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Updated camera response chart


Geoff Boyle
 

I’ve updated the camera response chart so that now instead of using the manufacturers default settings I’ve used the camera metadata.

 

We were very careful with the camera settings when we shot, and it shows!

 

The BMD version 5 of the firmware and not the current V6.

 

It’s weird that the manufacturers defaults can be so bad.

 

The Monstro comes out much much better in this setting.

 

 

cheers
Geoff Boyle NSC
EU based cinematographer
+31 637155076

www.gboyle.nl

www.cinematography.net

 

 


Alex Metcalfe DoP
 

It’s weird that the manufacturers defaults can be so bad.


Yes this is so true - especially for RED. In the UK RED is often cursed by people who have heard terrible stories about noise, crashing, workflow etc. I have a RED (now a Gemini) and absolutely love the pictures but the camera does require you to know how to use it and how best to set it up. This has become better on each generation, I started with the RED ONE which was particularly fussy about set up whilst workflow was a disaster zone! One of the great things about the Alexa is that you can take it out of the box, use it and the pictures will be lovely which is why you hear so few disaster stories about the Alexa. Geoff's charts are a great example of this. The first one shows the Monstro to be one of the worst on test which surprised everyone who knows the camera well but I suspect confirmed the beliefs of those who don't use the camera but know its reputation, the second chart using different settings demonstrates the possible results from the Monstro that us regular users know. It's a real failing as having the luxury of supervising a project through post is becoming rarer and rarer and even if you do everything right on the shoot day there is no guarantee that this will be carried though in post.
-- 
Alex Metcalfe DoP - EU
+44 (0) 7785 557611
www.alexmetcalfedop.co.uk


Christopher Rowe
 

the camera does require you to know how to use it and how best to set it up.... even if you do everything right on the shoot day there is no guarantee that this will be carried though in post.

Hi Alex,

Thanks for your interesting comment and explanation of the difference between the Red curves in Geoff's charts.

I am preparing a camera test which will include the Red Monstro, could you point me to a site or document that details the best set-up and workflow for Red? I have used Reds occasionally, but am more familiar with Arri and Sony cameras. To be honest, I try to avoid using Reds based on previous experience of unreliability (Red One crashing) and colour artefacts in the highlights (Epic), my most recent experience was with the Dragon, so I'll be interested to see how the latest model compares to the competition and to that end want to treat each camera in the best possible way!

Chris 


--

 

 

 

Christopher Rowe

British DP, based in Berlin

Arri Amira Owner/Operator

www.christopher-rowe.de


Rakesh Malik
 

Most post applications still seem to get the settings wrong with IPP2, so I just override the Red settings on every project. The apps should however read the camera metadata and set the parameters correctly... Not even Scratch does, though. 

I have the luxury of being in control of the image through post on most of my projects though.

Assimilate's Mazze told me once that with Red's IPP2 some of the parameters aren't specified in the metadata, so Scratch is going with its default settings, which don't match the settings used for on-set monitoring. I suppose either Red needs to update the metadata to ensure that the defaults are better, or educate the app developers better to ensure that they don't hose up those settings. 


 

 

 

Christopher Rowe

British DP, based in Berlin

Arri Amira Owner/Operator

www.christopher-rowe.de


Art Adams
 

Chris-

 

My input, as a DP, is that the OLPF makes the difference. I had the best luck with the Skin tone/highlight OLPF, but I had to work with the standard on a VR rig (production didn’t want to source 16 STH OLPFs for some reason) and they worked well.

 

IPP2 is a must. Dial in your contrast and highlight roll-off and you should be good to go. I never did much more than that and I captured images I was happy with.

 

I think you’ll find that the current sensors are the best looking by far.

 

Art Adams

Cinema Lens Specialist

 

ARRI Inc.
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Sean Porter
 

I’m working on a job now with a DSMC Gemini and this thread has me spooked.

I sent this post directly to Red this morning:

“Assimilate's Mazze told me once that with Red's IPP2 some of the parameters aren't specified in the metadata, so Scratch is going with its default settings, which don't match the settings used for on-set monitoring. I suppose either Red needs to update the metadata to ensure that the defaults are better, or educate the app developers better to ensure that they don't hose up those settings. “

And this was Red’s response:

We provide our SDK to all 3rd party NLES. It is up to them to implement what we provide in their software. I would suggest telling the post house which color space and gamma curve you want your project finished in.”

Not sure it’s thats simple?

Sean Porter
Cinematographer 
Currently in CDMX



--
Sean Porter 347.439.4840


tom@gleeson.net.au
 

Rand Tompson has outlined clearly with pictures three different options (depending on your needs) for dealing appropriately with Red footage in Resolve with IPP2. This thread is located at:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?173430-Is-RED-aware-of-this&goto=newpost Check out Page 2. 


Many Thanks
Tom Gleeson
Sydney DP



Geoff Boyle
 

I've replied to this on reduser, waiting for the abuse :-) 

It's very simple, if you set the camera to 310 settings etc as shown in the DV CM route then ACEScct will work in Resolve IF you set the raw setting to camera.

If you set the raw setting to manufacture or default it will not be right.

Now this may well be a case of BMD not implementing REDs SDK properly or it could be anything, I don't know.

I just know that it's what happens.

Thats the point of the tests, to find out what actually happens, not what should or what people think will happen.

Just the facts :-)


Rakesh Malik
 


As Sean pointed out, Red doesn't specify the color space and gamma when you use IPP2. They leave it up to the developers.

Since IPP2 uses RWGRGB + Log3G10 in camera, the correct defaults when the metadata specifies IPP2 but not the color space and gamma curve is the IPP2 color space and gamma curve, which is RWGRGB + Log3G10.

Anything else is therefore a bug, and serves only to create either extra work for those of us who already know what settings to use and confusion for those who don't.

I suspect that most people who are familiar with IPP2 just set the correct color space and gamma for IPP2 and forget that it should have been selected by default. In most software it's a once per project thing, so it's easy to just fix the settings and move on. In times when I've forgotten though, I've run into gamut clipping and surprise highlight clipping during grading when I've forgotten to update those settings.

-----------------------------


On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 11:23 PM Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote:
I've replied to this on reduser, waiting for the abuse :-) 

It's very simple, if you set the camera to 310 settings etc as shown in the DV CM route then ACEScct will work in Resolve IF you set the raw setting to camera.

If you set the raw setting to manufacture or default it will not be right.

Now this may well be a case of BMD not implementing REDs SDK properly or it could be anything, I don't know.

I just know that it's what happens.

Thats the point of the tests, to find out what actually happens, not what should or what people think will happen.

Just the facts :-)
_._,_._,