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What charts do we use?

Geoff Boyle #721 I’ve started this as a separate topic but it’s really part of the next camera tests. I tend not to use DSC Chroma du monde as it’s really a TV related chart. I had stopped using the X-Rite or Macbeth chart because it’s more aimed at print media but as so many people use it including the Academy I’ll include it. I will use the CML stress test as this is precisely what it was designed for. I will definitely use the DSC CamBelles chart as it is a consistent skin tone reference and there is no way I can use the same live models every time. Yes I get it, it was designed for 709 but it’s the best I can find. I like the DSC Chromamatch, it seems like a really good reference to me. I love my DSC VFX charts but they’re a bit old now and the expiry date will put people off even though they are only exposed to light for a few hours per year! My DSC One Shot is battered to hell and unusable. My G&D charts, which I used for a lot of the older CML tests, are equally battered. Although they only go +/- 2.5 stops they do it very clearly. I used to love the Kodak grey scale plus, 18% grey and 90% white with 3.1% black. Set the grey to 45% the white to 80% and the black to 20%. That would mean setting the mid grey to 460 instead of 512 but I can live with that 😊 The problem is that I can’t find this chart anymore. Finally, charts cost money DSC are incredibly helpful but I can’t push them too far! If you have a different chart you want me to use then send it to me, make that your donation to the camera tests!! Cheers Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS Cinematographer Netherlands www.gboyle.nl
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Daniel Henríquez-Ilic <dhisur@...> #722 Hi Geoff, The Kodak Gray Card Plus would currently be available through B&H New York. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/813250-REG/Kodak_1277144_Gray_Card_Plus_9x12.html Best regards, Daniel Henríquez Ilic Film Photographer Post-Producer / Consultant Fotoquímica Films Santiago de Chile toggle quoted messageShow quoted text El lunes, 18 de junio de 2018, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> escribió: I used to love the Kodak grey scale plus, 18% grey and 90% white with 3.1% black. Set the grey to 45% the white to 80% and the black to 20%. That would mean setting the mid grey to 460 instead of 512 but I can live with that 😊 The problem is that I can’t find this chart anymore,_
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Geoff Boyle #723 I’ve just ordered one, I didn’t prepay tax as that was a total rip-off, I’ll deal with that here! Now Art and I can argue where the grey should be. I made a very good living from commercials by insisting that levels of dailies were set exactly as specified by Kodak. I’ll continue to do that 😊 Cheers Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS Cinematographer Netherlands www.gboyle.nl toggle quoted messageShow quoted text From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> On Behalf Of Daniel Henríquez-Ilic Sent: 18 June 2018 07:41 To: cml-raw-log-hdr@... Subject: [cml-raw-log-hdr] What charts do we use? Hi Geoff, The Kodak Gray Card Plus would currently be available through B&H New York. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/813250-REG/Kodak_1277144_Gray_Card_Plus_9x12.html Best regards, Daniel Henríquez Ilic Film Photographer Post-Producer / Consultant Fotoquímica Films Santiago de Chile El lunes, 18 de junio de 2018, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> escribió: I used to love the Kodak grey scale plus, 18% grey and 90% white with 3.1% black. Set the grey to 45% the white to 80% and the black to 20%. That would mean setting the mid grey to 460 instead of 512 but I can live with that 😊 The problem is that I can’t find this chart anymore,_
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John Brawley #724 This is my favourite card, and it has some ingenious features. It’s called a fotowand 4930. It’s like a grey card, but it also has “patches’ of C and M and over and under exposure so it more accurately reflects a magenta or cyan bias in the lighting used to light the card. If there’s a swing in either way the patch will tend to disappear into the grey. It’s a brilliant idea. Fotowand seem to make cards for machine vision situations more than imaging that we do. Be very warned the website is neigh on impossible to work with. Anders at the DOP shop used to sell them but he’s sadly no more. The website of the manufacturer is so incomprehensible it’s hard to make sense. And I defy anyone to try and make sense of it. Here’s the English PDF for the one I like to use but they make some other cool ones. http://www.fotowand.de/pdfs/4930-4958-eng.pdf They also make an interesting skin tone chart which I also have. http://www.fotowand.de/pdfs/4931-eng.pdf And the site itself http://www.fotowand.de/ This is the site if you want to try and order some. I’ll happily pay but I don’t think I can navigate the site well enough. Anyone else good with German ? John Brawley Atlanta Georgia DP - The Resident Season 2 toggle quoted messageShow quoted text On Jun 18, 2018, at 3:25 PM, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote: I’ve started this as a separate topic but it’s really part of the next camera tests. Finally, charts cost money DSC are incredibly helpful but I can’t push them too far! If you have a different chart you want me to use then send it to me, make that your donation to the camera tests!!
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John Brawley #725 Oh, And I forgot to mention, I also really like the CUBE light trap. Great for keeping a black reference on a. Waveform at all exposures and seeing specular highlights (clipping) https://www.datacolor.com/photography-design/product-overview/spydercube/ I’ll ship you one. What’s the address ? :-) John Brawley Atlanta Georgia DP toggle quoted messageShow quoted text On Jun 18, 2018, at 3:25 PM, Geoff Boyle <geoff@...> wrote: Finally, charts cost money DSC are incredibly helpful but I can’t push them too far! If you have a different chart you want me to use then send it to me, make that your donation to the camera tests!!
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Colin Elves #726 The Sekonic exposure target II? It’s under £100, 25 grey chips with 18% grey in the middle then 2 stops above and below that as 12 separate chips each in 1/6 Stop increments. If you want to get super detailed about the point at which a camera hits white clip this is one to look at. https://www.photospecialist.co.uk/sekonic-401-757-exposure-profile-target-ii Colin Elves Director of Photography Berlin
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Geoff Boyle #727 OK, it now looks like:- Top row, DSC Chromamatch & CamBelles Second row, Sekonic, Kodak GS+, CML stress test, Info I have ordered Sekonic & Kodak charts. Cheers Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS Cinematographer Netherlands www.gboyle.nl toggle quoted messageShow quoted text From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> On Behalf Of Colin Elves Sent: 18 June 2018 09:11 To: cml-raw-log-hdr@... Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] What charts do we use? The Sekonic exposure target II? It’s under £100, 25 grey chips with 18% grey in the middle then 2 stops above and below that as 12 separate chips each in 1/6 Stop increments. If you want to get super detailed about the point at which a camera hits white clip this is one to look at. https://www.photospecialist.co.uk/sekonic-401-757-exposure-profile-target-ii Colin Elves Director of Photography Berlin
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Art Adams <art.cml.only@...> #730 Why would you use the Chromamatch? It's designed as a visual reference: you shoot the chart, overlay a digital reference image in post, and then match the background to the foreground by eye. This has several limitations: I'm guessing almost no one who views these tests is going to take the time to obtain the digital reference file, match the images by eye, and then view them. The final corrected image is limited to the dynamic range of the digital reference file. That file has a dynamic range of ~6 stops, as it is based off the true Rec 709 standard. This is not a good idea when shooting a test with a modern digital cinema camera with a dynamic range of ~14 stops, because—unlike a Chroma Du Monde, whose reference levels can be "fudged" and still provide useful information—there is exactly one way to use a Chromamatch. If the digital reference file is limited to ~6 stops, and you visually match the photographed chart to the digital file, you'll end up with an image with six stops of dynamic range and no highlight information above 2.4 stops over middle gray. The only option is to custom order a digital file, but then you'd be bending all the cameras to fit within that gamma and that defeats the purpose of a camera test. A chart that is meant to be matched to a visual reference can only ever be used one way, and that way is dictated by the visual reference. The chart will work on a vectorscope, but that's an accident as it's not meant to be used that way. It won't work at all on a waveform monitor as it's not laid out to give meaningful information in that way. A Chroma Du Monde has all the same hues (except for the super saturated ones, but those are just arbitrary high saturation hues and you have your custom chart for that), but the pattern is laid out such that color crossover issues are easily discerned when viewed on a waveform. It's an incredibly useful and flexible chart. Chromamatch can only be used one way, and it's not the way you'd be using it. toggle quoted messageShow quoted text On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 1:44 AM Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote: OK, it now looks like:- Top row, DSC Chromamatch & CamBelles Second row, Sekonic, Kodak GS+, CML stress test, Info I have ordered Sekonic & Kodak charts. -- Art Adams Director of Photography San Francisco Bay Area www.artadamsdp.com
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Geoff Boyle #733 I use a Chromamatch because i can easily see small variations on my monitor and it works really well with a vectorscope accident or not. I missed the Macbeth X-Rite chart off the list and it will actually be on the second row. If the six charts I'm using don't give you enough or the kind of information you want then I suggest you shoot your own tests. cheers Geoff Boyle NSC EU based cinematographer +31 637155076 www.gboyle.co.uk toggle quoted messageShow quoted text On Mon, 18 Jun 2018, 15:54 Art Adams, <art.cml.only@...> wrote: Why would you use the Chromamatch? It's designed as a visual reference: you shoot the chart, overlay a digital reference image in post, and then match the background to the foreground by eye. This has several limitations: I'm guessing almost no one who views these tests is going to take the time to obtain the digital reference file, match the images by eye, and then view them. The final corrected image is limited to the dynamic range of the digital reference file. That file has a dynamic range of ~6 stops, as it is based off the true Rec 709 standard. This is not a good idea when shooting a test with a modern digital cinema camera with a dynamic range of ~14 stops, because—unlike a Chroma Du Monde, whose reference levels can be "fudged" and still provide useful information—there is exactly one way to use a Chromamatch. If the digital reference file is limited to ~6 stops, and you visually match the photographed chart to the digital file, you'll end up with an image with six stops of dynamic range and no highlight information above 2.4 stops over middle gray. The only option is to custom order a digital file, but then you'd be bending all the cameras to fit within that gamma and that defeats the purpose of a camera test. A chart that is meant to be matched to a visual reference can only ever be used one way, and that way is dictated by the visual reference. The chart will work on a vectorscope, but that's an accident as it's not meant to be used that way. It won't work at all on a waveform monitor as it's not laid out to give meaningful information in that way. A Chroma Du Monde has all the same hues (except for the super saturated ones, but those are just arbitrary high saturation hues and you have your custom chart for that), but the pattern is laid out such that color crossover issues are easily discerned when viewed on a waveform. It's an incredibly useful and flexible chart. Chromamatch can only be used one way, and it's not the way you'd be using it. On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 1:44 AM Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote: OK, it now looks like:- Top row, DSC Chromamatch & CamBelles Second row, Sekonic, Kodak GS+, CML stress test, Info I have ordered Sekonic & Kodak charts. -- Art Adams Director of Photography San Francisco Bay Area www.artadamsdp.com
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Art Adams <art.cml.only@...> #737 You're using one chart in a way that it was never meant to be used, and I'm simply pointing out that there's another chart with the exact same colors on it (barring a couple super saturated hues that you already have on another chart) that is laid out in a way that provides more information that is valuable in any camera comparison. You certainly don't have to do anything with my input, but you did ask for it. -- Art Adams DP San Francisco Bay Area www.artadamsdp.com toggle quoted messageShow quoted text On Jun 18, 2018 at 7:33 AM, <Geoff Boyle> wrote: I use a Chromamatch because i can easily see small variations on my monitor and it works really well with a vectorscope accident or not. I missed the Macbeth X-Rite chart off the list and it will actually be on the second row. If the six charts I'm using don't give you enough or the kind of information you want then I suggest you shoot your own tests. cheers Geoff Boyle NSC EU based cinematographer +31 637155076 www.gboyle.co.uk On Mon, 18 Jun 2018, 15:54 Art Adams, <art.cml.only@...> wrote: Why would you use the Chromamatch? It's designed as a visual reference: you shoot the chart, overlay a digital reference image in post, and then match the background to the foreground by eye. This has several limitations: I'm guessing almost no one who views these tests is going to take the time to obtain the digital reference file, match the images by eye, and then view them. The final corrected image is limited to the dynamic range of the digital reference file. That file has a dynamic range of ~6 stops, as it is based off the true Rec 709 standard. This is not a good idea when shooting a test with a modern digital cinema camera with a dynamic range of ~14 stops, because—unlike a Chroma Du Monde, whose reference levels can be "fudged" and still provide useful information—there is exactly one way to use a Chromamatch. If the digital reference file is limited to ~6 stops, and you visually match the photographed chart to the digital file, you'll end up with an image with six stops of dynamic range and no highlight information above 2.4 stops over middle gray. The only option is to custom order a digital file, but then you'd be bending all the cameras to fit within that gamma and that defeats the purpose of a camera test. A chart that is meant to be matched to a visual reference can only ever be used one way, and that way is dictated by the visual reference. The chart will work on a vectorscope, but that's an accident as it's not meant to be used that way. It won't work at all on a waveform monitor as it's not laid out to give meaningful information in that way. A Chroma Du Monde has all the same hues (except for the super saturated ones, but those are just arbitrary high saturation hues and you have your custom chart for that), but the pattern is laid out such that color crossover issues are easily discerned when viewed on a waveform. It's an incredibly useful and flexible chart. Chromamatch can only be used one way, and it's not the way you'd be using it. On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 1:44 AM Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote: OK, it now looks like:- Top row, DSC Chromamatch & CamBelles Second row, Sekonic, Kodak GS+, CML stress test, Info I have ordered Sekonic & Kodak charts. -- Art Adams Director of Photography San Francisco Bay Area www.artadamsdp.com
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Geoff Boyle #738 And it’s the super saturated colours that give the cameras the most pain… I’ve replied to the input issue in a previous post. Cheers Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS Cinematographer Netherlands www.gboyle.nl toggle quoted messageShow quoted text From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> On Behalf Of Art Adams Sent: 18 June 2018 17:18 To: Cml-Raw-Log-Hdr <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] What charts do we use? You're using one chart in a way that it was never meant to be used, and I'm simply pointing out that there's another chart with the exact same colors on it (barring a couple super saturated hues that you already have on another chart) that is laid out in a way that provides more information that is valuable in any camera comparison. You certainly don't have to do anything with my input, but you did ask for it. -- Art Adams DP San Francisco Bay Area www.artadamsdp.com On Jun 18, 2018 at 7:33 AM, <Geoff Boyle> wrote: I use a Chromamatch because i can easily see small variations on my monitor and it works really well with a vectorscope accident or not. I missed the Macbeth X-Rite chart off the list and it will actually be on the second row. If the six charts I'm using don't give you enough or the kind of information you want then I suggest you shoot your own tests. cheers Geoff Boyle NSC EU based cinematographer +31 637155076 www.gboyle.co.uk On Mon, 18 Jun 2018, 15:54 Art Adams, <art.cml.only@...> wrote: Why would you use the Chromamatch? It's designed as a visual reference: you shoot the chart, overlay a digital reference image in post, and then match the background to the foreground by eye. This has several limitations: I'm guessing almost no one who views these tests is going to take the time to obtain the digital reference file, match the images by eye, and then view them. The final corrected image is limited to the dynamic range of the digital reference file. That file has a dynamic range of ~6 stops, as it is based off the true Rec 709 standard. This is not a good idea when shooting a test with a modern digital cinema camera with a dynamic range of ~14 stops, because—unlike a Chroma Du Monde, whose reference levels can be "fudged" and still provide useful information—there is exactly one way to use a Chromamatch. If the digital reference file is limited to ~6 stops, and you visually match the photographed chart to the digital file, you'll end up with an image with six stops of dynamic range and no highlight information above 2.4 stops over middle gray. The only option is to custom order a digital file, but then you'd be bending all the cameras to fit within that gamma and that defeats the purpose of a camera test. A chart that is meant to be matched to a visual reference can only ever be used one way, and that way is dictated by the visual reference. The chart will work on a vectorscope, but that's an accident as it's not meant to be used that way. It won't work at all on a waveform monitor as it's not laid out to give meaningful information in that way. A Chroma Du Monde has all the same hues (except for the super saturated ones, but those are just arbitrary high saturation hues and you have your custom chart for that), but the pattern is laid out such that color crossover issues are easily discerned when viewed on a waveform. It's an incredibly useful and flexible chart. Chromamatch can only be used one way, and it's not the way you'd be using it. On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 1:44 AM Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote: OK, it now looks like:- Top row, DSC Chromamatch & CamBelles Second row, Sekonic, Kodak GS+, CML stress test, Info I have ordered Sekonic & Kodak charts. -- Art Adams Director of Photography San Francisco Bay Area www.artadamsdp.com
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Mako Koiwai <mako1foto@...> #741 Will you be including a “real” Digital Imaging Technician for these tests? Makofoto, mountain top in the Prescott Forest, Arizona
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Geoff Boyle #743 What on earth for? Geoff toggle quoted messageShow quoted text On Mon, 18 Jun 2018, 18:53 Mako Koiwai, <mako1foto@...> wrote: Will you be including a “real” Digital Imaging Technician for these tests? Makofoto, mountain top in the Prescott Forest, Arizona
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Adam Wilt #747 I tend not to use DSC Chroma du monde as it’s really a TV related chart. … I like the DSC Chromamatch, it seems like a really good reference to me. The colors on the two charts are the same (though the ChromaMatch has six added high-saturation color patches, but they aren’t calibrated to a reference standard other than “these were as saturated as we could print”). Both are equally “TV-related charts” as far as color and grayscale patches are concerned. The difference is that the ChromaMatch is radially displayed (so it can be easily used with a ScreenAlign puck for visual comparisons without worrying about scaling). Unfortunately that means the stepped grayscale isn’t clearly displayed on a WFM; that stepped grayscale WFM display is a very useful graphic of how the tonal scale is being handled, especially at the extremes of exposure (see attached images). Maybe I’m the only one here who looks at pictures on a WFM, but I’d much prefer a CDM to a ChromaMatch. Better yet, use a Cine ChromaDuMonde (CCDM). It has one “Rec.709” gamma-scaled 11-sep grayscale, a logarithmic gray ramp, the usual CDM / ChromaMatch color patches, an 18% neutral gray reference, a “caviblack” black velvet light trap, and the six added high-sat patches used on the ChromaMatch: Cheers, Adam Wilt technical services: consulting / coding / camerawork Vancouver WA USA (no, not that Vancouver, the other one)
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Geoff Boyle #748 I’m losing the will to live. Send me every chart you want included and I’ll include it. I can’t be fairer than that. If you don’t send me your favourite charts I’ll use mine 😊 This is for everyone not just Adam. So, if you don’t send me the chart, lights, lenses etc you think I should use I’ll just get on with it. Cheers Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS Cinematographer Netherlands www.gboyle.nl toggle quoted messageShow quoted text From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> On Behalf Of Adam Wilt Sent: 18 June 2018 19:54 To: cml-raw-log-hdr@... Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] What charts do we use? I tend not to use DSC Chroma du monde as it’s really a TV related chart. … I like the DSC Chromamatch, it seems like a really good reference to me. The colors on the two charts are the same (though the ChromaMatch has six added high-saturation color patches, but they aren’t calibrated to a reference standard other than “these were as saturated as we could print”). Both are equally “TV-related charts” as far as color and grayscale patches are concerned. The difference is that the ChromaMatch is radially displayed (so it can be easily used with a ScreenAlign puck for visual comparisons without worrying about scaling). Unfortunately that means the stepped grayscale isn’t clearly displayed on a WFM; that stepped grayscale WFM display is a very useful graphic of how the tonal scale is being handled, especially at the extremes of exposure (see attached images). Maybe I’m the only one here who looks at pictures on a WFM, but I’d much prefer a CDM to a ChromaMatch. Better yet, use a Cine ChromaDuMonde (CCDM). It has one “Rec.709” gamma-scaled 11-sep grayscale, a logarithmic gray ramp, the usual CDM / ChromaMatch color patches, an 18% neutral gray reference, a “caviblack” black velvet light trap, and the six added high-sat patches used on the ChromaMatch: Cheers, Adam Wilt technical services: consulting / coding / camerawork Vancouver WA USA (no, not that Vancouver, the other one)
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Geoff Boyle #749 To get the information that I want I need the CML stress test and the Kodak Grey Scale Plus. Plus a motion indicator that I’m working on. That’s it, everything else is for the people who have requested or commented over the years. Cheers Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS Cinematographer Netherlands www.gboyle.nl _._,_._,_
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Mark Weingartner, ASC #750 On 18Jun, 2018, at 11:06 05, Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote: Plus a motion indicator that I’m working on. I have a fan with the front grill removed and different colored tape on each blade that I include in my camera tests with it set at its slowest setting - cheap, easy, inconclusive but indicative of what’s going on with the time differential between top of chip to bottom… and the low hum covers some of the muttering and swearing when I forget to set something properly and have to re-do a pass. weingartner LA
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Geoff Boyle #751 To get the information that I want I need the CML stress test and the Kodak Grey Scale Plus. Plus a motion indicator that I’m working on. That’s it, everything else is for the people who have requested or commented over the years. Cheers Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS Cinematographer Netherlands www.gboyle.nl
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Geoff Boyle #752 You’ll love what I’ve found for this. I’m thinking of buying a whole load of them and adding $100 to the price and selling them as camera motion checkers. Actually $500 would work better, never sell yourself cheap. Cheers Geoff Boyle NSC FBKS Cinematographer Netherlands www.gboyle.nl toggle quoted messageShow quoted text From: cml-raw-log-hdr@... <cml-raw-log-hdr@...> On Behalf Of Mark Weingartner, ASC Sent: 18 June 2018 20:29 To: cml-raw-log-hdr@... Subject: Re: [cml-raw-log-hdr] What charts do we use? On 18Jun, 2018, at 11:06 05, Geoff Boyle <geoff.cml@...> wrote: Plus a motion indicator that I’m working on. I have a fan with the front grill removed and different colored tape on each blade that I include in my camera tests with it set at its slowest setting - cheap, easy, inconclusive but indicative of what’s going on with the time differential between top of chip to bottom… and the low hum covers some of the muttering and swearing when I forget to set something properly and have to re-do a pass. weingartner LA
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Mark Sasahara #753 "I’m losing the will to live." We must all suffer for our Art. This week, it's your turn. :~) Everything is changing all the time, cameras, sensors, formats, codecs, media, storage, testing tools and methods, standards, blah, blah, blah. It's gonna get real ugly, real fast. I/We really appreciate all that you do. That you are doing a comprehensive camera test is amazing. That you keep on doing it and keep including us in the process is painful, but ultimately worth it. You could tell us to piss off and that we should be happy anyone is doing it at all, but you know that you're aiming an unreliable "gun" at a moving target, so you slog on. Your quest for thoroughness, accuracy and improvement is highly commendable and greatly appreciated. There used to be a magazine called Photo Methods. On the last page was "The Answer Man", who answered reader's technical questions. He always stated that he didn't know all of the answers, but he knew enough people that he could get the answer. CML is the same thing. That's the beauty of this forum: being able to speak with the best eyes and minds in the business, from around the world. Excellence on tap. Hang in there, Geoff! We need you! Does inclusion of a DSC XYLA 21, or 26 stop high dynamic range chart make sense? Unfortunately, they're crazy expensive. Mark Sasahara, DP, NYC toggle quoted messageShow quoted text _._,_.
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