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Sony VENICE camera - word on the street

medavoym@...
 

Hi!

What is the word on the street re: SONY VENICE camera?
In terms of image quality…

I know my question is a bit vague, just wanted to see what people think about it, after playing with the demo models, shooting, playing with the footage...
Does it compare with the other high-end options? Arri Alexa, Amira, Red Weapon, etc. Is it in the same league?

Is the image filmic, is it closer to Arri then to RED, is the color science reminiscent of film (like the Sony F35) or closer to a digital feel, like the other Sony models?

Thanks! Just trying to see if people think this would be a winner and a great option for feature filmmaking at the highest end.
All the best!

Toby Oliver <tobyoliver@...>
 

Yes I have been doing some initial tests with the Venice in prep for a feature film; I was most interested in testing with anamorphic glass.

I found the imagery to be totally comparable with Alexa (which I know very well) and also the newest REDs, Helium and Monstro 8K. Testing was with the same lenses, Cooke anamorphics. By no means was I doing the most rigorous empirical tests but to the eye when color timed to match they all look virtually identical; similar dynamic range and color rendition, at normal light levels at least. 

I was quite keen on the Venice for our movie but unfortunately at launch this month the camera does not have any variable speed capability (that comes with the Firmware 2.0 in August) and we need a fair bit of that.

But the Venice looked very nice and I like the way Sony have set up the various sensor modes for true 4K S35, 4K Anamorphic and 6K full frame all in one camera. And the internal 8-step ND’s that go up in increments of 1 stop are wonderful, you don’t have to carry any glass filter ND’s at all.

We didn't get to testing the full workflow but it records to the Sony X-OCN compressed raw format which is considerably smaller files sizes compared to say, ARRIRAW, and supposedly retains all the image quality from the sensor.

Interesting camera.


TOBY OLIVER, ACS

Director of Photography
Los Angeles

+1 (323) 304 7330

tobyoliver@...

www.tobyoliver.com

IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002947

On Feb 3, 2018, at 10:36 AM, medavoym via Cml.News <medavoym=yahoo.com@...> wrote:

Hi!

What is the word on the street re: SONY VENICE camera?
In terms of image quality…

I know my question is a bit vague, just wanted to see what people think about it, after playing with the demo models, shooting, playing with the footage...
Does it compare with the other high-end options? Arri Alexa, Amira, Red Weapon, etc. Is it in the same league?

Is the image filmic, is it closer to Arri then to RED, is the color science reminiscent of film (like the Sony F35) or closer to a digital feel, like the other Sony models?

Thanks! Just trying to see if people think this would be a winner and a great option for feature filmmaking at the highest end.
All the best!

Art Adams
 

>(that comes with the Firmware 2.0 in August) and we need a fair bit of that.)

That's the part that baffles me. Releasing a camera when major features are six months away seems like an odd marketing move.

The ISO 500 native sensitivity seems problematic as well.

The ND system, though... I don't know why everyone isn't doing this. It's brilliant.

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area

Philip Holland
 

I'm certainly with you on that one Art.

-----------------
Phil Holland - Cinematographer
818 470 0623


From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> on behalf of Art Adams <art.cml.only@...>
Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 5:22:17 PM
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@...
Subject: Re: [raw-log-hdr] Sony VENICE camera - word on the street
 
>(that comes with the Firmware 2.0 in August) and we need a fair bit of that.)

That's the part that baffles me. Releasing a camera when major features are six months away seems like an odd marketing move.

The ISO 500 native sensitivity seems problematic as well.

The ND system, though... I don't know why everyone isn't doing this. It's brilliant.

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area

Kris Denton
 

There is in apparent that it will have dual ISO 500 and 2500

Kris Denton
DP
LA

On Feb 4, 2018, at 5:22 PM, Art Adams <art.cml.only@...> wrote:

The ISO 500 native sensitivity seems problematic as well.

Kris Denton
 

Bloody spell check...

There is an update that will have a dual ISO of 500 and 2500.

Kris Denton
DP
LA

On Feb 4, 2018, at 7:59 PM, Kris Denton <krisdenton@...> wrote:

There is in apparent that it will have dual ISO 500 and 2500

Kris Denton
DP
LA



On Feb 4, 2018, at 5:22 PM, Art Adams <art.cml.only@...> wrote:

The ISO 500 native sensitivity seems problematic as well.

Argyris_Theos_cml
 

We on the GSC had a quick look (not a real test) at the Venice. We will post on our experience soon.

Meanwhile, the Venice will definitely be a dual ISO camera

Also false color will be incorporated from v2.0. This was a feature we missed in the preproduction camera we saw.

High frame rate will be a future add on.

Here is the roadmap to the updates, as communicated to me

 

 

1) SHIPPING

The first units will be shipped from Japan early next week. We expect that the first units will be at our dealers/ customers around Mid/ 3rd week of Feb.

 

 

2) NEW FEATURES & UPDATES

                1) We will add 25p in Full Frame recording from V2. This is very important for European productions as 25p is the man framerate for Commercials & TV productions

                2) False Colour will be available in V2 instead of V3

                3) Partial Camera Remote via wired LAN connection from V2 onwards. This includes the possibility to remotely Start/Stop Record, change ND filter, Shutter, FPS or EI and the Assign Buttons.

                4) DUAL BASE ISO from V2: This is a complete new feature which will add a second High ISO value next to the Base ISO of 500. The second ISO is 2500. To add ISO 2500 as 2nd BASE ISO gives customers to switch between these two depending on the shooting scenes.

                                ISO 500: Ideal for outside and day scenes

                               ISO 2500: Ideal for night/ dark scenes

With ISO 2500 we will have much lower noise. Also Anamorphic lenses are slower compared to spherical lenses so we can avoid Noise with this feature as well.

Last but not least we can keep our superb latitude of 15+ stops and customer can shoot with ISO 800 when they wish. Just combine ISO2500 and add internal ND filter.

                For example: Set ISO2500 Mode à Change to 3200EI à Add 0.6 ND filter à Camera will be like ISO800               

 

All details about the new features can be found online:

https://www.sony.co.uk/pro/article/broadcast-products-venice-firmware-roadmap

 

3) HFR Support

The recording of higher frame rates is currently under development and will be implemented at a later date.

               

 

4) MENU SIMULATOR

The menu simulator can be found here and works with Tablets and PC/Mac.

https://www.sony.net/Products/Cinematography/Venice/

 

5) WORKFLOW/ POSTPRPODUCTION

The following partners have already released their newest Versions. With others like Adobe or Avid we are in close communication.

 

-          BlackMagic Design – DaVinci Resolve 14.3

-          Filmlight – Baselight 5.0

-          Assimilate – Scratch

 

Also our own RAW Viewer has been updated to V3.0 to Support VENICE files. Please download from this link.

https://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/RAWVIEWER

 

Disclaimer: I am a Sony ICE, though I have not served as such for some time

 

Best

 

Argyris Theos, gsc

DoP

tel. +30 6944 725 315

skype: Argyris.Theos

www.vimeo.com/argyristheos

 

Mako Koiwai
 

On Feb 4, 2018, at 17:22, Art Adams <art.cml.only@...> wrote:

(that comes with the Firmware 2.0 in August) and we need a fair bit of that.)
That's the part that baffles me. Releasing a camera when major features are six months away seems like an odd marketing move.

******

What!

RED started that and everyone else had to follow, so as not to lose potential customers.

Arri certainly followed suit and of course even made their customers spend more for Licenses to use some of those features.





makofoto, s. pasadena, ca

Art Adams
 

This seems like an awful lot of key features to be missing for six months. No 25p in full frame? No false color? No high frame rates? Eventual *partial* remote control? Does anyone have any idea how many people are going to jump on this right away with so many missing features?

It feels like they baked a cake that's raw on the inside and instead of letting it bake a bit longer they're letting us have it now—but it has to sit in a warm room for six months and we'll have to settle for licking the frosting in the meantime.

--
Art Adams
Director of Photography
San Francisco Bay Area

Argyris_Theos_cml
 

Mako nailed it

No need to add anything

 

Argyris Theos, gsc

DoP

tel. +30 6944 725 315

skype: Argyris.Theos

www.vimeo.com/argyristheos

Geoff Boyle
 

Err Art, don’t you always set the Alexa to ISO 400?

 

Having shot with ISO 500 film for a very long time I’m fine with this.

 

Maybe Sony decided the rate it at it’s best noise rating rather than make a marketing point.

 

Cheers

 

Geoff

Sysadmin

 

From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... [mailto:cml-raw-log-hdr@...] On Behalf Of Art Adams
Sent: Monday, 5 February 2018 02:22
To: cml-raw-log-hdr@...
Subject: Re: [raw-log-hdr] Sony VENICE camera - word on the street

 

>(that comes with the Firmware 2.0 in August) and we need a fair bit of that.)

 

That's the part that baffles me. Releasing a camera when major features are six months away seems like an odd marketing move.

 

The ISO 500 native sensitivity seems problematic as well.

The ND system, though... I don't know why everyone isn't doing this. It's brilliant.

 

--

Art Adams

Director of Photography

San Francisco Bay Area

 

Pawel Achtel ACS
 

Ø  The ND system, though... I don't know why everyone isn't doing this. It's brilliant.

 

Hey Art,

 

There is no one and fast answer to this. Yes, rear filtering is convenient in most uses, however this requires extra glass at the rear of the lens. This can (sometimes severely) affect performance of certain lenses, particularly with short exit pupil distance. The extra glass can cause image plane curvature resulting loss of contrast.  

 

Roger Cicala published a series of articles on this subject a few years ago. Excellent reading, as usual. Here is a link to one of them:

 

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/07/sensor-stack-thickness-part-iii-the-summary/

 

I would certainly prefer to have rear ND system as an option.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Pawel Achtel ACS B.Eng.(Hons) M.Sc.

director of photography

 

ACHTEL PTY LIMITED, ABN 52 134 895 417

Website: www.achtel.com

Mobile: 040 747 2747 (overseas: +61 4 0747 2747)

Mail: PO BOX 557, Rockdale, NSW 2216, Australia

Address: RA 913 Coles Bay Rd., Coles Bay, TAS 7215, Australia

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Email: Pawel.Achtel@...

Facebook: facebook.com/PawelAchtel

Twitter: twitter.com/PawelAchtel

Skype: Pawel.Achtel

 

_._,_._,_

Noel Sterrett
 

On 02/05/2018 12:03 AM, Art Adams wrote:
... so many missing features?
Sony released a limited feature version of the F5/55 in 2013. They included a "roadmap" of what was to come -- for FREE.  I had my doubts. But in the five years that have followed, they delivered everything promised and much more.

Frankly, I've shot movies using fewer features than the F5/55 had then, and Venice has now.

Cheers.

Noel Sterrett
Admit One Pictures

Jonathon Sendall
 

Just finished a shoot on Phantom 4K Flex at ISO 800 and 640. Not a massive problem but it was studio.

Saw the Venice at the CVP stand at BSC. The camera was pointed at some people sitting in at the central cafe and I must say the image on the 4K monitor looked really nice straight out the camera considering the "scene" was unlit. Colours were subtle and the blacks detailed but smooth. Of course this was a grand scientific method of mine, using my eyes. The monitor could have been fed through a LUT, I'm not sure but the take away is that I would not have said the image wasn't "Sony like" and you can take that to mean anything you like. I just liked it and would love to use it on something.

Jonathon Sendall
DP, London

Jonathon Sendall
 

Sorry, double negative "I would not have said the image wasn't "Sony like". The image was NOT "Sony like".

Jonathon Sendall
DP, London

me@...
 

What are the feelings on skin tone and highlight rolloff? Especially in comparison to the current “titleholder” ARRI Alexa / Amira sensor?
--
- Jeremey

Gavin Greenwalt
 

“What are the feelings on highlight rolloff? Especially in comparison to the current “titleholder” ARRI Alexa / Amira sensor?”

Cameras shouldn’t be judged based on what stock gamma curve the manufacturer includes by default in the drop down menu.  Essentially all digital sensors hard clip without any roll off give or take a slight bit of highlight recovery possible with different debayer algorithms.  Essentially every professional camera these days includes user customizable LUTs in camera.  If you don’t like the roll off of a camera, use a different one.   Color of course is still important because that’s partly determined by the bayer color filters and other deep inaccessible color science that the user can’t touch.  But tone mapping is thoroughly within the control of the user and always a LUT whether that’s built in or user uploaded.  If you like Arri’s rolloff, load up an Arri Log gamma curve for your preferred camera.

Gavin Greenwalt
Pixel Wrangler
Seattle, WA

 

me@...
 

But sometimes you want the path of least resistance from A to B; that’s why I asked the question of how they compare “out of the box” in both color and DR / rolloff. At the price point these cameras come in I would think you’d want the fewest “workarounds” possible but perhaps that’s just me and my particular workflow. 

--
- Jeremey

alfonso parra
 

From our experience filming in Cartagena, the dynamic range is about 1 1/2 more compared to the f55, especially because of the improvement in the signal-to-noise ratio, but I would highlight two important improvements, the first is that the way in which the detail disappears in the high lights is much softer than previous cameras and second that skin tone is now more natural, with more texture and with a great gradations of color with a lot of subtlety.
We recorded in X-OCN ST corrected in Davinci  in ACES leaving in 2020 PQ 1000 nits and also in 709.


Regards

 Alfonso Parra AEC, ADFC
www.alfonsoparra.com
Tel Colombia 57 3115798776
Tel Spain 34 639 109 309



alister@...
 


On 24 Mar 2018, at 13:26, alfonso parra <info@...> wrote:

From our experience filming in Cartagena, the dynamic range is about 1 1/2 more compared to the f55, especially because of the improvement in the signal-to-noise ratio, but I would highlight two important improvements, the first is that the way in which the detail disappears in the high lights is much softer than previous cameras and second that skin tone is now more natural, with more texture and with a great gradations of color with a lot of subtlety.

I would agree with this. In particular there is something very pleasing about the way the extreme highlights look that is nicer than the F55. I don’t really see that big an improvement in over exposure range at the base ISO, but the top end of the top stop just looks more natural for some reason. The main DR improvement is in the shadows where the low noise allows you to really dig a long way into the darkest parts of the image.  Or rate the camera at 800 or 1000 ISO to really extend the highlights.

Alister Chapman

DoP - Stereographer
UK Mobile +44 7711 152226
US Mobile +1(216)298-1977


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