Thanks again.

___________
Eric Liner

607.254.2191 (work)
607.227.0350 (cell)
esl34@.cornell.edu
http://www.facebook.com/birdofpreymovie

Robert Olding
 

Assuming that you've already graded the RAW footage to your liking, I'd keep it simple and only deliver an 8 bit TIFF with the Adobe RGB color profile.

If you deliver a "flat" looking image, the designer/art director will wonder why it looks washed out and may not have the skills to make the image look "correct".

Please sign in future

Geoff Boyle
 

When I recommended ACES I thought that the images were to go to a graphic designer and then be incorporated back into the project.
If you just need material for other purposes then a graded TIFF seems like the best bet.

Cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
Cinematographer
EU based

Sent from Blue

On 3 Apr 2018, at 16:19, Robert Olding <robert@...> wrote:
Assuming that you've already graded the RAW footage to your liking, I'd keep it simple and only deliver an 8 bit TIFF with the Adobe RGB color profile.

If you deliver a "flat" looking image, the designer/art director will wonder why it looks washed out and may not have the skills to make the image look "correct".

Please sign in future

George Hupka
 

I second a graded TIFF, I've done that many times... I can make sure the colour is where I want it to be, leave it slightly low contrast so there's room to maneuver for the graphics folks... I've never had a complaint about TIFF.
--
----------
George Hupka
Director/DP
Saskatoon, Canada
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