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Red 512 gb mini mag class action lawsuit


Ed David
 

Looking for red mini mag 512 gb purchasers to start a class-action lawsuit. They have represented the red mini mag as 512 gb, where it is really only 480 gb, as seen here:  https://www.cinema5d.com/whats-inside-a-red-mini-mag-the-controversy-jarred-lands-statement/



Please email me at ed.david@...


As you see, a class action lawsuit was successful against Nvidia for the same misrepresentation: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/07/nvidia-offers-30-to-gtx-970-customers-in-class-action-lawsuit-over-ram/


thank you!
ed david | cinematographer, filmmaker
WWW.EDDAVIDDP.COM   /   917.449.0739


Jan Klier
 

Ed,

Not sure if this should be discussed on CML and this particular list, as it easily could become a rathole. 

As a technically minded person experienced in software and firmware, after reading both stories, I would suggest that this is not class action suit material. Pricing is a function of the market, and not a zero-sum game of component pricing. Most well run companies with big R&D expenses do appropriately allocate such expenses as markup to products which may at times appear big, and those are reasonable business practices. There are many companies that do spend significant R&D in qualifying and isolating components beyond their top-line specs, and there is more to it for experienced engineers. Lastly a 7% reduction in space of a magazine that regularly gets rotated out for the next one once filled up is not the same type of use case as the Nvidia scenario. Presumably the overallocation in SSD capacity also guarantees you that the capacity of the card does not shrink over its lifetime as worn out blocks have to be taken out of service, which would be the alternative.

I’m not a big fan of RED for a variety of reason, and have no bone to pick in this argument. I’m saying this more out of respect for engineering challenges and business challenges that often don’t get fair treatment by overly budget conscious customers.

Everyone is free to decide what they think about this particular situation. But driving a class action lawsuit I don’t think benefits our industry.

Best,
Jan Klier
DP NYC

On Jul 12, 2019, at 8:28 AM, Ed David <ed.david@...> wrote:

Looking for red mini mag 512 gb purchasers to start a class-action lawsuit. They have represented the red mini mag as 512 gb, where it is really only 480 gb, as seen here:  https://www.cinema5d.com/whats-inside-a-red-mini-mag-the-controversy-jarred-lands-statement/


Please email me at ed.david@...

As you see, a class action lawsuit was successful against Nvidia for the same misrepresentation: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/07/nvidia-offers-30-to-gtx-970-customers-in-class-action-lawsuit-over-ram/

thank you!
ed david | cinematographer, filmmaker
WWW.EDDAVIDDP.COM   /   917.449.0739


alister@...
 

Isn’t this just the difference between GB and GiB where an SSD with 512GB of nand will actually only ever give 476.8 GiB of storage? 

Alister Chapman

DoP - Stereographer
UK Mobile +44 7711 152226
US Mobile +1(216)298-1977


www.xdcam-user.com    1.5 million hits, 100,000 visits from over 45,000 unique visitors every month!  Film and Video production techniques, reviews and news.



Ed David
 

Thank you for this, Jan.  You make excellent points.   But this is not about the cost that red charges for a drive.  They can charge $50,000 or whatever they want.   This is about misrepresentation of the storage space in their drive.  

They have said the drive is a 512 gb drive, but when you open it up, Micron says it's a 480 GB drive, clearly labeled.  You cannot dispute disk space size of storage, or in the case of Nvidia, of Ram.

The question of writable space has come up.  And that is a reduction of 30 percent.  The red 512 gb minimag's writable space is 447 GB, same as a 480 GB SSD drive. This falls in line with the micron 480 GB SSD drive that is inside. This falls in line with all other SSD drives that are labeled as 480 GB drives.  



On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 9:00 AM Jan Klier <jan@...> wrote:
Ed,

Not sure if this should be discussed on CML and this particular list, as it easily could become a rathole. 

As a technically minded person experienced in software and firmware, after reading both stories, I would suggest that this is not class action suit material. Pricing is a function of the market, and not a zero-sum game of component pricing. Most well run companies with big R&D expenses do appropriately allocate such expenses as markup to products which may at times appear big, and those are reasonable business practices. There are many companies that do spend significant R&D in qualifying and isolating components beyond their top-line specs, and there is more to it for experienced engineers. Lastly a 7% reduction in space of a magazine that regularly gets rotated out for the next one once filled up is not the same type of use case as the Nvidia scenario. Presumably the overallocation in SSD capacity also guarantees you that the capacity of the card does not shrink over its lifetime as worn out blocks have to be taken out of service, which would be the alternative.

I’m not a big fan of RED for a variety of reason, and have no bone to pick in this argument. I’m saying this more out of respect for engineering challenges and business challenges that often don’t get fair treatment by overly budget conscious customers.

Everyone is free to decide what they think about this particular situation. But driving a class action lawsuit I don’t think benefits our industry.

Best,
Jan Klier
DP NYC



Ed David
 

Yes but the writable space of a red minimag 512gb card is 447 GB, not 476.8.  
This corresponds to the writable space of a 480 GB drive


ed david | cinematographer, filmmaker
WWW.EDDAVIDDP.COM   /   917.449.0739


On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 9:27 AM <alister@...> wrote:
Isn’t this just the difference between GB and GiB where an SSD with 512GB of nand will actually only ever give 476.8 GiB of storage? 

Alister Chapman

DoP - Stereographer
UK Mobile +44 7711 152226
US Mobile +1(216)298-1977

_._,_._,_


Daniel Rozsnyó
 

Having done analysis on other nasty practices of RED - e.g. my RED ONE shows "Media is too slow" even when I connect a 450MB/s CFAST card to it, without any effort to actually verify its speed - solely on basis of disk identifier, it seems that the capacity issue is really a subject to a class action suit. Especially when the camera did show a fake capacity identifier. What can be a better proof of cheating on customers?

If you see this thread from 2015:

    http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?110078-RED-MINI-MAG-MINI-MAG-SIDE-MODULE-and-MINI-MAG-STATION-now-shipping/page30

there are some complaining about the capacity. If you are familiar with computer technology, then those who use MACs will see 480 GB, those who use Windows will see 447 GB - since Microsoft decided to not follow the digital SI prefixes - the correctly displayed value would be 447GiB in this case (what would a Linux user see when connecting the same drive).

This is quite a proof that there was never 512GB of space on those drives, and few year back, RED decided to stop marketing the 256 / 512 / 1T media, and sells just 120 / 240 / 480 / 960GB.

There is no overallocation. The Micron SSD inside the "512GB" has its capacity of 480GB = 447GiB. It might be changed to a lower value, but never to a higher value, its not how overallocation works. And at the end, modern flash chips do no longer have thouse binary round capacities, nobody can blame it on that.

What the industry needs is a higher level of transparency and less lies from those who do not dare to mislead their sheeps.

I am not familiar what rules apply to starting a class action for a situation that has ended and no longer prevails, since RED did change the marking and indication of capacity in the cameras. Yet those who bought the drive, were greatly mislead and could never have utilized those 32GB of extra space.. so for me.. return the drive and get back the SAME dollars value they paid. If RED would be fair, they can run a exchange programme to swap the 512G for 960G one.


Ing. Daniel Rozsnyo
camera developer
Prague, Czech Republic



On 07/12/2019 03:00 PM, Jan Klier wrote:
Ed,

Not sure if this should be discussed on CML and this particular list, as it easily could become a rathole. 

As a technically minded person experienced in software and firmware, after reading both stories, I would suggest that this is not class action suit material. Pricing is a function of the market, and not a zero-sum game of component pricing. Most well run companies with big R&D expenses do appropriately allocate such expenses as markup to products which may at times appear big, and those are reasonable business practices. There are many companies that do spend significant R&D in qualifying and isolating components beyond their top-line specs, and there is more to it for experienced engineers. Lastly a 7% reduction in space of a magazine that regularly gets rotated out for the next one once filled up is not the same type of use case as the Nvidia scenario. Presumably the overallocation in SSD capacity also guarantees you that the capacity of the card does not shrink over its lifetime as worn out blocks have to be taken out of service, which would be the alternative.

I’m not a big fan of RED for a variety of reason, and have no bone to pick in this argument. I’m saying this more out of respect for engineering challenges and business challenges that often don’t get fair treatment by overly budget conscious customers.

Everyone is free to decide what they think about this particular situation. But driving a class action lawsuit I don’t think benefits our industry.

Best,
Jan Klier
DP NYC


Paul Curtis
 

On 12 Jul 2019, at 14:27, Ed David <ed.david@...> wrote:
They have said the drive is a 512 gb drive, but when you open it up, Micron says it's a 480 GB drive, clearly labeled. You cannot dispute disk space size of storage, or in the case of Nvidia, of Ram.
I think you need to read the details very carefully about what did/didn't/might have transpired and also how the industry in general has evolved with the same issues.

In your point there i *think* this issue is that the native internal memory on that 480GB labeled drive is 512GB but micron, as did the rest of the industry, shifted the way it is branded from including over provisioning to not including it. AFAIK Red have always listed on their site the actual free usable space on the cards (did last time i looked)

cheers
Paul

Paul Curtis, VFX & Post | Canterbury, UK


Ed David
 

A lawsuit about this disk space issue was filed in 2003:

and western digital settled over this matter in 2006:


ed david | cinematographer, filmmaker
WWW.EDDAVIDDP.COM   /   917.449.0739


Geoff Boyle
 

Guys, if you try for a class action on this you should also try for ones against all the manufacturers for marketing 4K cameras that aren’t, that’s the photosite count not the pixel resolution. Then try Kodak for film labelled as ISO500 that wasn’t close, 5296. Then look at the lighting manufacturers figures for light output. Then…

 

We work in a business where manufacturers often, if not mostly, use “optimistic” numbers.

 

You’ll not win this.

 

I don’t want CML dragged into it, I don’t want it to be seen that we are instigating this.

 

Chase this pipedream but please don’t involve CML, we can’t afford it.

 

That’s not to say that CML will back away if we think things are wrong and we’ll take the legal problems. We’ve had the lawyers on us 4 times so far, we won each time. We have to choose our fights and this is not a CML fight.

 

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076

www.gboyle.nl

www.cinematography.net

 

 


Ed David
 

That is fair.  
Thanks Geoff and sorry!
Ed


ed david | cinematographer, filmmaker
WWW.EDDAVIDDP.COM   /   917.449.0739


_._,_._,_


Ed David
 

also sorry one more post - it is incorrect that I posted that a red minimag 512gb card has 432gb of space, it has 476 gb of space.  I screwed up my post


ed david | cinematographer, filmmaker
WWW.EDDAVIDDP.COM   /   917.449.0739



Rakesh Malik
 

"Guys, if you try for a class action on this you should also try for ones against all the manufacturers for marketing 4K cameras that aren’t, that’s the photosite count not the pixel resolution."

That could be applied to every camera out there, not just 4K cameras. People complained about Sigma marketing its effective resolution rather than actual for the Foveon sensor, ignoring the fact that ALL camera manufacturers did the same thing.

It's pretty ridiculous and misguided all around. NONE  the camera manufacturers that provide media make their own SSDs. They're all cherry picked and rehoused to ensure that they actually work since so many SSD manufacturers game their specs. Why not go after them?

It's nonsensical... definitely right to stay out of it.
Rakesh Malik
Cinematographer/Colorist, Seattle




On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 8:45 AM Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:

Guys, if you try for a class action on this you should also try for ones against all the manufacturers for marketing 4K cameras that aren’t, that’s the photosite count not the pixel resolution. Then try Kodak for film labelled as ISO500 that wasn’t close, 5296. Then look at the lighting manufacturers figures for light output. Then…

 

We work in a business where manufacturers often, if not mostly, use “optimistic” numbers.

 

You’ll not win this.

 

I don’t want CML dragged into it, I don’t want it to be seen that we are instigating this.

 

Chase this pipedream but please don’t involve CML, we can’t afford it.

 

That’s not to say that CML will back away if we think things are wrong and we’ll take the legal problems. We’ve had the lawyers on us 4 times so far, we won each time. We have to choose our fights and this is not a CML fight.

 

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076

www.gboyle.nl

www.cinematography.net

 

 


deanan@gmail.com
 


On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 9:37 AM Rakesh Malik <tamerlin@...> wrote:
NONE  the camera manufacturers that provide media make their own SSDs. 

Response below not intended as nitpicking but more out of personal interest in what the companies are up to:

In the consumer space, Samsung makes flash, flash controllers, SSDs, camera SOCs, sensors, and cameras. 

Sony and Codex also make custom media (not necessarily flash or flash controllers) and likewise Red has in the past (no idea what they do now...). 

Deanan DaSilva
Product Design/Dev Consultant
Playa del Rey, CA


Mitch Gross
 

I would equate this to back in the CRT day’s when a 21” monitor was really less than 20” of picture because the edges of the tube were behind the bezel.

Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager
Panasonic System Solutions Company of North America
New York


Robert A. Ober
 

Geoff Boyle wrote on 7/12/19 10:44:

Guys, if you try for a class action on this you should also try for ones against all the manufacturers for marketing 4K cameras that aren’t, that’s the photosite count not the pixel resolution. Then try Kodak for film labelled as ISO500 that wasn’t close, 5296. Then look at the lighting manufacturers figures for light output. Then…

 

We work in a business where manufacturers often, if not mostly, use “optimistic” numbers.

 

You’ll not win this.

 

I don’t want CML dragged into it, I don’t want it to be seen that we are instigating this.

 

Chase this pipedream but please don’t involve CML, we can’t afford it.

 

That’s not to say that CML will back away if we think things are wrong and we’ll take the legal problems. We’ve had the lawyers on us 4 times so far, we won each time. We have to choose our fights and this is not a CML fight.


–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

Hey Folks,

Being in IT for a long time I can't help but to respond.

I agree that keeping CML out of it makes sense.

However,  if one opens the mag and the drive is clearly labeled as something different than promised, that is blatant and goes beyond the photosite vs pixel resolution issues.  It also goes beyond gb vs gib, etc.

And just because this sort of thing is done all the time shouldn't deter folks from fighting back if they have the opportunity.  People need to start standing up for correctness and against fraudulent behavior.

Y'all take care,
Robert

Robert A. Ober
IT Consultant, Vidcaster, & Freelance Preditor(Producer/Editor)
www.infohou.com
Houston, TX


Robert A. Ober
 

Mitch Gross wrote on 7/12/19 18:19:

I would equate this to back in the CRT day’s when a 21” monitor was really less than 20” of picture because the edges of the tube were behind the bezel.
–––––––––––––––––––––

It's worse.  It's like the manufacturing telling my my new AC unit is 2.5 ton when in fact it's only 2 ton.  You'd be pissed at that, eh?

Robert

Robert A. Ober
IT Consultant, Vidcaster, & Freelance Preditor(Producer/Editor)
www.infohou.com
Houston, TX


Mitch Gross
 

On Jul 14, 2019, at 6:31 PM, Robert A. Ober <robob@...> wrote:

It's worse.  It's like the manufacturing telling my my new AC unit is 2.5 ton when in fact it's only 2 ton.  You'd be pissed at that, eh?

Only if the one manufacturer that I could use had both 2.5 and 2 ton models for sale simultaneously and there was a difference in price but the actual output was the same. That’s not what happened here. 

Mitch Gross
Cinema Product Manager 
Panasonic System Solutions Company of North America
New York



Robert A. Ober
 

Mitch Gross wrote on 7/14/19 17:59:

On Jul 14, 2019, at 6:31 PM, Robert A. Ober <robob@...> wrote:

It's worse.  It's like the manufacturing telling my my new AC unit is 2.5 ton when in fact it's only 2 ton.  You'd be pissed at that, eh?

Only if the one manufacturer that I could use had both 2.5 and 2 ton models for sale simultaneously and there was a difference in price but the actual output was the same. That’s not what happened here. 
–––––––––––

Huh?   They said it was X amount and yet it was clearly something lower.  That is the scenario I analogized.

And besides,  I have products from both manufacturers for which you have recently worked, including memory cards, and neither in my experience have participated in such fraudulent behavior.

Hope you are well and good,
Robert

Robert A. Ober
IT Consultant, Vidcaster, & Freelance Preditor(Producer/Editor)
www.infohou.com
Houston, TX


Stanley B. Gill
 

Ed –

Considering you get legal action granted against RED, what do you want out of this whole thing?

– Stan

Writer Producer Director

StanleyBGill.com

On Jul 12, 2019, at 7:28 AM, Ed David <ed.david@...> wrote:

Looking for red mini mag 512 gb purchasers to start a class-action lawsuit. They have represented the red mini mag as 512 gb, where it is really only 480 gb, as seen here:  https://www.cinema5d.com/whats-inside-a-red-mini-mag-the-controversy-jarred-lands-statement/



Bob Kertesz
 

Victorious and almost always settled out of court class action lawsuits realistically only benefit the attorneys representing the class, who usually make several million dollars. You haven't seen an enormously inflated fantasy list of expenses and hours until you've seen the list the class attorneys submit to the judge or arbitrator.

Everyone else gets a small check and (maybe) a statement from the offending party that they will try to do better in the future without admitting they did anything wrong. No American corporation ever admits wrongdoing in a settlement, ever. And the larger the class size, the less money everyone except that attorneys representing them gets.

And that's better than it used to be (at least in California). Before the current law was passed, pretty much all the settlement money went to the attorneys, and members of the class got a coupon good for a small discount on future purchases from the company they just finished suing.

I've participated in some classes time to time, and for the cost of a stamp and ten minutes to fill out the form, I usually see $20-$50 a year or more later. But I did once participate in a suit against JVC for advertising my first HD set as being progressive when it was in fact an interlaced panel. The set retailed at $10K, so there weren't that many class participants, and I got a check for about $500. The attorneys got, if I remember correctly, about $4 million.

Frankly, unless the sole reason is to punish RED, this is a major black hole of wasted time with a dubious outcome even in the case of a complete victory.

-Bob

Bob Kertesz
BlueScreen LLC
Hollywood, California

Engineer, Video Controller, and Live Compositor Extraordinaire.

High quality images for more than four decades - whether you've wanted them or not.©

* * * * * * * * * *

On 7/16/2019 11:21:55 AM, Stanley B. Gill wrote:
Ed –

Considering you get legal action granted against RED, what do you want out of this whole thing?

– Stan

Writer Producer Director

StanleyBGill.com

On Jul 12, 2019, at 7:28 AM, Ed David <ed.david@...> wrote:

Looking for red mini mag 512 gb purchasers to start a class-action lawsuit. They have represented the red mini mag as 512 gb, where it is really only 480 gb, as seen here:  https://www.cinema5d.com/whats-inside-a-red-mini-mag-the-controversy-jarred-lands-statement/